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Old 02-15-2012, 11:56 PM   #21
Le Grande Orange
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I think you misunderstood me. What i ment was the game can handle 19th century expansion and teams folding.
I still am not understanding what the evidence is for this.

In any case, don't forget about the leagues. You start with the NA, then that folds. The NL is then created. The AA comes along in 1882 but then folds after 1891 leaving only one league again. Then the AL comes along in 1901 and it's back to two leagues.

Historical leagues are set up as subleagues and those cannot be added and removed from a league, at least in regards to the automatic way historical leagues work.

(The odd number of teams shouldn't be an issue at all, using either the as played schedules or the original schedules. For the latter, the team that drops out has its schedule taken over by the team replacing it, which is exactly what happened in real life.)
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Old 02-16-2012, 12:27 AM   #22
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I still am not understanding what the evidence is for this.

In any case, don't forget about the leagues. You start with the NA, then that folds. The NL is then created. The AA comes along in 1882 but then folds after 1891 leaving only one league again. Then the AL comes along in 1901 and it's back to two leagues.
Simple and none of that is problem. Just change all NA, UA, PL team abbreviations to NL. Change AA to AL teams. Do the same for batting, pitching and fielding. U have to disable playoffs or all-star game at times but those didnt exist much back then anyway.
Its easier to leave AA by itself because of the odd number of teams. Just put the UA, PL in a western division of the NL. The NA can just be renamed as the NL or as the NL all together.
Of course UA, PL schedules would have to be combined with NL. But your as played schedules really help imo keeping a league accurate. Its just having automatic transactions would really make it easier on 19th century play as you could concentrate on other things like league settings.
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Old 02-16-2012, 01:10 AM   #23
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How about this for an oddity......Why don't we ask Markus to give us real 19th Century play. He has always said no before. He said no just a couple of months ago. Maybe if he gets 118,431 e-mails asking to have this adjusted he will say yes?

Could it hurt?

I realize a gazillion plus 7 work-arounds exist like are noted in the immediately previous missive. It would be far far better to have REAL rather than FAKE rather than WORK-AROUNDS. Out-Of-The-Box. Like Cap'n Crunch.
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Old 02-16-2012, 09:51 AM   #24
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I think we understand its a work- around but what we dont is what would Markus have to code? What is different in the transaction file from when we use a work-around database to have 19th century players going to correct teams. Isnt it the same thing?

The work- around works great. All the teams show up and players go to correct teams. If u are using as played schedules and actual transaction then that also helps from teams running out of players.
If a team didnt have many players cause it folded during the season it would be the same in historical play.
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Old 02-16-2012, 03:54 PM   #25
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Simple and none of that is problem. Just change all NA, UA, PL team abbreviations to NL. Change AA to AL teams. Do the same for batting, pitching and fielding. U have to disable playoffs or all-star game at times but those didnt exist much back then anyway.
Uh, the point is to have 19th century play without having to do any of that. The fact that you have to do such workarounds is testament to the fact OOTP cannot do it on its own (which is what I said). It also strikes me as a little odd to want real 19th century transactions when you have to do such unrealistic things to the league structures.
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Old 02-16-2012, 05:16 PM   #26
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If anyone wants an Excel version of the 19th Century transaction database IM me please. It is on my ftp site.
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Old 02-16-2012, 05:31 PM   #27
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Uh, the point is to have 19th century play without having to do any of that. The fact that you have to do such workarounds is testament to the fact OOTP cannot do it on its own (which is what I said). It also strikes me as a little odd to want real 19th century transactions when you have to do such unrealistic things to the league structures.
The work around is easy to do and once its done u dont have to worry about the correct teams showing. Its just the same as modern expansion. Whats a pain is doing all the actual transactions for historical play. Its the same as it was for modern leagues before the transaction file helped.

Whats the difference between that work-around and the one that comes with the game. Its edited too. I think it just needs to be updated. Because i believe Garlon did it before we knew expansion would work. At the time we were just trying to get 19th century play into the game.
So if we make an updated database with the changes in abbreviation the game will handle it and next year maybe it could come with the game. But theres not much Markus can do if someone trys to us 5 man rotations in 19th century leagues and expect the same results as real life.
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Old 02-17-2012, 10:18 PM   #28
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LGO,
Why do you see it as unrealistic? Isnt having the actual teams in each league more realistic than having a 4 team AL and NL in 1871. Not putting that down cause it was the best anyone could do at the time but i think we can do better now.
You dont have to have the UA or PL in a western division, i just thought it might keep rhe history of the league from being screwed up. Other than that you have the same structure as it was in real life. Only difference is choosing stuff like playoffs.
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Old 02-18-2012, 03:34 AM   #29
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LGO, Why do you see it as unrealistic? Isnt having the actual teams in each league more realistic than having a 4 team AL and NL in 1871.
Maybe I'm not understanding your process correctly. How do you handle 1871-81 and 1892-1900 when there was only one league? An empty subleague?
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Old 02-18-2012, 08:12 AM   #30
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Maybe I'm not understanding your process correctly. How do you handle 1871-81 and 1892-1900 when there was only one league? An empty subleague?
Yep. You gotta make sure things like all star game are off.
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Old 02-18-2012, 03:08 PM   #31
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An empty sub-league do the works, but as a downside your award history will look bad as the game choose award winners even for empty league. Unless I've miss something to prevent this...
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Old 02-18-2012, 03:37 PM   #32
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True but they didnt have the Cy Young Award back then. Isnt that the same as awarding a player the Cy Young back then before Cy even played. It would be nice if the hiatory kept the progression of award names. But id rather have historical accuracy than another sub lwague to have awards that didnt exist back then.
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Old 02-21-2012, 04:41 AM   #33
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Yes, I too think it can handle teams folding as you note BUT Markus says it can't. He must know something we don't.
I haven't tried the modded DB in 12 but in 11 the answer was yes and no. When teams folded they disappeared and history reflected properly. The problem was teams did not release players, scouts, nor coaches. The only way to find these guys was to go to free agents then show all players then click on the dead team. After that you had to manually release all players the coaches and manager were still stuck. For 12 I decided manually deleting and adding teams was much easier.

Technically it can contract but the players all go into a black hole. They may or may not release when they become free agents. I would assume with the reserve clause in 12 that would mean never. This is really the only part that needs to be fixed that teams are deleted properly when they fold. My assumption is few 19th century players have made this a low priority. The boards seem to reflect a growing number of people interested in playing the era so that part might change.
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Old 02-21-2012, 04:45 AM   #34
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Simple and none of that is problem. Just change all NA, UA, PL team abbreviations to NL. Change AA to AL teams. Do the same for batting, pitching and fielding.
IIRC, only the team file needs to be altered. The batting, pitching, and fielding files only use the team ID not the league. The team files need to be altered because there to match the structure of the league.

Ideally, 19th century play would be able to fold and create new leagues automatically but that would be a major recode of stuff I that has been there forever.
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Old 02-21-2012, 08:44 AM   #35
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IIRC, only the team file needs to be altered. The batting, pitching, and fielding files only use the team ID not the league. The team files need to be altered because there to match the structure of the league.

Ideally, 19th century play would be able to fold and create new leagues automatically but that would be a major recode of stuff I that has been there forever.
I think you do have to change the league id in the batting, pitching, fielding. Because if you dont players will have to be drafted and wont go to their original teams.
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Old 02-21-2012, 01:38 PM   #36
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In 11 I only changed teams and it worked. I am pretty sure that the file only looks at team ID and not league ID. Now in teams.csv you have to have them in NL or AL or the team won't exist. As longer there exists a team with the team ID SL4 for instance the game will put them on the Saint Louis Browns.

For instance in the stock batting file adamsji01 is listed as playing for SL4 AA. If the game looked at the league ID he would be imported as a free agent in the standard historical game. I started a historical game in 1890 with no inaugural draft. Jim Adams shows up with the Saint Louis Browns on their reserve roster despite the fact the batting file has his league ID as AA. The batting file has NA, AA, etc. yet the players get imported to a historical game on the correct team if the team exist.

If I start 1871 without a draft then all the players are on the right team for those exist. All of these players have NA for league ID. The files other than teams seem to be unaltered from the Lahman files. Yet Baltimore, Brooklyn, and all the other teams that did not exist in 1871 are empty. The players who played for teams who did not exist are in the FA pool.

Another example staring 1871 with the quasi-historical setup, the Boston Red Stockings exist in the out of the box setup. Al Spalding is spaldal01. The batting file lists the following, spaldal01 1871 1 BS1 NA. Yet he imports just fine to BS1 when you start the game with no inaugural draft. The game does not look at league ID when it imports players just team ID. The only way Spalding would go to the FA pool in 1871 is if changed Boston's team ID to say BSN, a later ID for Boston.

Last edited by Biggio509; 02-21-2012 at 01:40 PM.
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Old 02-23-2012, 09:43 PM   #37
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I tried just changing the league ID for teams but it wouldnt even import. But oh well if the other way works im not gonna mess with it.

Last edited by BaseballMan; 03-02-2012 at 08:09 PM.
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:25 PM   #38
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How about this for an oddity......Why don't we ask Markus to give us real 19th Century play. He has always said no before. He said no just a couple of months ago. Maybe if he gets 118,431 e-mails asking to have this adjusted he will say yes?

Could it hurt?

I realize a gazillion plus 7 work-arounds exist like are noted in the immediately previous missive. It would be far far better to have REAL rather than FAKE rather than WORK-AROUNDS. Out-Of-The-Box. Like Cap'n Crunch.
Yes, please. I'll even spring for the milk. I would love automatic 19th century.
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Old 03-01-2012, 11:40 PM   #39
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I tried just changing the league ID for teams but it wouldny even import. But oh well if the other way works im not gonna mess with it.
In 12 or earlier versions? This worked for me in 11. Haven't really tried it in 12 but the files seem to be working with the standard lahman for batting and pitching. Well unless the .obd is different but it shouldn't be.
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:17 PM   #40
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I found (by accident) that the teams.csv is not in the odb so you can change it easily and changes made there show up in the game.
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