BZ 1810: Low endurance pitchers starting

[AirmenSmith]

The problem I am having is that my manager keeps putting in pitchers with low endurance in the starting rotation. I have 6 SP's on the roster all with endurance of at least 60. Every season it keeps getting worse with this problem. It went from guys with 50 endurance starting to 40 to know 33 endurance being put in the starting rotation.

Is there something else that gets figured into a guy being put in the starting rotation? I sim every game and let my manager decide the rotation. When I ask my bench coach to make the lineup he does the same thing to. Thanks for any help.

[pstrickert]

I'll re-post here what I posted on the beta board (which, not surprisingly, received no response) . . .


1969 Lahman Import - 1 Year Recalc - Real Stats

Should Steve Barber -- a player with an Endurance rating of 19 (out of 250) -- be able to make 42 starts and throw 256 innings?

NOTE: He also has a 5-star rating!!!

Screenshot 1: Editor
Screenshot 2: Real life stats
Screenshot 3: Pitching stats (1969 = sim totals)

[Nutlaw]

Well, these may be two different issues. In OOTP9, players with 25-50 endurance on the 100 scale are now able to start at a reduced ability. A player with 19 on the 250 scale may be something else entirely.

So endurance ratings are calculated to the old scale wherein 50 was the minimum for starters. Should historical leagues then not allow pitchers with less than 50 endurance start?

[AirmenSmith]

See I think there is one way to fix this whole problem. If when a guy is listed as a MR he will only be a MR. If a guy is listed as a SP he will only be an SP. CP will only be a CP. If the computer would just look at those before it sets a lineup then we won't have this problem anymore.

[AirmenSmith]

just a bump because I was wondering if this is a bug or if it is intended. Oh and instead of the 33 endurance guy starting in the rotation now I have a 22 endurance guy starting.

[Nutlaw]

Bz 1810

[GamerOfTheWorld]

I know this has been logged, but I'd figure I'd chime in and perhaps offer some helpful info. I am experiencing this problem as well. All across my league the AI is playing pitchers with low endurance ratings as starters (3-4 on a 10 scale). These pitchers are not gassing out after 40 or 50 pitches; in fact they seem to be as capable of throwing 100 or more pitches as high-endurance pitchers before becoming fatigued. This is really jarring because it basically means the endurance rating is meaningless, and there's nothing to distinguish a starter from a reliever. Coaches/scouts off, pitcher endurance setting at low, league modifiers at default.

Here a few examples (none of these guys are on my team):
ImageShack - Hosting :: pitcher1cn3.jpg
ImageShack - Hosting :: pitcher2jb1.jpg
ImageShack - Hosting :: pitcher3iz8.jpg.

[sterjs]

Originally Posted by Nutlaw

Well, these may be two different issues. In OOTP9, players with 25-50 endurance on the 100 scale are now able to start at a reduced ability. A player with 19 on the 250 scale may be something else entirely.

In practice, a plethora of MR/CL with endurance under 10(20 scale) have stuff, movement, control much better than all but the very best SP and put up big VORP numbers in starting roles.

[Nutlaw]

Originally Posted by sterjs

In practice, a plethora of MR/CL with endurance under 10(20 scale) have stuff, movement, control much better than all but the very best SP and put up big VORP numbers in starting roles.

Though presumably their numbers aren't quite as good as if they were relievers. Obviously their VORP will be higher because they are pitching more, however.

[sterjs]

Originally Posted by Nutlaw

Though presumably their numbers aren't quite as good as if they were relievers. Obviously their VORP will be higher because they are pitching more, however.

Well, VORP is what matters as that is a measure of their overall contribution to the team. You can get 3-4x as much value starting top relievers as you can using them in relief. This is very problematic because top relievers are far more plentiful than top starting pitchers.

Here is a guy I drafted with the 74th overall pick:



League average ERA was 3.90-4.12 in those seasons (He was only 25 in the first season where he put up a 3.45 ERA). There are numerous examples of guys like this who I or the AI have drafted and used in a SP role. The AI lineup selection actually sticks guys like this in for you, so you can't even avoid cheating unless you set your own lineups.

There are a number of problems that combine to create this issue:

1. Endurance doesn't matter as much as it should.
2. Reliever production is normalized for these very high stuff/movement/control ratings.
3. Too many great relievers are generated. In reality, except for a few closers, most pitching prospects are drafted as potential starters and those who can't hang become relievers.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by GamerOfTheWorld

This is really jarring because it basically means the endurance rating is meaningless, and there's nothing to distinguish a starter from a reliever.

I totally agree. I think it's great that Markus tweaked things for ootp9 to allow relievers to start games, but I think he overdid it a bit. I think a bit of a correction is needed to lower the effectiveness of relievers after, say, the 50/60 pitch count.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by sterjs

There are a number of problems that combine to create this issue:

1. Endurance doesn't matter as much as it should.
2. Reliever production is normalized for these very high stuff/movement/control ratings.
3. Too many great relievers are generated. In reality, except for a few closers, most pitching prospects are drafted as potential starters and those who can't hang become relievers.

3 very good points

[darkcloud4579]

This game has generated 1) too many middle relievers and 2) too many great ones for ages now. We've been banging the drum for ages that PITCHERS should be PITCHERS. Not SP, MR and CL, but just plain pitchers and let endurance determine their role and be done with it.

Alas, the ears are deaf.

[Nutlaw]

Markus states that this is working just fine for him. If someone would like to upload some examples of problem leagues, that's the only step I can suggest.

[Mr_Cheeze]

Shouldn't relief pitchers also increase their probability for injury in situations where they are used beyond their supposed endurance. That would be more realistic.

Also, has the issue of being able to "stretch" a pitcher's endurance during spring training been brought up?

[Nutlaw]

Originally Posted by Mr_Cheeze

Also, has the issue of being able to "stretch" a pitcher's endurance during spring training been brought up?

Yes, but not implemented at this time.

[Gator]

Just curious, was this addressed with OOTP X?

[Nutlaw]

The pitching model has been revised, so I don't believe that this particular issue should exist.

[Gator]

Thanks, this fix will be a very nice improvement.