Update from 9/21/18

[drksd4848]

Will there be a 2D animation component a la what we see in Draft Day Sports PF?

[Sharkn20]

Originally Posted by drksd4848

Will there be a 2D animation component a la what we see in Draft Day Sports PF?

Read few posts above

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[gaseous clay]

I still hope to one day see a FOF TCY2. With the day-by-day format, a dream would be both college & pro integrated into the same game similar to how OOTP has multiple leagues & movement of coaches/players between them (though in this, of course have college players would simply feed the pro league.)

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by gaseous clay

I still hope to one day see a FOF TCY2. With the day-by-day format, a dream would be both college & pro integrated into the same game similar to how OOTP has multiple leagues & movement of coaches/players between them (though in this, of course have college players would simply feed the pro league.)

That would indeed be cool. We'd have to have a second simulation engine in the game because college football is so different to the NFL. But who knows, maybe one day in the distant future.... we'll see

[Cole]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

That would indeed be cool. We'd have to have a second simulation engine in the game because college football is so different to the NFL. But who knows, maybe one day in the distant future.... we'll see

College (and high school) baseball is obviously much different than the pros too but this is handled nicely in OOTP via player and league modifiers (I think anyways. . don't believe there is a second engine). Hopefully something similar can be adapted for FOF one day.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

That would indeed be cool. We'd have to have a second simulation engine in the game because college football is so different to the NFL. But who knows, maybe one day in the distant future.... we'll see

couldn't you possibly use modifiers similar to those found in OOTP?...or is the FOF simulation engine so vastly different that it couldn't be done?

[01010010]

i know it’s not reasonable to expect a college football component at this point, but what I’d really like to see is have the upcoming draft class created early such as the start of preseason rather than having it created in the post season stage as it’s always been. I think in FOF the draft class creation is a totally independent function, so there’s no reason it *has* to be done at the end of the season.

So starting off the season you’d have a list of the top 10 QBs, RBs, etc (something like ootp’s top prospects list). The ratings and combine scores would obviously be hidden at this point, but at least you’d have an idea of the upcoming rookie class, rather than having them appear out of nowhere after the season. The data is already out there of roughly what percentage of top prospects come from which states and which schools. So I’m not talking about any big change — FOF already does exactly this, generates a draft class at the end of the season with rankings of the top prospects overall and by position. I’m just saying do this prior to the season rather then after. You can even have a basic player card with height, weight, school, facegen picture, whatever info you want to reveal.

Then just spit out random stats for each player every weak. Not simulate an actual college football season in the background, but we know the average stats for the top QB in the SEC, PAC 12, etc, and standard deviation, so just spit out an essentially random stat line for each player based on the hidden ratings and combine scores. Just showing the guys who will be in the next draft and letting them build up a semi-random stat line so you don’t have a draft class appear out of thin air after the season. Maybe have the prospect list be dynamic. Then after the season you’ve have the “combine” which would just be a “reveal” of the combine scores and estimated ratings the same way it’s always been done.

It’s really nothing but window dressing, just a dice roll and result based on averages and standard deviations, but it lets you get familiar with the upcoming draft class, especially if you have a last place team. You can start watching who you might target in the next draft, etc.

This is the kind of simple thing that would make the game so much more immersive and realistic and fun, without adding some very complex new component to the game. Things like bringing back betting lines or adding something like an MVP and Player of the Year race starting halfway through the year that updates each week (just like you already have team power ratings and player of the week lists, etc).

These are the kinds of things I’d like to see at this point. Not necessarily big new features to the game that will take forever to code and by adding something new you break what was already there. Instead, take what’s already there and use it to make things more immersive. Another example would be something like personalities. FOF already has ratings for leadership and loyalty and wants winner but they are just sort of random numbers. You can keep them but do it like ootp where it would say, this guy just wants to get paid. Definitely no more astrological signs.

Another example would be generated scouting reports for each player just based on his ratings the same way ootp does, say something like a running back is a breakaway threat every time he touches the ball but he’s best on the perimeter and is not a guy who can pound it up the middle, he’s a leader on the team but most of all he wants to get paid. All of this stuff has been in FOF for more than a decade, but it’s all just numbers without any description. If you take these existing elements and pull them together and slap on a facegen image and suddenly you have real people instead of a spreadsheet. The game already tracks rating increases/declines, but instead of just looking at mind-numbing lists of numbers, you can have a scouting report that says the guy is clearly on the decline but can still rush the passer or can still stop the run, or maybe for a draft prospect you could say this guy has a high ceiling but is a real boom or bust prospect (instead of just obscured ratings and a volatility score of 98).

It makes me think of the earlier role playing dungeons and dragons type games games that were out there. Everything was based on simple ratings and math, but they added faces and armor and special skills etc and even though everything was just still just ratings and dice rolls, it felt like they were real characters and not just spreadsheets. An even better example is Football Manager (soccer), which is also just numbers and math but it’s presented in a way that makes it feel like a living breathing universe. I think this is why people get so addicted to FM, not because you can make fake leagues and teams which I don’t think you can even do. The focus in FM is making you feel like you’re a manager of real players and everything that goes with it.

This is what I think was the problem with the old FOF interface that ootp can remedy. In FOF all player information had to fit on one screen and everything was a number, which is why people called it a spreadsheet game. I think it’s the reason why so many people said they hated the interface and never gave the game a chance. Sure, part of it was the outdated look, but I think much of it was the fact that it was all numbers and there was no humanity to the players. Many old school players had no problem dealing with this, but I think new players and the younger generation are turned off by it. With ootp, they have scouting reports and personality descriptions and facegen and a lot more open interface that can bring life to the players so Jim can work on things like the x and o’s and offensive and defensive philosophies and the things that are really important.

Sorry this is a long post and to be honest I haven’t read the other threads so it’s probably off topic, but just think FOF already has so much of what people want in a game, it’s just buried beneith the complexity of it all. I think instead of focusing on adding complex new features that will end up breaking existing features, it would be better to use the openness of the ootp interface to bring the players and the league to life and sort of spoon feed information to the user that is already in the game, for example, have a news item listing older players who have had big ratings drops instead of forcing the user to click through every player and compare ratings changes, or reports of breakout players (i.e. big ratings increases due to volatility). Or injuries to top players, etc. instead of just lists where the important information (big injuries to good players) is obscured by small injuries to roster filler). I’d really like to see something like the BNN reports page in ootp where all the useful information is pulled together in one place.

I’m sure the feature list has already been decided upon by the developers, but I hope these are the types of things that can be added in the first couple versions — things that are already part of the game and already work well, but basically feel lifeless because they’re buried so deep into what is essentially a spreadsheet. I think when people complain about “the interface” a big part of what they’re complaining about (maybe unconsciously) is just the level of incoherent information overload. Going back to what I started with, something simple like showing the upcoming draft class through the season with personalities and semi-random stat lines etc is where the user can start to develop a bond with what feel like real people since these are the players who will eventually populate the game universe, rather than have a bunch of fictional strangers pop out of nowhere after the season.

Anyway, thanks for the update. It all sounds good to me.

[AlexB]

Really good post, and along the lines of which i’ve been thinking and posting on FOFC for years.

Would make a huge difference - for me, these games live/die on how immersed into the game world the player becomes, and this would help hugely, along with making the stats, records, news, etc presented to you rather than hidden away in sub-menus

This is what FOF needs IMHO, info to be pushed, not needing to be found.

[Ben E Lou]

Jim started a thread on push vs. pull a while back. There hasn't been much additional "push" added to FOF since then. I can only assume that this comment he made when starting the thread is a big part of why:

Originally Posted by Solecismic

For me, the beauty of this type of game is in the imagination. I've always liked taking the time to pull information from a game, deciding what's important on my own, depending on my mood at the moment. I don't play games to sit back and be entertained, like Sportscenter. Others may feel differently.

It'll be interesting to see how Jim's philosophy and OOTP's strong "push" model end up mixing/merging in this version. (Or if, perhaps, Jim's thinking on this has changed.)

[AlexB]

Jdavidbakr’s post is also very close to my vision of how it would work:

One solution for the informational pushing would be to follow the Madden example and have a local and national newspaper with stories that are generated each week, keeping the archives around. Then you could have stories in the local paper that would be of interest to your team - records, recent game recaps, attendance information, fan disgruntledness, etc - written in the style that a news reporter would write. The national paper would cover the better teams, notable free agent signings/holdouts, high-scoring/close games, etc. The paper should be archived and readable at least for the entire current season.

I love the milestone watch and now that Ben's published the table I might add it to my database as well, but that would be a pretty cool in-game click.

Confused by something RaidersArmy wrote though

I disagree on the email system. As part of an immersive experience, I doubt a GM/Coach is going to receive an email when Peyton Manning breaks Favre's records. He's going to read about it in a newspaper.

Newspaper! 2009 was such a long time ago!

[Jim Gindin]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

It'll be interesting to see how Jim's philosophy and OOTP's strong "push" model end up mixing/merging in this version. (Or if, perhaps, Jim's thinking on this has changed.)

One point I'd like to make about this business is that we're not politicians or cartoon characters. We're just sports fans, like you are, and we decided to pursue careers outside of the traditional 9-to-5 life paradigm.


I have my philosophies about my work, but they evolve with the times. As do my tastes. There are no absolutes. Sometimes people assume that since I'm the guy who makes the decisions about what's in my products that I'm some sort of extremist. And sometimes I like to joke about these assumptions, because it's kind of fun to be thought of as a cartoon character (but definitely not a politician, especially these days).


Perhaps I take too many chances. One example being my idea that this type of game warrants a completely new type of interface (I'm ahead of the times, damn it, not behind them). But I listen. And on FOF9 I'm deferring all interface decisions to Markus and Andreas. My design documents are 100%, when there's any doubt, do it exactly like it's done in OOTP '19.


I'm also listening about game issues. You will have more control over planning issues, particularly blitzing, in FOF9. Not a huge leap forward, but I think one that satisfies complaints and makes sense. Planning is a very difficult concept in the NFL - I've studied it carefully from the coaching perspective. The problem is that the talent levels are so close that any thorough coach has the athletes to break down any particular offense. This is not the case with college football. Completely different game. Might as well be the CFL with 12-per-side, three downs and a 110-yard field for all they have in common.



But you and I, as gamers, don't want to spend 100 hours planning every week - assistants breaking down film, coming up with countless keys for your defensive players. That has to be assumed. At the NFL level, the worst thing a coach can be is predictable. For instance, the Patriots over the second half of last season ran the ball 29-20-38-35-10-19-38-38 times in games. Perhaps that's somewhat related to their opponents. But that first 38 was in a 35-17 victory over Miami, and that 10 was in a 27-20 loss to Miami two weeks later.


Sometimes, people ask why there isn't more in FOF for in-game adjustments. Certainly, NFL coaches change things up at halftime, and nowadays, with the tools they have, they can make adjustments between possessions and even have plays designed with run-pass options. Defenses counter by constantly changing assignments so that the run-pass option can't key reliably on one player. And offenses counter by changing elements of plays they feel opponents might be able to read and design keys for.



It's a chess match, and one with an infinite set of possibilities and outcomes. As soon as you script something, and it can be read, your opponent can read it and beat you with it. Any approximation of this process feels stilted. And in MP, where you don't have the opportunity to see the responses, there's no way to simulate that chess match reasonably.


With the SP in-game play-calling model, you can either run your script or you can run the game with all active plays always available. I figured I should offer both approaches.


About the push versus pull. I still prefer pull myself, and I'm hoping to get every piece of information you can extract from FOF8, and more, into FOF9. But we will have the push-box. Can't say exactly what level of events we'll incorporate, because that's something that comes later in development, but it will be there and I've already put some pieces in the engine that will be used to support it. In fairness to OOTP '19 with regard to those who prefer pull, you have a lot of control over which items actually get pushed in OOTP.

[Sharkn20]

Originally Posted by Jim Gindin

One point I'd like to make about this business is that we're not politicians or cartoon characters. We're just sports fans, like you are, and we decided to pursue careers outside of the traditional 9-to-5 life paradigm.


I have my philosophies about my work, but they evolve with the times. As do my tastes. There are no absolutes. Sometimes people assume that since I'm the guy who makes the decisions about what's in my products that I'm some sort of extremist. And sometimes I like to joke about these assumptions, because it's kind of fun to be thought of as a cartoon character (but definitely not a politician, especially these days).


Perhaps I take too many chances. One example being my idea that this type of game warrants a completely new type of interface (I'm ahead of the times, damn it, not behind them). But I listen. And on FOF9 I'm deferring all interface decisions to Markus and Andreas. My design documents are 100%, when there's any doubt, do it exactly like it's done in OOTP '19.


I'm also listening about game issues. You will have more control over planning issues, particularly blitzing, in FOF9. Not a huge leap forward, but I think one that satisfies complaints and makes sense. Planning is a very difficult concept in the NFL - I've studied it carefully from the coaching perspective. The problem is that the talent levels are so close that any thorough coach has the athletes to break down any particular offense. This is not the case with college football. Completely different game. Might as well be the CFL with 12-per-side, three downs and a 110-yard field for all they have in common.



But you and I, as gamers, don't want to spend 100 hours planning every week - assistants breaking down film, coming up with countless keys for your defensive players. That has to be assumed. At the NFL level, the worst thing a coach can be is predictable. For instance, the Patriots over the second half of last season ran the ball 29-20-38-35-10-19-38-38 times in games. Perhaps that's somewhat related to their opponents. But that first 38 was in a 35-17 victory over Miami, and that 10 was in a 27-20 loss to Miami two weeks later.


Sometimes, people ask why there isn't more in FOF for in-game adjustments. Certainly, NFL coaches change things up at halftime, and nowadays, with the tools they have, they can make adjustments between possessions and even have plays designed with run-pass options. Defenses counter by constantly changing assignments so that the run-pass option can't key reliably on one player. And offenses counter by changing elements of plays they feel opponents might be able to read and design keys for.



It's a chess match, and one with an infinite set of possibilities and outcomes. As soon as you script something, and it can be read, your opponent can read it and beat you with it. Any approximation of this process feels stilted. And in MP, where you don't have the opportunity to see the responses, there's no way to simulate that chess match reasonably.


With the SP in-game play-calling model, you can either run your script or you can run the game with all active plays always available. I figured I should offer both approaches.


About the push versus pull. I still prefer pull myself, and I'm hoping to get every piece of information you can extract from FOF8, and more, into FOF9. But we will have the push-box. Can't say exactly what level of events we'll incorporate, because that's something that comes later in development, but it will be there and I've already put some pieces in the engine that will be used to support it. In fairness to OOTP '19 with regard to those who prefer pull, you have a lot of control over which items actually get pushed in OOTP.

Can't wait!!

Please do not remove the gameplanning aspect offensively of FOF8!!!

Really glad to see we will have blitzing control in FOF9!!!

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[garion333]

I like both push and pull, but I'm not an Excel whiz and with FOF8 I feel like Excel whizzes are pulling info out that I'm not sure how to get to.

Yeah, I guess I could learn more database stuff, but it would be nice if the game offered more tools in order to look deeper into the stats. (Why the +/- from game logs isn't available somewhere in game is the biggest question mark to me.)

Anyway, coming off super negative here. Looking forward to see what new push stuff will be in the game. New stats wouldn't hurt either (ANY/A please!).

[garion333]

Originally Posted by Sharkn20

Please do not remove the gameplanning aspect offensively of FOF8!!!

Why in the world would you think that?!? Common sense says it'll be modified to give easier control for people who don't want to spend forever on gameplanning, but more or less leave the current system intact. He's porting FOF8, not FOF7.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Jim Gindin

One point I'd like to make about this business is that we're not politicians or cartoon characters. We're just sports fans, like you are, and we decided to pursue careers outside of the traditional 9-to-5 life paradigm.


I have my philosophies about my work, but they evolve with the times. As do my tastes. There are no absolutes. Sometimes people assume that since I'm the guy who makes the decisions about what's in my products that I'm some sort of extremist. And sometimes I like to joke about these assumptions, because it's kind of fun to be thought of as a cartoon character (but definitely not a politician, especially these days).


Perhaps I take too many chances. One example being my idea that this type of game warrants a completely new type of interface (I'm ahead of the times, damn it, not behind them). But I listen. And on FOF9 I'm deferring all interface decisions to Markus and Andreas. My design documents are 100%, when there's any doubt, do it exactly like it's done in OOTP '19.


I'm also listening about game issues. You will have more control over planning issues, particularly blitzing, in FOF9. Not a huge leap forward, but I think one that satisfies complaints and makes sense. Planning is a very difficult concept in the NFL - I've studied it carefully from the coaching perspective. The problem is that the talent levels are so close that any thorough coach has the athletes to break down any particular offense. This is not the case with college football. Completely different game. Might as well be the CFL with 12-per-side, three downs and a 110-yard field for all they have in common.



But you and I, as gamers, don't want to spend 100 hours planning every week - assistants breaking down film, coming up with countless keys for your defensive players. That has to be assumed. At the NFL level, the worst thing a coach can be is predictable. For instance, the Patriots over the second half of last season ran the ball 29-20-38-35-10-19-38-38 times in games. Perhaps that's somewhat related to their opponents. But that first 38 was in a 35-17 victory over Miami, and that 10 was in a 27-20 loss to Miami two weeks later.


Sometimes, people ask why there isn't more in FOF for in-game adjustments. Certainly, NFL coaches change things up at halftime, and nowadays, with the tools they have, they can make adjustments between possessions and even have plays designed with run-pass options. Defenses counter by constantly changing assignments so that the run-pass option can't key reliably on one player. And offenses counter by changing elements of plays they feel opponents might be able to read and design keys for.



It's a chess match, and one with an infinite set of possibilities and outcomes. As soon as you script something, and it can be read, your opponent can read it and beat you with it. Any approximation of this process feels stilted. And in MP, where you don't have the opportunity to see the responses, there's no way to simulate that chess match reasonably.


With the SP in-game play-calling model, you can either run your script or you can run the game with all active plays always available. I figured I should offer both approaches.


About the push versus pull. I still prefer pull myself, and I'm hoping to get every piece of information you can extract from FOF8, and more, into FOF9. But we will have the push-box. Can't say exactly what level of events we'll incorporate, because that's something that comes later in development, but it will be there and I've already put some pieces in the engine that will be used to support it. In fairness to OOTP '19 with regard to those who prefer pull, you have a lot of control over which items actually get pushed in OOTP.

This all sounds excellent. Thanks for the additional info, Jim.

[james17]

Great post! Now I’m even more excited to play the game!

[HavenHunting]

This can’t come out soon enough!

[bigd51]

I know a lot of people here have been waiting for an OOTP style football sim for a long time... but I still think I can speak on behalf of everyone when I say you guys should take as much time as you need to get the game right, even if it means we gotta wait another year. Long as it doesn't get cancelled, of course. (Please don't!)

I'd rather buy a game that someone has put a lot of thought and care into it by taking their time, instead of publishers just shoveling out half-finished games like one other AAA company does every year just to make money *cough* Madden *cough*

And thanks for the lengthy update! Even if you understandably don't want to give out too many details before you've implemented them yet, it's much appreciated and great news to hear!

EDIT: I see where people are talking about "push/pull"... what exactly does everyone mean by this?

[AlexB]

At the minute you have to ‘pull’ information from FOF, there’s almost zero infrmation about the league that is ’pushed’ to the player in the form of news stories, stat updates, records broken, etc.

Hell, if you have ‘hide results’ checked so that you can watch Solevision without knowing the score, you even have to search to find out who won the SuperBowl, the game doesn’t tell you! The info is all/mostly there, but you have to find it yourself.

For me it leaves me running a team but in an incomplete world. I would prefer the game to ‘push’ info at me, such as a weekely newsletter or website that has a weekly summary of the last round of games, notable performances, key injuries, historical records being broken, streaks, etc.

Much as in the real world NFL site you can dive into the box scores if you like, but NFL.com has news stories and headlines that bring the NFL alive to the reader.

And they tell you who won the SuperBowl

So the push/pull debate is whether detail is provided/ you have to delve into the game to find it, respectively.

[bigd51]

Originally Posted by AlexB

At the minute you have to ‘pull’ information from FOF, there’s almost zero infrmation about the league that is ’pushed’ to the player in the form of news stories, stat updates, records broken, etc.

Hell, if you have ‘hide results’ checked so that you can watch Solevision without knowing the score, you even have to search to find out who won the SuperBowl, the game doesn’t tell you! The info is all/mostly there, but you have to find it yourself.

For me it leaves me running a team but in an incomplete world. I would prefer the game to ‘push’ info at me, such as a weekely newsletter or website that has a weekly summary of the last round of games, notable performances, key injuries, historical records being broken, streaks, etc.

Much as in the real world NFL site you can dive into the box scores if you like, but NFL.com has news stories and headlines that bring the NFL alive to the reader.

And they tell you who won the SuperBowl

So the push/pull debate is whether detail is provided/ you have to delve into the game to find it, respectively.

Thanks, I've never played FOF so I don't know anything about how the game operates outside of a few screenshots I've looked at... but who wouldn't prefer "push" in this case, though? Cause I'm with you, I prefer the game to push that info to me.

That's one thing (of many) I don't like about Madden. They bury all the news, stats, schedules, and all other league activity in the back. Plus, the "news" is so basic it still doesn't do a good enough job of immersing you in your league.

With respect to the ones who prefer pull to push, I just don't see why anyone would here.