HS/College pitchers need to be fixed in 14!

[The Wolf]

Remember that there are way too many starters generated in HS and college feeders who only have two pitches when they enter the majors. This needs to fixed in 14.

[The Wolf]

Yes, it's already been suggested in Suggestions. But its inclusion is vital to stats only, so I thought I would jump up and down here.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Actually, that is intentional... many HS / college pitchers are able to succeed there as starters with only two pitches. These will end up as relievers eventually when becoming pro.

Or where exactly is the problem?

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Actually, that is intentional... many HS / college pitchers are able to succeed there as starters with only two pitches. These will end up as relievers eventually when becoming pro.

Or where exactly is the problem?

Haven't people been saying that there's still an issue with there being too many star relievers when using feeder leagues?

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

Haven't people been saying that there's still an issue with there being too many star relievers when using feeder leagues?

Well people say all sorts of stuff all the time, but often cannot prove it with hard data.

[Cryomaniac]

And speaking of feeder leagues, would it be possible to have service limits instead of age limits? I know you said it was too difficult AI wise to do it for minor leagues (and I can understand how it would be), but feeder leagues are not the same.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Actually, that is intentional... many HS / college pitchers are able to succeed there as starters with only two pitches. These will end up as relievers eventually when becoming pro.

Or where exactly is the problem?

I and others who use only feeders as a source of new players end up with not enough decent starters and far too many star relievers in our leagues. It's been a frequent topic of discussion.

[Dark Horse]

i'm hoping that this...

"Better Player Development Tracking
OOTP now properly tracks the development of your players and offers several ways to analyze the data. You receive monthly player development updates from your head scout (or the OSA, if scouts are disabled), who highlights the most important changes, such as when a pitcher in the lower minor leagues learns a new pitch and improves his prospect status."

means that the two pitch pitchers won't be as big a problem in v14. :fingerscrossed:

[The Wolf]

That might work. Right now we just don't get enough decent starters.

[Pdubya64]

Markus, I thought Curt had commented long ago (1-2 years) about MLB caliber pitchers nearly always having 3 pitches. Granted, he mentioned that the third pitch may not be all that developed/effective, but at least they have one.

Not sure how that translates to talking about minor league and prospects though. Maybe ask the man himself?

In closing I would have to agree with Wolf that, while I can't be definitive on how this is "off", it does feel off none-the-less.

[Sabermetric Baseball]

This might already be built into the game engine, but if not I'd like to see usage directly influence the likelihood of developing a third pitch.

If a prospect spends an entire season in a minor league rotation, they're more likely to have their coaches pressuring them to develop and throw a third pitch (and perhaps less likely to see bumps in velocity).

[torpidbeaver]

Would something like this be difficult to pull off for a Stats Only style of play?

Originally Posted by torpidbeaver

Any way you could implement a "Stats-only" toggle when setting up a new league? Something to take away some of the confusion of how to set it all up, and eliminate the time and frustration that come with that process.

I know there are a few guides here on the forum for how to set it all up manually, but being able to simply hit a button and have all of the necessary prerequisites -- feeder leagues (with however many years of stats/simmed years), scouting settings, etc -- would open up a door for people like me who want to try a Stats-only game but are either too confused about how to set the whole thing up or too intimidated in getting the process going.

[ike121212]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Actually, that is intentional... many HS / college pitchers are able to succeed there as starters with only two pitches. These will end up as relievers eventually when becoming pro.

Or where exactly is the problem?

I won't argue on the 'Actual' side (in this post anyways!). I don't think many people agree with the current state on the 'Potential' side or the Scouting. To put it another way, how many highly rated prospects are drafted, where no scout thinks they have any potential of developing a third pitch?

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by ike121212

I won't argue on the 'Actual' side (in this post anyways!). I don't think many people agree with the current state on the 'Potential' side or the Scouting. To put it another way, how many highly rated prospects are drafted, where no scout thinks they have any potential of developing a third pitch?

As starters? Probably zero. Which is why we need 4-pitch starter prospects.

[Cryomaniac]

The thing about how many pitches people throw has come up before. IIRC from that the basic idea is that most people should be able to throw three or more, but most people should only have two good ones. So you might have a guy with a fastball, a changeup and a slider, but the ratings (out of 10) will be 10, 8 and 1, with say 6 or 7 stamina. Clearly if that guy develops the '1' pitch into a 6 or 7 then he'll be a starter, if not he'll be a reliever.

The problem is doing that in such a way that results in realistic career paths.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

The thing about how many pitches people throw has come up before. IIRC from that the basic idea is that most people should be able to throw three or more, but most people should only have two good ones. So you might have a guy with a fastball, a changeup and a slider, but the ratings (out of 10) will be 10, 8 and 1, with say 6 or 7 stamina. Clearly if that guy develops the '1' pitch into a 6 or 7 then he'll be a starter, if not he'll be a reliever.

The problem is doing that in such a way that results in realistic career paths.

Bingo.

I may not like the current system and I may like to see guys developing third pitches or, as Cryomaniac suggests let them have three with a low rated one that may develop. The thing though is, at least in my leagues, the current system does fill my MLB with enough starting pitching. The last thing I'd want to see is a system where too many guys develop a third pitch giving my league too many good starting pitchers.

Whatever Markus does, be it stay with the system we now have or go to something like Cryomaniac suggests here with two good and one poor pitch, the game has to somehow limit the number of guys that will "grow" into a viable MLB SP.

The proposed system where we see more guys come in with 3 pitches may be more immersive as we will "draft and hope" based on that lowest rated pitch but in the end we should still end up in the same place we are now, IE with the "right" amount of starters.

For the fun\immersion factor I'd say let me see three pitches and I'll draft accordingly. As far as a balanced game though I'm not sure it makes much difference since the goal will always be to have the "right" amount of starters.

Also, and only Markus would know for sure, how much code would have to change to make the AI keep up with more 3 pitch guys coming in? Right now the AI "knows" a 3 pitch guy is a better bet to start. Will the AI "understand" that the new 3 pitch guys (with the 10, 8 and 1 rated pitches) are really no better than the old 10-8 pitcher?

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Also, and only Markus would know for sure, how much code would have to change to make the AI keep up with more 3 pitch guys coming in? Right now the AI "knows" a 3 pitch guy is a better bet to start. Will the AI "understand" that the new 3 pitch guys (with the 10, 8 and 1 rated pitches) are really no better than the old 10-8 pitcher?

I'm guessing that AI is a lot of the issue actually. AI is, of course, notoriously difficult to code at the best of times, so it's probably the major concern in changing the mechanics of something like pitcher creation. It would need a LOT of tweaking and testing to make sure it worked properly.

[forgivy]

I don't have a problem with many HS players having 2 pitches, I think it should be much more common for college pitchers to have 3-4 pitches though. Also I think it should be a much more common for pitchers to learn new pitches in the minors as this happens a a lot in real life... You say that a lot of relievers only have two pitches and yes that is true to an extent but most major league pitchers have a 3rd pitch even if it isn't very developed. Fastball is a given, that almost shouldn't count as a pitch XD

[flair1239]

One only needs to look at last years Minnesota Twins line up to note that in real life there are not enough starting pitchers to go around.

It is like Quarterbacks in the NFL. They are a rare commodity.

It would be cool to have an undeveloped third pitch, but I would be against any system which would potentially lead to a surplus of quality starters.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by flair1239

It would be cool to have an undeveloped third pitch, but I would be against any system which would potentially lead to a surplus of quality starters.

That's not what is being asked for. What is being asked for is enough AVERAGE starters in leagues where only feeder leagues are being used to feed the draft. Right now instead of significant amounts of starters, feeder leagues generate lots of highly-rated two-pitch players who go on to become star relievers, and insufficient amounts of what will become even average starters. Over time you wind up with a league full of crappy starters and ace relievers, which is screwed up and wrong. Simulate ten years of a MAL league which draws from stock HS/College feeder leagues only for its draft and see for yourself. Watch the draft classes for three- and four-pitch starter prospects. Compare the number to real life.

But Markus doesn't believe this is a real problem, so he won't fix the two-pitch starter problem, so we won't be able to use feeder leagues in 14.

Again.

@#$%^!!!!!