Leagues are dying

tward13 · 06-29-2016, 10:10 AM

Another has bitten the dust because the changes in the game make the online experience too difficult to run and play.

Yes, I know, many will come to the defense of OOTP, but there are many out here who have been having a less than stellar experience.

The people (not me) who put in their time and money to run leagues and try to keep things flowing smoothly are hurt time and again. For those of us who are merely players in the league, we see where the game is maybe better for solo play, but not nearly as fun for online play.

It would be nice if one of these releases a strong effort was made to work with some long time league commissioners to tighten up the online, multi-player experience.

And please pass this along to the group working on FHM so the same issues are resolved sooner than later.

I keep joining leagues because I enjoy the competition against real people and not the AI, but one by one leagues fall by the wayside.

PBCA Commish · 06-29-2016, 10:18 AM

As a rather young commish in the OOTP world, what is (are) the major problem(s) for leagues that eventually shut down?

I have been running a sim hockey league for 16 years and I have always said that the league is only as good as the amount of participation the GM's put in the league. True, the Commish does a great deal of work to run the league, but to tell you the truth, the hockey sim I use is nowhere near as evolved as OOTP (and never will be either) and I have managed to stay in the game for 16+ years.

So what makes OOTP "so bad" that leagues are shutting down?

NoOne · 06-30-2016, 09:18 PM

i can't imagine trying to get 30 people organized for each week of games or however it is moved forward.

the only problems i see are when there is an update... simple plan. don't update until you know it works online, too. make sure the peanut gallery understands that. i don't update until i know it works... i wait for complaints over a few days then update once i feel it is worthwhile or when i see "hotfix." even then i wait a day.

like deming said, it's likely system's fault - which very well could be ootp or end-user related

tward13 · 07-01-2016, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoOne

i can't imagine trying to get 30 people organized for each week of games or however it is moved forward.

the only problems i see are when there is an update... simple plan. don't update until you know it works online, too. make sure the peanut gallery understands that. i don't update until i know it works... i wait for complaints over a few days then update once i feel it is worthwhile or when i see "hotfix." even then i wait a day.

like deming said, it's likely system's fault - which very well could be ootp or end-user related

I think that's become an issue with many users now getting it through Steam. Half the league is updated automatically. You need to press ahead.

CMH · 07-01-2016, 03:44 PM

I have never been in a league that shut down because OOTP doesn't properly support online play.

The rules for successful online leagues helps.

1. Never switch to a new version of OOTP until it is confirmed fully patched.

2. Never update the file until it is confirmed without bugs by the community.

Also, maybe you need to be more picky with the leagues you choose. I'm in three leagues. Two have been going strong for over a decade. The third is at 8 years.

They aren't dying.

dodgerwv · 07-01-2016, 04:02 PM

Not sure about all online leagues declining, but it sure seems that historic online leagues are fading away. When I first started playing way back in OOTP5, there were historic leagues everywhere. Now, it's really hard to find many leagues aren't modern day or fictional.

RonCo · 07-01-2016, 04:18 PM

OOTP doesn't make it particularly easy to run or be in online leagues, and the world of multi-player environments has changed considerably to make those issues even bigger.

But IMO leagues live and die based on their culture and what the GMs bring to them just as much or more than the game itself. It's an interesting balance. Commish and GMs vs. Gameplay. Every league is a little different. My guess is that there's a natural progression, and if a league can last (say) two real years, it can last a very long time with the right back office support.

But that's a lot of work.

Very good online commissioners are worth their weight in fake gold.

MarkInCincy · 07-01-2016, 07:57 PM

Such as the gold standard OF long running leagues Time Warp and the PBRL

Sent from my Z812 using Tapatalk

tward13 · 07-02-2016, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkInCincy

Such as the gold standard OF long running leagues Time Warp and the PBRL

Sent from my Z812 using Tapatalk

Well I was in both of those. Of course they were 6.5 leagues.

MarkInCincy · 07-02-2016, 10:13 AM

Yeah the OOTP Version that is still the best to date for online leagues IMO and that with the commissioners (Matt A and Pete K) made them great

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cuervo72 · 07-05-2016, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonCo

But IMO leagues live and die based on their culture and what the GMs bring to them just as much or more than the game itself.

Yes, this. A sense of community is important to keep owners around even when their enthusiasm for the game has dipped.

jpeters1734 · 07-05-2016, 09:29 AM

The Baseball Classic has never been stronger*plug*! Online could be better but it really depends on what the commish provides to the members.

A simple sim and release commish that doesn't put much effort into the league will bleed members. RonCo is spot on about the culture being bigger than the game. I spend far more time talking with my league members about baseball, league history, and randomness then I do in TBC related activities. It's probably something like 4-1.

I believe you also have to provide something unique, which is why I love all the fictional options. You can create a world that people want to be a part of and that they also feel they have a hand in.

Online leagues are not dying. You just have to find the right commish.

MarkInCincy · 07-05-2016, 11:18 AM

And the right GM's

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jpeters1734 · 07-05-2016, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkInCincy

And the right GM's

Sent from my Z812 using Tapatalk

yes of course, a commish is nothing without great GM's

canadiancreed · 07-05-2016, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMH

Also, maybe you need to be more picky with the leagues you choose. I'm in three leagues. Two have been going strong for over a decade. The third is at 8 years.

SO three out of how many? I don't really have a dog in this fight, but to conclude that online leagues are or aren't dying off from small, biased sample sizes isn't the way to prove it. Or course the way to prove it is to see the amount of leagues that have folded during this version compared to previous versions and then analyse the percentages. Which sounds like a lot of work. But until then, either conclusion is invalid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkInCincy

Such as the gold standard OF long running leagues Time Warp and the PBRL

This man speaks the truth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkInCincy

And the right GM's

It helps if they have borderline OCD and are a tad psychotic. A talent for verbosity and a greatly oversized sense of competition helps too.

jpeters1734 · 07-05-2016, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

SO three out of how many? I don't really have a dog in this fight, but to conclude that online leagues are or aren't dying off from small, biased sample sizes isn't the way to prove it. Or course the way to prove it is to see the amount of leagues that have folded during this version compared to previous versions and then analyse the percentages. Which sounds like a lot of work. But until then, either conclusion is invalid.

The same can be said for the claim that online leagues are dying.

canadiancreed · 07-05-2016, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpeters1734

The same can be said for the claim that online leagues are dying.

Agreed. I believe that's what I was attempting to imply that both are invalid without a proper analysis.

FlexD · 07-05-2016, 06:10 PM

Part of the issue IMO is coming out with a new version and new roster sets every year. A lot of leagues(not all) go with the new version with new roster sets and start the process all over again, meaning new leagues(not all) with new roster sets get started with every release, thus you are finding that long standing leagues are difficult to find, though there are some. You get a few sim seasons in before the new release comes out, then the process starts again until the next version. It's very clear that Markus has a bigger following in the solo player market, thus his strategic move to enhance the solo play aspect of OOTP, a smart move on his part.

kq76 · 07-05-2016, 08:21 PM

Leagues fold for different reasons and I think it'd be difficult to pin down the true reasons why they fold. The best we can do, I think, is to just speculate on the why. My guess is most fold because people lose interest or people just find it's too much work.

How might we keep interest up? Well, we can try adding more features. And how do we prevent it from being too much work? Well, we try to make things easier to do, especially things the commissioner has to do.

Those aren't detailed paths of course, but I think they're at least directions to point in.

The culture of a league or the relationships amongst members in a league is an interesting and, I think, valid answer, but I don't think we or OOTP can really control that so we might as well focus on what we can control.

RonCo · 07-06-2016, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kq76

The culture of a league or the relationships amongst members in a league is an interesting and, I think, valid answer, but I don't think we or OOTP can really control that so we might as well focus on what we can control.

Yes. OOTP can control how easy or difficult it is to do various things to actually run the team, and it can control how easy it is to learn things about the league. Many of these are in the interface, the html, the ability to search for and find complex stats relationships, and the big one--the ability to actually do file work directly on the host server.

06-29-2016, 10:10 AM	#1
tward13 All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,957	Leagues are dying Another has bitten the dust because the changes in the game make the online experience too difficult to run and play. Yes, I know, many will come to the defense of OOTP, but there are many out here who have been having a less than stellar experience. The people (not me) who put in their time and money to run leagues and try to keep things flowing smoothly are hurt time and again. For those of us who are merely players in the league, we see where the game is maybe better for solo play, but not nearly as fun for online play. It would be nice if one of these releases a strong effort was made to work with some long time league commissioners to tighten up the online, multi-player experience. And please pass this along to the group working on FHM so the same issues are resolved sooner than later. I keep joining leagues because I enjoy the competition against real people and not the AI, but one by one leagues fall by the wayside.

06-30-2016, 09:18 PM	#3
NoOne Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,167	i can't imagine trying to get 30 people organized for each week of games or however it is moved forward. the only problems i see are when there is an update... simple plan. don't update until you know it works online, too. make sure the peanut gallery understands that. i don't update until i know it works... i wait for complaints over a few days then update once i feel it is worthwhile or when i see "hotfix." even then i wait a day. like deming said, it's likely system's fault - which very well could be ootp or end-user related Last edited by NoOne; 06-30-2016 at 09:19 PM.

07-01-2016, 03:44 PM	#5
CMH Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,057	I have never been in a league that shut down because OOTP doesn't properly support online play. The rules for successful online leagues helps. 1. Never switch to a new version of OOTP until it is confirmed fully patched. 2. Never update the file until it is confirmed without bugs by the community. Also, maybe you need to be more picky with the leagues you choose. I'm in three leagues. Two have been going strong for over a decade. The third is at 8 years. They aren't dying. Last edited by CMH; 07-01-2016 at 03:45 PM.

07-01-2016, 07:57 PM	#8
MarkInCincy All Star Reserve Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Cincinnait, OH (WestSider) Posts: 657	Such as the gold standard OF long running leagues Time Warp and the PBRL Sent from my Z812 using Tapatalk __________________ "A baseball fan has the digestive apparatus of a billy goat. He can, and does, devour any set of statistics with insatiable appetite and then nuzzles hungrily for more." - Sportswriter Arthur Daley "Who says there's an unemployment problem in this country? Just take the five percent unemployed and give them a baseball stat to follow." - Outfielder Andy Van Slyke

07-02-2016, 10:13 AM	#10
MarkInCincy All Star Reserve Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Cincinnait, OH (WestSider) Posts: 657	Yeah the OOTP Version that is still the best to date for online leagues IMO and that with the commissioners (Matt A and Pete K) made them great Sent from my Z812 using Tapatalk __________________ "A baseball fan has the digestive apparatus of a billy goat. He can, and does, devour any set of statistics with insatiable appetite and then nuzzles hungrily for more." - Sportswriter Arthur Daley "Who says there's an unemployment problem in this country? Just take the five percent unemployed and give them a baseball stat to follow." - Outfielder Andy Van Slyke

06-29-2016, 10:18 AM	#2
PBCA Commish Minors (Single A) Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 98	As a rather young commish in the OOTP world, what is (are) the major problem(s) for leagues that eventually shut down? I have been running a sim hockey league for 16 years and I have always said that the league is only as good as the amount of participation the GM's put in the league. True, the Commish does a great deal of work to run the league, but to tell you the truth, the hockey sim I use is nowhere near as evolved as OOTP (and never will be either) and I have managed to stay in the game for 16+ years. So what makes OOTP "so bad" that leagues are shutting down?

07-01-2016, 04:02 PM	#6
dodgerwv Bat Boy Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 2	Not sure about all online leagues declining, but it sure seems that historic online leagues are fading away. When I first started playing way back in OOTP5, there were historic leagues everywhere. Now, it's really hard to find many leagues aren't modern day or fictional.

07-01-2016, 04:18 PM	#7
RonCo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 9,501	OOTP doesn't make it particularly easy to run or be in online leagues, and the world of multi-player environments has changed considerably to make those issues even bigger. But IMO leagues live and die based on their culture and what the GMs bring to them just as much or more than the game itself. It's an interesting balance. Commish and GMs vs. Gameplay. Every league is a little different. My guess is that there's a natural progression, and if a league can last (say) two real years, it can last a very long time with the right back office support. But that's a lot of work. Very good online commissioners are worth their weight in fake gold.

07-05-2016, 09:29 AM	#12
jpeters1734 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Juust a bit outside... Posts: 5,619	The Baseball Classic has never been strongerplug! Online could be better but it really depends on what the commish provides to the members. A simple sim and release commish that doesn't put much effort into the league will bleed members. RonCo is spot on about the culture being bigger than the game. I spend far more time talking with my league members about baseball, league history, and randomness then I do in TBC related activities. It's probably something like 4-1. I believe you also have to provide something unique, which is why I love all the fictional options. You can create a world that people want to be a part of and that they also feel they have a hand in. Online leagues are not dying. You just have to find the right commish. __________________ "Cannonball Coming!" Go Bucs!! Founder and League Caretaker of the Professional Baseball Circuit, www.probaseballcircuit.com An Un-Official Guide to Minor League Management in OOTP 21 Ratings Scale Conversion Cross-Reference Cheat Sheet Last edited by jpeters1734; 07-05-2016 at 09:31 AM.

07-05-2016, 11:18 AM	#13
MarkInCincy All Star Reserve Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Cincinnait, OH (WestSider) Posts: 657	And the right GM's Sent from my Z812 using Tapatalk __________________ "A baseball fan has the digestive apparatus of a billy goat. He can, and does, devour any set of statistics with insatiable appetite and then nuzzles hungrily for more." - Sportswriter Arthur Daley "Who says there's an unemployment problem in this country? Just take the five percent unemployed and give them a baseball stat to follow." - Outfielder Andy Van Slyke

07-05-2016, 06:10 PM	#18
FlexD Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 127	Part of the issue IMO is coming out with a new version and new roster sets every year. A lot of leagues(not all) go with the new version with new roster sets and start the process all over again, meaning new leagues(not all) with new roster sets get started with every release, thus you are finding that long standing leagues are difficult to find, though there are some. You get a few sim seasons in before the new release comes out, then the process starts again until the next version. It's very clear that Markus has a bigger following in the solo player market, thus his strategic move to enhance the solo play aspect of OOTP, a smart move on his part.

07-05-2016, 08:21 PM	#19
kq76 Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 10,701	Leagues fold for different reasons and I think it'd be difficult to pin down the true reasons why they fold. The best we can do, I think, is to just speculate on the why. My guess is most fold because people lose interest or people just find it's too much work. How might we keep interest up? Well, we can try adding more features. And how do we prevent it from being too much work? Well, we try to make things easier to do, especially things the commissioner has to do. Those aren't detailed paths of course, but I think they're at least directions to point in. The culture of a league or the relationships amongst members in a league is an interesting and, I think, valid answer, but I don't think we or OOTP can really control that so we might as well focus on what we can control. __________________ My OOTP Wishlist Your Recommended Team Nicknames, By City (A Crowdsourced Project)