Confused by Draft Pick Compensation

[Matt Arnold]

Feel free to send it to my dropbox if that's easier: https://www.dropbox.com/request/yRxTitawf2CVGb371QSa

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

Feel free to send it to my dropbox if that's easier: https://www.dropbox.com/request/yRxTitawf2CVGb371QSa

Thanks for the dropbox thingy. For some reason that worked, but the FTP site did not. The file is called actionjackson's HRD.zip.

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

Thanks for the dropbox thingy. For some reason that worked, but the FTP site did not. The file is called actionjackson's HRD.zip.

Thanks, I'll have a look and see what I can figure out

[hefalumps]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

Totally get the first point. Crystal clear.

But...In your second example, what happens to the pick that STL should've gotten from NYY?

They forfeit that pick to BOS after they signed a BOS FA. In real life, the pick from NYY would have been protected, but in OOTP it's not.

Originally Posted by actionjackson

Factoring in that the Yankees have already lost a pick to BOS as a result of them signing a STL free agent, and that pick being STL's highest unprotected pick. Surely you can't make NYY give up two picks for signing one free agent. Yet if you don't, STL is S.O.L. and they don't get compensation for losing a free agent to NYY.

OK, so original draft order is like this:

NYY - 12th
STL - 16th
BOS - 18th

1) On 11/15, NYY signs a Type A from STL, so now STL gets the 12th overall pick to go along with its 16th overall pick it already has. NYY won't get a first round pick unless someone signs one of their Type As. So it's like this:

STL - 12th
STL - 16th
BOS - 18th

2) On 11/30, STL signs a Type A from BOS. In real life, the 12th pick STL got from NYY would be protected, and BOS would receive STL's original first round pick, which was the 16th overall pick. But OOTP doesn't protect the compensation pick from NYY, so BOS gets that 12th pick instead. Now it's like this:

BOS - 12th
STL - 16th
BOS - 18th

So NYY isn't losing an additional pick - as soon as they signed the FA from STL and forfeited the 12th pick, that was that - they either need to wait until the supplemental round or round 2, or hope that someone signs one of their Type A FAs and gives them a compensation first rounder. And STL is only getting moderately screwed, as BOS should have been awarded the 16th overall pick instead of the 12th overall pick. In other words, in real life it should be:

STL - 12th
BOS - 16th
BOS - 18th

Maybe in future versions OOTP can put in some logic to protect compensation picks, but since the CBA rules change this process every time, it might be too hard to keep up with. We might just have to live with some of these quirks, but it does help to understand the quirks so you can plan ahead.

I got burnt in my league recently on this - I tried to sign my Type A FAs early in the offseason so that when other teams signed my Type As, I wouldn't have to give up the compensation pick I got from them. And one of my departing Type As signed with another team and gave me the 18th overall pick as compensation *JUST ONE DAY* before one of the Type As I was pursuing agreed to sign with me. So since my original 1st round pick was 26th, I lost that juicy 18th overall compensation pick I'd just gotten!!

Anyway, hope you get it all figured out with Matt - good luck!

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by bwburke94

What were the changes in 2007?

In terms of free agents and compensation:

(1985?) 1990-2006
Type A free agents: Top 30%; draft pick from signing team plus special pick between 1st and 2nd round
Type B free agents: 31%-50%; draft pick from signing team
Type C free agents: 51%-60%; special draft pick between 2nd and 3rd round
Unranked free agents: 61% and below; no compensation

2007-2011
Type A free agents: Top 20%; draft pick from signing team plus special pick between 1st and 2nd round
Type B free agents: 21%-40%; special pick between 1st and 2nd round
Unranked free agents: 41% and below; no compensation

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

Thanks for the dropbox thingy. For some reason that worked, but the FTP site did not. The file is called actionjackson's HRD.zip.

You don't have a backup from before you imported the draft order, right? After import it wipes out all the data that we stored in there.

I'm guessing what might be happening is that the game is getting confused about protected picks or not. Since in the off-season when the guys get signed away, the game is probably thinking the protected picks are based on the 1905 standings, but then when you go to do the actual draft, it will end up based on 1906 standings. But that's only a guess. And it still doesn't explain the lack of supplemental picks. All this is just really weird.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

You don't have a backup from before you imported the draft order, right? After import it wipes out all the data that we stored in there.

I'm guessing what might be happening is that the game is getting confused about protected picks or not. Since in the off-season when the guys get signed away, the game is probably thinking the protected picks are based on the 1905 standings, but then when you go to do the actual draft, it will end up based on 1906 standings. But that's only a guess. And it still doesn't explain the lack of supplemental picks. All this is just really weird.

So do you mean what it looked like before the first day of the offseason, or what it looked like on the first day of the offseason? Tell you what: I'll upload the draft order as it looks on September 17th, 1907, and what it looks like on the first day of the offseason (using the .dat files to your dropbox site), and we can compare, and see what's going on. Going to be a bit tricky though. There are 26 Type A free agents, and 18 Type B free agents in the 1906/1907 offseason free agent pool. Tons of possibilities for the game to stumble over if it is in fact the game that is stumbling, and not the player of the game. Rather than write down the list of 44 free agents, I'll attach a spreadsheet here with them from November 10th, 1906 (free agent filing day). Please scroll down to 1906/1907 Offseason because for some reason it won't open there.

[actionjackson]

I think I'm just going to take the comp picks as they come and the supplemental round as is. I will change the basic draft order because sometimes (when there's a tie in records) it seems out of order to me. It all just makes my brain hurt. I will however upload the .dat files on the two different dates to the dropbox site to see if there's anything in there that if changed can help OOTP get better, if that's what's needed.

[Matt Arnold]

I think I might just redo a lot of how we process picks. Right now we kind of try to process some stuff as it comes in, and then some stuff when the draft comes along. I think by moving all the logic to when we actually generate draft orders, that will help.

At least, hopefully it doesn't screw things up more. Probably there will be some weird cases if you have the pre-2012 CBA and draft pick trading enabled, but hopefully weird things are kept to a minimum...

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

I think I might just redo a lot of how we process picks. Right now we kind of try to process some stuff as it comes in, and then some stuff when the draft comes along. I think by moving all the logic to when we actually generate draft orders, that will help.

At least, hopefully it doesn't screw things up more. Probably there will be some weird cases if you have the pre-2012 CBA and draft pick trading enabled, but hopefully weird things are kept to a minimum...

I don't use draft pick trading, as I read somewhere that having both compensation picks for lost free agents and draft pick trading enabled can get a little bit...hairy.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

I think I might just redo a lot of how we process picks. Right now we kind of try to process some stuff as it comes in, and then some stuff when the draft comes along. I think by moving all the logic to when we actually generate draft orders, that will help.

At least, hopefully it doesn't screw things up more. Probably there will be some weird cases if you have the pre-2012 CBA and draft pick trading enabled, but hopefully weird things are kept to a minimum...

Draft orders will still be generated on the first day of the offseason though right? In other words, they'll be based on the most recently completed season. Otherwise I can't use my tiebreaker methods in the event of multiple teams having the same record.

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

Draft orders will still be generated on the first day of the offseason though right? In other words, they'll be based on the most recently completed season. Otherwise I can't use my tiebreaker methods in the event of multiple teams having the same record.

The final draft order is set on draft day, but yes, it should be based on the most recent season.

[JaBurns]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

Draft orders will still be generated on the first day of the offseason though right? In other words, they'll be based on the most recently completed season. Otherwise I can't use my tiebreaker methods in the event of multiple teams having the same record.

Reading this my not only making my 🧠 hurt but also discouraging me for ever messing with anything that even hints of draft pick compensation in any way, shape or form.

[hefalumps]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

I will change the basic draft order because sometimes (when there's a tie in records) it seems out of order to me.

That was another thing I noticed in my observations I made back in OOTP16... when there was a tie in the standings, it seemed to be random chance as to which team was first in the draft order and which was second. At one point I thought it was alphabetical or reverse alphabetical, but neither pattern held - I could always find an example to contradict. Tried looking at tiebreakers like H2H season record and that didn't seem to be consistent either.

Matt, if you do retool all the draft compensation stuff at some point, please make a big, giant, bulleted point of it in the patch or game changelog description - I will want to monitor closely the first few drafts afterwards to make sure I update my notes with the new way things work!

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by JaBurns

Reading this my not only making my 🧠 hurt but also discouraging me for ever messing with anything that even hints of draft pick compensation in any way, shape or form.

Now you know how we feel If we do it right, don't worry about it. You lose a pick or gain a pick depending on who gets signed, and we should do that properly.

But yes, I think I've simplified a little of the logic so that it's easier to calculate, we won't screw up assigning them around on the fly. And a bonus - we should actually be able to give away picks properly now if a team signs multiple type-A guys in the same year - it won't be based on when they sign anymore!

If I'm still happy with this early next week, I might even try to get the new compensation rules too, although those add a mess of new issues on their own...

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by hefalumps

That was another thing I noticed in my observations I made back in OOTP16... when there was a tie in the standings, it seemed to be random chance as to which team was first in the draft order and which was second. At one point I thought it was alphabetical or reverse alphabetical, but neither pattern held - I could always find an example to contradict. Tried looking at tiebreakers like H2H season record and that didn't seem to be consistent either.

Matt, if you do retool all the draft compensation stuff at some point, please make a big, giant, bulleted point of it in the patch or game changelog description - I will want to monitor closely the first few drafts afterwards to make sure I update my notes with the new way things work!

Yes, I believe previously it was either random or on some sort of internal ID sort order. Before release this year (or when I last played with draft pick stuff this year), that was fixed so that it goes by the current MLB rules (as I understand them), which is that if teams are tied, then the sort order will be their previous year's record. So in 2017 TB, LAA, and KC were tied at 80 wins each, so the draft order between those 3 are based on their 2016 records.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

Yes, I believe previously it was either random or on some sort of internal ID sort order. Before release this year (or when I last played with draft pick stuff this year), that was fixed so that it goes by the current MLB rules (as I understand them), which is that if teams are tied, then the sort order will be their previous year's record. So in 2017 TB, LAA, and KC were tied at 80 wins each, so the draft order between those 3 are based on their 2016 records.

Re: the bolded part, thank you for this. I did not know this and I had been doing it wrong, so I'll keep an eye on it from now on and make sure it gets done right, but great to see it in there.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

Before release this year (or when I last played with draft pick stuff this year), that was fixed so that it goes by the current MLB rules (as I understand them), which is that if teams are tied, then the sort order will be their previous year's record. So in 2017 TB, LAA, and KC were tied at 80 wins each, so the draft order between those 3 are based on their 2016 records.

And if the clubs were also tied in 2016, then the 2015 standings would be used, and so on. That's been the rule in use for some time now, though at one point ties were broken by lot. (I'd have to look up exactly when that change occurred.)

It should be remembered too that, prior to 2005, draft selections alternated by league. This was true for both the amateur draft and the Rule 5 draft.

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

Probably there will be some weird cases if you have the pre-2012 CBA and draft pick trading enabled, but hopefully weird things are kept to a minimum...

Perhaps taking a look at how other leagues that do have draft trading and free agent draft compensation handle which picks can be traded, and when, might be helpful in guiding what OOTP should do in such non-MLB scenarios.