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Old 02-18-2013, 07:44 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Sabermetric Baseball View Post
I'm sure The Wolf's cousin had his front door locked when the psycho robbers crashed through the living room with their truck. Didn't do a lot of good in that instance. Still doesn't mean it was not worthwhile to lock the door.
Invalid comparison. Burglars actually exist. Cheating OOTP online commissioners? That's an X file at best.

Find an online commissioner you can trust and spare us your fears, please.

And if you can't find one you can trust, then the problem is not with the commissioners.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 02-18-2013, 07:46 PM   #42
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because there is really no reason why it should be included in the game. If there isn't a really important reason to include it, then we don't want to see developers spent time on this features either.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 02-18-2013, 08:06 PM   #43
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Yes, because burglars are real. I'm unhappy with people with imaginary cheating online commissioners trying to waste programming time on their fears.
Unfortunately, chainsaw-wielding burglars, cheating online commissioners, and people who crash trucks into houses are all sad realities.
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Old 02-18-2013, 08:10 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
Invalid comparison. Burglars actually exist. Cheating OOTP online commissioners? That's an X file at best.

Find an online commissioner you can trust and spare us your fears, please.

And if you can't find one you can trust, then the problem is not with the commissioners.
People want more security and do not trust based on personal experience and common sense.

Looking over the numerous threads on this forum over the years about this very subject would indicate that the problem is real and that the concern is valid whether cheating is widespread or not.

For someone to suggest that burglars exist but that someone wouldn't cheat on an online game when it would be easy to do so makes absolutely no sense to me; that is delusional, nonsensical thinking.
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Old 02-18-2013, 08:13 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Sabermetric Baseball View Post
That's the problem with the current set up - there's no way for a Commish to be caught. Random stuff happens in this game. An unbelievable set of circumstances is possible. An unbelievable set of circumstances happening over and over is possible. There's enough to raise suspicion, but there's no tangible way to ever know enough to reasonably act on.



Yes, there could be other ways to cheat, but this takes out the easiest and quickest way. I'm sure The Wolf's cousin had his front door locked when the psycho robbers crashed through the living room with their truck. Didn't do a lot of good in that instance. Still doesn't mean it was not worthwhile to lock the door.
Please - some examples of "random stuff". Anytime a players talent changes in OOTP it is recorded by the game and viewable by all. So if a Commish is bumping talents, it becomes evident very quickly.
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Old 02-18-2013, 08:17 PM   #46
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Agreed. As I understand the OP, however, he is specifically concerned about people (the Commish) having access to the players and using the editor to improve or diminish players under the guise of the "randomness" of the OOTP player dev system.

Why not provide a report that shows a record of the changes made to player ratings that denotes those made by the software and those made by the user?
Already in the game. Has been for a long time.

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Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla View Post
I get that people don't want this added information presented to them if they are doing player customizations on a grand scale and cluttering up their view (or that they don't want a visual reminder that every time they open up their favorite pitcher that they used the editor to reconstruct his arm so well that Dr Jobe is in awe of the recovery).

Sure the commissioner could export the file and alter the file and import the file back. However, you have forced him to do this because you have added a level of effort and complexity to the scheme. This makes it more time consuming for the nefarious perpetrator of OOTP league slanting than by not having a record of how the player changes were generated.
Already covered - anybody that wants to cheat is going to, regardless of how many safeguards you put in. This isn't going to stop a Commish for a second. He's already made his mind up to cheat, he's going to cheat, even if it means extra steps.
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Old 02-18-2013, 08:19 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Up here in Canada View Post
People want more security and do not trust based on personal experience and common sense.

Looking over the numerous threads on this forum over the years about this very subject would indicate that the problem is real and that the concern is valid whether cheating is widespread or not.

For someone to suggest that burglars exist but that someone wouldn't cheat on an online game when it would be easy to do so makes absolutely no sense to me; that is delusional, nonsensical thinking.
Links to said threads please.
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Old 02-18-2013, 08:43 PM   #48
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Unfortunately, chainsaw-wielding burglars, cheating online commissioners, and people who crash trucks into houses are all sad realities.
Got any proof you were cheated by an online commissioner? And a name?

No, of course you don't.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 02-18-2013, 08:45 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla View Post
Why not provide a report that shows a record of the changes made to player ratings that denotes those made by the software and those made by the user?
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Originally Posted by Bluenoser View Post
Already in the game. Has been for a long time.
The comment was for a report that not only shows changes made to player ratings but also to differentiate between those made by software and those made by the user. To the best of my knowledge that report does not exist.


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Originally Posted by Bluenoser View Post
Already covered - anybody that wants to cheat is going to, regardless of how many safeguards you put in. This isn't going to stop a Commish for a second. He's already made his mind up to cheat, he's going to cheat, even if it means extra steps.
Based on that theory I don't need passwords on my account, keys to my house, or any other safeguard because if someone is going to rip me off they are going to find a way? As long as there are people there will be people who cheat or are tempted to cheat. If, with reasonable effort, they can be discouraged from cheating the effort is worth it. If it takes too much effort to implement a safeguard such as this then I can see not doing it. The only ones who know how much effort it would take are Marcus and his staff. The idea has been presented for them to consider and ultimately decide whether to implement it or not.

I get it, you don't like the idea but that does not make it a bad idea.

Last edited by byzeil; 02-18-2013 at 08:46 PM.
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Old 02-18-2013, 08:46 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Up here in Canada View Post
People want more security and do not trust based on personal experience and common sense.
Or on nothing but paranoia.

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Originally Posted by Up here in Canada View Post
Looking over the numerous threads on this forum over the years about this very subject would indicate that the problem is real and that the concern is valid whether cheating is widespread or not.
Links please. I've been here since 6.5 and have never once heard of an online commissioner cheating with secret edits.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 02-18-2013, 08:50 PM   #51
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I get it, you don't like the idea but that does not make it a bad idea.
No, you don't get it. We think the alleged threat is trivial at best and most likely imaginary.

How hard can it be to find a commissioner you can trust?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 02-18-2013, 08:57 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
No, you don't get it. We think the alleged threat is trivial at best and most likely imaginary.

How hard can it be to find a commissioner you can trust?
I understand that you think it is trivial at best and most likely imaginary but you don't define reality.

It is trivial to identify a stupid cheating commissioner but it can be quite difficult to identify a intelligent one.
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:06 PM   #53
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The comment was for a report that not only shows changes made to player ratings but also to differentiate between those made by software and those made by the user. To the best of my knowledge that report does not exist.
Yes, it does. Anytime there is a talent change in game (made by the software) it is recorded in development reports and player history. Talent changes made randomly by user aren't. It will show his development/talent change history as it occurred by the game internally.





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I get it, you don't like the idea but that does not make it a bad idea.
Not sure where you get that. I just think it's unnecessary. I never said I don't like it. I did say I respect the Ops feelings about it.
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:08 PM   #54
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I understand that you think it is trivial at best and most likely imaginary but you don't define reality.
But facts do. Got a list of OOTP online commissioners accused of doing that? Got links?

This is trivial at best and likely imaginary.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 02-18-2013, 09:13 PM   #55
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Yes, it does. Anytime there is a talent change in game (made by the software) it is recorded in development reports and player history. Talent changes made randomly by user aren't. It will show his development/talent change history as it occurred by the game internally.
If scouting is on it shows changes in what your scout thinks of a player but that is no guarantee that the underlying ratings have changed or not.
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:19 PM   #56
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But facts do. Got a list of OOTP online commissioners accused of doing that? Got links?

This is trivial at best and likely imaginary.
It may or may not be trivial but it is not imaginary. I was in a league where the commish was caught cheating and the league folded. So from first hand experience I know it has happened.
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:26 PM   #57
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It may or may not be trivial but it is not imaginary. I was in a league where the commish was caught cheating and the league folded. So from first hand experience I know it has happened.
But did he do it with secret edits? THAT is the question.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 02-18-2013, 09:33 PM   #58
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But did he do it with secret edits? THAT is the question.
Yes, he was modifying players and he got caught because he was modifying too many players and made it obvious. What makes him a truly stupid cheating commish is that he fessed up when confronted and tried to beg forgiveness. Obviously he couldn't be trusted.

I wish there weren't people who would cheat in a game but I'm sorry to say there are.
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:41 PM   #59
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Why not provide a report that shows a record of the changes made to player ratings that denotes those made by the software and those made by the user?

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Originally Posted by Bluenoser View Post
Already in the game. Has been for a long time.
It is??

ADD: OK, I responded to your post before finishing through all the following posts. I didn't mean to pile on by taking the same line of thought byzeil did, either. We were just on the same wavelength. Apologies for responding before reading through the thread.

I never delved into the exact mechanisms of how the changes are documented. I believe that what you say regarding the software changes being documented but the user ones not (I have noticed that when I remove a player the computer inducts into the HOF, the record in his history remains, but when I put that same player in, later, the history record does not document that).

Last edited by VanillaGorilla; 02-18-2013 at 09:53 PM. Reason: ADD
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:46 PM   #60
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anybody that wants to cheat is going to, regardless of how many safeguards you put in. This isn't going to stop a Commish for a second. He's already made his mind up to cheat, he's going to cheat, even if it means extra steps.
Silly...anyone that wants to steal will steal. So why do they lock-up cigarettes at the supermarket? Why put money in a safe? All someone has to do is come in with an axe or dynamite and they will steal, so why bother?

There IS a record of changes to player ratings, as you noted. What you failed to note is that the method of change is not documented. What the heck is so wrong with color coding a change that is done by a user edit, for goodness sake??

ADD: Posted before reading through. Apologies, again.

Last edited by VanillaGorilla; 02-18-2013 at 09:55 PM. Reason: ADD
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