VOTE: Time Warp HOF Ballot 1945

Matt from TN · 08-24-2004, 12:08 PM

1936 Initial Ballot Results, 1937 Results, 1938 Results, 1939 Results, 1940 Results,
1941 Results, 1942 Results, 1943 Results, 1944 Results

No players were elected to the RL HOF in 1945 by the BBWAA, but the following players were elected by the VC - Roger Bresnahan, Dan Brouthers, Fred Clarke, Jimmy Collins, Ed Delahanty, Hugh Duffy, Hughie Jennings, King Kelly, Jim O'Rourke.

All players who received at least 5% of votes on the last ballot were retained for this ballot. I also added players who became eligible for the ballot in 1945 (retired after 1939 season).

All players not receiving 5% of votes on this ballot will be removed.

The TWB VC officially begins in 1946, so all players who have been retired for 20 years fall off this ballot if not elected.

Vote for as many or as few as you want. Max votes are 10.

HOF Standard: 50 is considered an average HOF'er. 100 is max.

Batters

Current Career Leaders (Click to View Entire List):
AVG: .364
Hits: 4000
HR: 502
RBI: 1847
2B: 665
BB: 1694
R: 2004
SB: 921

Patrick Seifried, 1B, Last Season: 1924, HOF Standard: 51
2720 H, 313 2B, 59 HR, 1195 RBI, 1348 R, 851 K, 1137 BB, 235 SB, .327 AVG, .867 OPS
BOY Award: 3
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 5
Pennants: 2
WS Victories: NONE
Batting Titles: 1
Led League in: OBP 3, SLG 1, OPS 2, RBI 2, Runs 2, BB 3
Career Top 10: NONE

Paris "Frenchie" Fournier, 3B, Last Season: 1924, HOF Standard: 49
2730 H, 465 2B, 24 HR, 980 RBI, 1511 R, 354 K, 541 BB, 802 SB, .296 AVG, .772 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
Pennants: 4
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: Hits 2, 2B 1, 3B 2, Runs 4, SB 7
Career Top 10: 3B, Runs, SB

"Dark Horse" Allen, CF, Last Season: 1913, HOF Standard: 42
1795 H, 213 2B, 67 HR, 709 RBI, 907 R, 528 K, 871 BB, 13 SB, .325 AVG, .883 OPS
BOY Award: 3
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
Pennants: 3
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: 2
Led League in: OBP 2, SLG 4, OPS 4, Hits 2, 3B 1, HR 1, Runs 3, BB 5
Career Top 10: NONE

"Ray of Light" Brown, CF, Last Season: 1926, HOF Standard: 49
2526 H, 339 2B, 130 HR, 1155 RBI, 1314 R, 969 K, 828 BB, 167 SB, .300 AVG, .836 OPS
BOY Award: 2
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 11
Pennants: 4
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: SLG 2, Hits 2, 3B 1, HR 2, Runs 1
Career Top 10: 3B

Jerry "Slap" Hertzog, 2B, Last Season: 1937, HOF Standard: 61
2510 H, 395 2B, 122 HR, 1187 RBI, 1491 R, 899 K, 1509 BB, 41 SB, .314 AVG, .872 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: 1
Gold Gloves: 3
Pennants: 4
WS Victories: NONE
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: OBP 1, BB 7
Career Top 10: BB

Cyrus Holloway, CF, Last Season: 1937, HOF Standard: 57
2447 H, 540 2B, 114 HR, 1108 RBI, 1299 R, 537 K, 1215 BB, 109 SB, .315 AVG, .863 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 2
Pennants: 1
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: NONE
Career Top 10: NONE

Willard Schwarz, C, Last Season: 1937, HOF Standard: 41
2050 H, 359 2B, 340 HR, 1399 RBI, 1106 R, 614 K, 595 BB, 14 SB, .260 AVG, .760 OPS
BOY Award: 1
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 8
Pennants: 6
WS Victories: 5
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: SLG 1, HR 3, RBI 1, R 1
Career Top 10: HR

Glendon "Bull" Zegri, LF, Last Season: 1938, HOF Standard: 58
2934 H, 657 2B, 212 HR, 1713 RBI, 1503 R, 454 K, 1560 BB, 25 SB, .304 AVG, .844 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 2
Pennants: 4
WS Victories: NONE
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: NONE
Career Top 10: RBI, 2B, BB

Rod "Cowboy" Glass, 3B, Last Season: 1938, HOF Standard: 49
2772 H, 479 2B, 101 HR, 1172 RBI, 1293 R, 596 K, 609 BB, 39 SB, .309 AVG, .789 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 1
Pennants: 6
WS Victories: 5
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: NONE
Career Top 10: NONE

Ralph "Thunder" Tumbridge, 1B, Last Season: 1938, HOF Standard: 28
2086 H, 371 2B, 243 HR, 1409 RBI, 1095 R, 443 K, 762 BB, 24 SB, .274 AVG, .778 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 9
Pennants: 6
WS Victories: 4
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: RBI 1
Career Top 10: NONE

Kevin Stines, 2B, Last Season: 1938, HOF Standard: 41
2213 H, 467 2B, 55 HR, 983 RBI, 1191 R, 622 K, 815 BB, 336 SB, .285 AVG, .782 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 10
Pennants: 2
WS Victories: NONE
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: 3B 2
Career Top 10: NONE

Nick Graves, RF, Last Season: 1938, HOF Standard: 52
2356 H, 527 2B, 207 HR, 1408 RBI, 1208 R, 775 K, 784 BB, 110 SB, .312 AVG, .877 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: 1
Gold Gloves: 2
Pennants: 1
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: 2B 1
Career Top 10: NONE

NEW

Howard "Cookie" Parrish, 1B, Last Season: 1939, HOF Standard: 36
2082 H, 481 2B, 228 HR, 1171 RBI, 1010 R, 423 K, 576 BB, 6 SB, .312 AVG, .860 OPS
BOY Award: 2
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
Pennants: 2
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: SLG 1, OPS 1, 2B 1, RBI 1
Career Top 10: NONE

Donald "Duckie" Andrew, 2B, Last Season: 1939, HOF Standard: 47
2203 H, 374 2B, 84 HR, 960 RBI, 1472 R, 641 K, 1185 BB, 701 SB, .276 AVG, .789 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
Pennants: NONE
WS Victories: NONE
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: 3B 2, SB 5
Career Top 10: SB

Dale "The Wizard" Reneau, SS, Last Season: 1939, HOF Standard: 63
2784 H, 340 2B, 91 HR, 1057 RBI, 1467 R, 693 K, 919 BB, 557 SB, .317 AVG, .829 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 3
Pennants: 6
WS Victories: 5
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: 3B 2, Runs 1, SB 2
Career Top 10: NONE

Ben "Rabbi" Baum, CF, Last Season: 1938, HOF Standard: 78
3297 H, 439 2B, 238 HR, 1645 RBI, 1719 R, 698 K, 1015 BB, 192 SB, .337 AVG, .907 OPS
BOY Award: 3
ROY Award: 1918
Gold Gloves: 1
Pennants: 4
WS Victories: NONE
Batting Titles: 2
Led League in: OBP 1, SLG 2, OPS 2, Hits 3, HR 2, RBI 1, Runs 1
Career Top 10: RBI, Runs

Matt from TN · 08-24-2004, 12:08 PM

Pitchers

Current Career Leaders (Click to View Entire List):
ERA: 2.10
W: 390
K: 3116
CG: 601
SHO: 95

Will Haggan, Last Season: 1922, HOF Standard: 58
337-299, 53.0%, 3.28 ERA, 5837.1 IP, 1597 BB, 2612 K, 601 CG, 45 SHO, 1.15 WHIP
POY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 2
WS Victories: 2
No-Hitters: 2
Led League in: Wins 1, Losses 1, IP 2
Career Top 10: Wins, K's (#1), CG (#1)

Mark Krosser, Last Season: 1916, HOF Standard: 57
266-181, 59.5%, 2.50 ERA, 4134.2 IP, 653 BB, 2131 K, 419 CG, 39 SHO, 1.10 WHIP
POY Award: 2
ROY Award: 1
Pennants: 2
WS Victories: 1
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: ERA 3, WHIP 1, Wins 2, IP 1, K's 2, CG 2, SHO 1
Career Top 10: ERA, K's

Dave "The Shepard" McBean, Last Season: 1916, HOF Standard: 56
254-151, 62.7%, 2.52 ERA, 3747 IP, 611 BB, 1529 K, 386 CG, 55 SHO, 1.06 WHIP
POY Award: 1
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 1
WS Victories: 1
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: Wins 3, IP 1, K's 1, CG 3, SHO 1
Career Top 10: ERA, SHO

"Nasty Ned" Fargo, Last Season: 1933, HOF Standard: 46
322-261, 55.2%, 3.99 ERA, 5502 IP, 1073 BB, 1482 K, 415 CG, 31 SHO, 1.24 WHIP
POY Award: 1
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 1
WS Victories: 1
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: Wins 1, Losses 1, IP 5, CG 2
Career Top 10: Wins

"Evil" Gary Archer, Last Season: 1914, HOF Standard: 45
237-188, 55.8%, 2.86 ERA, 3922.1 IP, 984 BB, 1631 K, 405 CG, 47 SHO, 1.09 WHIP
POY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 2
WS Victories: 1
No-Hitters: 3
Led League in: WHIP 2, CG 1, SHO 1
Career Top 10: NONE

Tobe Palmer, Last Season: 1936, HOF Standard: 41
266-185, 59.0%, 3.48 ERA, 4316 IP, 1410 BB, 1763 K, 395 CG, 37 SHO, 1.35 WHIP
POY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 6
WS Victories: 5
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: IP 1, K 1
Career Top 10: NONE

metsgeek · 08-24-2004, 12:30 PM

Baum
Parrish (Gotta vote for the TWB Gehrig)
Reneau
Graves
Zegri
Dark Horse Allen
Ray of Light Brown
Seifried
Schwarz
Krosser

I wish I could vote for more than 10 this season.

rogmax11 · 08-24-2004, 12:33 PM

Dark Horse Allen-- boy, was I wrong about him, time to make amends.
Seifried
Fournier
Ben Baum-- a no-doubter
Reneau
Zegri
Brown-- its all about those 11 gold gloves.
McBean
Krosser
Haggan-- 600 complete games, even by OOTP standards, is astonishing. 337 wins aint too shabby either.

Ankhiel · 08-24-2004, 12:34 PM

Baum
Haggan
Fargo

lgkeeper · 08-24-2004, 12:42 PM

Siefried
Brown
Schwarz
Baum
Haggan

scprideandms · 08-24-2004, 12:55 PM

Siefried Zegri Renau Baum Krosser McBean

tward13 · 08-24-2004, 12:58 PM

Allen
Baum
Haggan
Krosser
Zegri

LivnLegend · 08-24-2004, 01:26 PM

Siefried
Brown
Schwarz
Baum
Haggan
Fargo

ifspuds · 08-24-2004, 01:51 PM

Seifried
Allen
Schwarz
Baum
Krosser

jdw · 08-24-2004, 02:11 PM

In alpha order:

Hitters:
Dark Horse Allen
Rabbi Baum,
Slap Hertzog
Patrick Seifried
Bull Zegri

Pitchers:
Mark Krosser

On Wizard Reneau vs. Schwarz, people probably should vote for Wiz ahead of Schwarz. Wiz's R+RBI is actually 19 higher. His OPS is _much_ higher -.829 vs. .760. Heck, .317/.382/.447 smokes .260/.312/.448 despite the HR advantage Schwarz has. Wiz's leaderboard appearances BA (2-2-7), OBP (2-2-8-9), SLG (5-8-10) and OPS (2-6-10) swamp Schwarz's SLG (1-2-2-5-6) and OPS (3-8-10). Schwarz was an "RBI Man" (1-3-6-9-9-9-9) while Wiz was a Run Man (1-3-4-7-7-10) that pretty much wash out. Gold Glove catcher (one of the best ever with 8) vs. Gold Glove SS ("just" three). I know Schwarz held the all-time HR record. He's not exactly Dave Kingman, but he's not Mike Schmidt either.

As you can see, I didn't vote for Wiz. He's close. An .829 OPS from a Gold Glove middle IF is very impressive. Flaky was a .838. Of course he played a large chunk of his career in the dead ball era, while Wiz got the lively ball. You can look at Flaky in the BA/OBP/SLG/OPS leaderboards and see that in the context of his time he was consistently a better hitter than Wiz. So I'm being cautious with Wiz until we look a bit more into him. Then again, one can take a look at Schwarz and compare him with the Great Catchers who came before him and see he comes up very short.

John

fhomess · 08-24-2004, 02:46 PM

Batters:
CF Dark Horse Allen
CF Ben "Rabbi" Baum
CF "Ray of Light" Brown
3B "Frenchie" Fournier
RF Nick Graves
2B Jerry "Slap" Hertzog
1B Patrick Seifried
LF Glendon "Bull" Zegri

Pitchers:
Mark Krosser
Dave McBean

Can someone explain to me why Mark Krosser always gets more votes than Dave McBean? In my book, these guys deserve to go in together. McBean was the equal to Krosser and people are missing that fact.

Krosser has the edge in wins, 266-254, a difference of 12 wins. McBean, however was 30 losses better than Krosser, 181-151. If you calculate the Fibonacci Win Points, McBean has the lead by 262-243 (the formula is FWP=W*W%+Games over .500 as stated in Bill James' Politics of Glory). Now wins are obviously not the only factor. Krosser edges McBean in ERA by a very slim margin (2.50-2.52). McBean edges Krosser in WHIP (1.10-1.06). Both players won 1 Pitcher of the Year award and 1 World Series each.

Krosser beats McBean in CG's 419-386, but McBean had more SHO's (39-55). There are two points in Krosser's favor that I see as not having a match by McBean: IP and K's. Krosser was good for about 400 more IP, or 1.5 seasons, and he struck out 602 more batters, which is significant. I just don't think that IP and K's are enough to vote for one guy over the other.

I just recently read through the Fibonacci Win Points chapter in James' book, which is why I thought I'd apply it here, and it's pretty interesting. It's basically a way of trying to compare players like Sandy Koufax who didn't play as long but were very good with players who played much longer but didn't win at a high rate. James points out that it's only one factor in the analysis since it really only focuses on wins which is team dependant. That's probably why it's not a very popular stat. The other reason it's probably not as popular is that there's not really a good equivalent for batters, although James does present one in his book with some pretty strong reservations about it. Anyway, when I ran the numbers it was one more reason for me to conclude that I think McBean is Krosser's equal, and continue my frustration that others don't seem to notice it as much as I do.

For what it's worth, here are the Fibonacci Win Points for the pitchers on this year's ballot:
262 - Dave McBean
243 - Mark Krosser
239 - "Nasty Ned" Fargo
238 - Tobe Palmer
217 - Will Haggan
181 - "Evil" Gary Archer

And the current HOFers:
440 - Andrew Murphy
407 - Tim Lopresto
309 - Cecil Tan
296 - Scott Fenner
288 - Allen Albertini
284 - Bowie Castellon
263 - Raymond Gindler
234 - Ahrend Nagel

Other Notables:
448 - Jethro Lee
430 - Frank Smith
347 - Otto "Kaiser" Kahle
342 - Anthony "Punchy" Cote
299 - Art Booth
287 - David Wickersham
282 - Bourbon Allen

haggis007 · 08-24-2004, 05:11 PM

Baum
Allen
Schwarz
Zegri
Brown
Reneau
Krosser
McBean
Fenner

Note how I resisted the temptation to vote for Duckie Andrew, even though he's my granddad? Hopefully the Vet Comm. will be more appreciative of a solid big league career than his good-for-nothing offspring . . .

Elendil · 08-24-2004, 05:12 PM

Brown
Zegri
Reneau
Baum
Krosser
McBean
Archer

Vris · 08-24-2004, 07:26 PM

How can you people be so cheap and only vote for 3 or 4? There is actually some quality on these ballots!

In order of randomification;

Patrick Seifried
"Frenchie" Fournier
"Dark Horse" Allen
"Ray of Light" Brown
"Cookie" Parrish
"Rabbi" Baum----staggering number of all them: 0 (# of WS Titles)
Will Haggan
"Shephard" McBean
"Nasty Ned" Fargo
"Bull" Zegri

Fascinating numbers fhomess. It's interesting to see that both of them aren't in the Hall, yet "The Professor", Mr. 100% has a lower FWP and is in. Hmmm...

Another observation, this has to be the Year of the Nickname

Matt from TN · 08-24-2004, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vris

Another observation, this has to be the Year of the Nickname

Lol... If my math is correct, 14 of the 22 players on the ballot have nicknames.

Carlton · 08-24-2004, 09:52 PM

Dark Horse Allen
Shepard McBean
Krosser
Fournier
Brown
Parrish
Haggan
Baum (Go 2nd half of the A's Bombers!)
Archer...The Kid Nichols of TWB
Hertzog

metsgeek · 08-25-2004, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vris

Fascinating numbers fhomess. It's interesting to see that both of them aren't in the Hall, yet "The Professor", Mr. 100% has a lower FWP and is in. Hmmm...

Yes, but as I've said before....the numbers don't factor in CHARISMA

qusip · 08-25-2004, 01:10 PM

Slap Hertzog
Willard Schwartz
Thunder Tumbridge
Rabbi Baum
Will Haggan

jdw · 08-25-2004, 01:15 PM

fhomess wrote:

> Can someone explain to me why Mark Krosser
> always gets more votes than Dave McBean?
> In my book, these guys deserve to go in
> together. McBean was the equal to Krosser
> and people are missing that fact.

I can't speak for other people, but my thoughts are here back in the Time Warp HOF Ballot 1941.

On the Proffesor, he is in for his peak:

Won Pitcher of the Year Award in 1924
Won Pitcher of the Year Award in 1925
Won Pitcher of the Year Award in 1926
Won Pitcher of the Year Award in 1928
Won Pitcher of the Year Award in 1929

ERA
1924 - 2nd
1925 - 1st
1926 - 3rd
1927 - 5th
1928 - 2nd
1929 - 2nd

WHIP
1924 - 1st
1925 - 1st
1926 - 1st
1927 - 2nd
1928 - 2nd
1929 - 2nd

Wins
1924 - 2nd
1925 - 1st
1926 - 1st
1927 - 7th
1928 - 1st
1929 - 1st

His actually better than his ERA placements reflect as he was hurt by his bandbox home park - 3.04 ERA at home and 2.76 on the road. It actually was typically a bigger split than that as his amazing pitching at home in 1925 makes the numbers "close" when they typically weren't:

1925
Home - 18-0 with an 1.87 ERA
Road - 13-6 with an 3.92 ERA

To cross reference with the ERA+ tossed up for Bowie, Krosser and McBean, here are Nagel's in that six year run:

1925 - 180
1929 - 171
1928 - 168
1924 - 163
1926 - 153
1927 - 135

They're better than McBean's peak. Where Nagel run into "problems" is that the rest of his "good" to "average" season fall off fairly fast:

1923 - 139
1922 - 115
1932 - 111
1918 - 110
1920 - 104
1930 - 102
1919 - 102

McBean had five 119+ seasons in addition to his Top 6, three of those five being 130+. Of course there is the slight problem that McBean missed about 1/3rd of his starts in those three seasons, which does cut into the "value" of those season even if the "quality" was better.

Again, people voted for Nagel for the peak. Five POY in six years. I'll grant that his peak isn't one of the four or so best in TWB - Murph and Smith almost certainly would top him, and I suspect that Presto and Dodge would as well. But it's better than McBean and Krosser, and no worse than even if not better than Bowie's. I think we'd all agree that those three are all-time greats. When you're peak is better than three of the all-time greats, that pretty much is the definition of a HOFer, no?

I like McBean. I certainly could support his Vet Committee candidacy. His lack of even a single ERA title or even a WHIP title troubles me. He's right there "among" the best pitchers in the NL for a good amount of time, but really not the best.

John

08-24-2004, 12:30 PM	#3
metsgeek Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Norwood, MA Posts: 5,450	Baum Parrish (Gotta vote for the TWB Gehrig) Reneau Graves Zegri Dark Horse Allen Ray of Light Brown Seifried Schwarz Krosser I wish I could vote for more than 10 this season. __________________ Commissioner - PBRL - Just finished 2009 109 seasons and still running strong!!!

08-24-2004, 12:34 PM	#5
Ankhiel Major Leagues Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 470	Baum Haggan Fargo __________________ GM - TWB Expos Join the fun

08-24-2004, 12:55 PM	#7
scprideandms All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: N KY, 25 miles from Cincy Posts: 1,314	Siefried Zegri Renau Baum Krosser McBean __________________ Change your playground + change your playfriends + change your playtoys + change your playtime = Change your life. If you keep on doing what you've always done you'll keep on gitting what you've always gotten.

08-24-2004, 01:26 PM	#9
LivnLegend Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: 100% pure adrenaline! Posts: 5,624	Siefried Brown Schwarz Baum Haggan Fargo __________________ Excess ain't rebellion. You're drinking what they're selling.

08-24-2004, 01:51 PM	#10
ifspuds Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 2,117	Seifried Allen Schwarz Baum Krosser __________________ Jeff Watson Former dynasty writer and online league player, now mostly retired

08-24-2004, 12:08 PM	#1
Matt from TN Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a funk.... Posts: 3,413	VOTE: Time Warp HOF Ballot 1945 1936 Initial Ballot Results, 1937 Results, 1938 Results, 1939 Results, 1940 Results, 1941 Results, 1942 Results, 1943 Results, 1944 Results No players were elected to the RL HOF in 1945 by the BBWAA, but the following players were elected by the VC - Roger Bresnahan, Dan Brouthers, Fred Clarke, Jimmy Collins, Ed Delahanty, Hugh Duffy, Hughie Jennings, King Kelly, Jim O'Rourke. All players who received at least 5% of votes on the last ballot were retained for this ballot. I also added players who became eligible for the ballot in 1945 (retired after 1939 season). All players not receiving 5% of votes on this ballot will be removed. The TWB VC officially begins in 1946, so all players who have been retired for 20 years fall off this ballot if not elected. Vote for as many or as few as you want. Max votes are 10. HOF Standard: 50 is considered an average HOF'er. 100 is max. Batters Current Career Leaders (Click to View Entire List): AVG: .364 Hits: 4000 HR: 502 RBI: 1847 2B: 665 BB: 1694 R: 2004 SB: 921 Patrick Seifried, 1B, Last Season: 1924, HOF Standard: 51 2720 H, 313 2B, 59 HR, 1195 RBI, 1348 R, 851 K, 1137 BB, 235 SB, .327 AVG, .867 OPS BOY Award: 3 ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 5 Pennants: 2 WS Victories: NONE Batting Titles: 1 Led League in: OBP 3, SLG 1, OPS 2, RBI 2, Runs 2, BB 3 Career Top 10: NONE Paris "Frenchie" Fournier, 3B, Last Season: 1924, HOF Standard: 49 2730 H, 465 2B, 24 HR, 980 RBI, 1511 R, 354 K, 541 BB, 802 SB, .296 AVG, .772 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: NONE Pennants: 4 WS Victories: 1 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: Hits 2, 2B 1, 3B 2, Runs 4, SB 7 Career Top 10: 3B, Runs, SB "Dark Horse" Allen, CF, Last Season: 1913, HOF Standard: 42 1795 H, 213 2B, 67 HR, 709 RBI, 907 R, 528 K, 871 BB, 13 SB, .325 AVG, .883 OPS BOY Award: 3 ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: NONE Pennants: 3 WS Victories: 1 Batting Titles: 2 Led League in: OBP 2, SLG 4, OPS 4, Hits 2, 3B 1, HR 1, Runs 3, BB 5 Career Top 10: NONE "Ray of Light" Brown, CF, Last Season: 1926, HOF Standard: 49 2526 H, 339 2B, 130 HR, 1155 RBI, 1314 R, 969 K, 828 BB, 167 SB, .300 AVG, .836 OPS BOY Award: 2 ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 11 Pennants: 4 WS Victories: 1 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: SLG 2, Hits 2, 3B 1, HR 2, Runs 1 Career Top 10: 3B Jerry "Slap" Hertzog, 2B, Last Season: 1937, HOF Standard: 61 2510 H, 395 2B, 122 HR, 1187 RBI, 1491 R, 899 K, 1509 BB, 41 SB, .314 AVG, .872 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: 1 Gold Gloves: 3 Pennants: 4 WS Victories: NONE Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: OBP 1, BB 7 Career Top 10: BB Cyrus Holloway, CF, Last Season: 1937, HOF Standard: 57 2447 H, 540 2B, 114 HR, 1108 RBI, 1299 R, 537 K, 1215 BB, 109 SB, .315 AVG, .863 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 2 Pennants: 1 WS Victories: 1 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: NONE Career Top 10: NONE Willard Schwarz, C, Last Season: 1937, HOF Standard: 41 2050 H, 359 2B, 340 HR, 1399 RBI, 1106 R, 614 K, 595 BB, 14 SB, .260 AVG, .760 OPS BOY Award: 1 ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 8 Pennants: 6 WS Victories: 5 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: SLG 1, HR 3, RBI 1, R 1 Career Top 10: HR Glendon "Bull" Zegri, LF, Last Season: 1938, HOF Standard: 58 2934 H, 657 2B, 212 HR, 1713 RBI, 1503 R, 454 K, 1560 BB, 25 SB, .304 AVG, .844 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 2 Pennants: 4 WS Victories: NONE Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: NONE Career Top 10: RBI, 2B, BB Rod "Cowboy" Glass, 3B, Last Season: 1938, HOF Standard: 49 2772 H, 479 2B, 101 HR, 1172 RBI, 1293 R, 596 K, 609 BB, 39 SB, .309 AVG, .789 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 1 Pennants: 6 WS Victories: 5 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: NONE Career Top 10: NONE Ralph "Thunder" Tumbridge, 1B, Last Season: 1938, HOF Standard: 28 2086 H, 371 2B, 243 HR, 1409 RBI, 1095 R, 443 K, 762 BB, 24 SB, .274 AVG, .778 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 9 Pennants: 6 WS Victories: 4 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: RBI 1 Career Top 10: NONE Kevin Stines, 2B, Last Season: 1938, HOF Standard: 41 2213 H, 467 2B, 55 HR, 983 RBI, 1191 R, 622 K, 815 BB, 336 SB, .285 AVG, .782 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 10 Pennants: 2 WS Victories: NONE Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: 3B 2 Career Top 10: NONE Nick Graves, RF, Last Season: 1938, HOF Standard: 52 2356 H, 527 2B, 207 HR, 1408 RBI, 1208 R, 775 K, 784 BB, 110 SB, .312 AVG, .877 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: 1 Gold Gloves: 2 Pennants: 1 WS Victories: 1 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: 2B 1 Career Top 10: NONE NEW Howard "Cookie" Parrish, 1B, Last Season: 1939, HOF Standard: 36 2082 H, 481 2B, 228 HR, 1171 RBI, 1010 R, 423 K, 576 BB, 6 SB, .312 AVG, .860 OPS BOY Award: 2 ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: NONE Pennants: 2 WS Victories: 1 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: SLG 1, OPS 1, 2B 1, RBI 1 Career Top 10: NONE Donald "Duckie" Andrew, 2B, Last Season: 1939, HOF Standard: 47 2203 H, 374 2B, 84 HR, 960 RBI, 1472 R, 641 K, 1185 BB, 701 SB, .276 AVG, .789 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: NONE Pennants: NONE WS Victories: NONE Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: 3B 2, SB 5 Career Top 10: SB Dale "The Wizard" Reneau, SS, Last Season: 1939, HOF Standard: 63 2784 H, 340 2B, 91 HR, 1057 RBI, 1467 R, 693 K, 919 BB, 557 SB, .317 AVG, .829 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 3 Pennants: 6 WS Victories: 5 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: 3B 2, Runs 1, SB 2 Career Top 10: NONE Ben "Rabbi" Baum, CF, Last Season: 1938, HOF Standard: 78 3297 H, 439 2B, 238 HR, 1645 RBI, 1719 R, 698 K, 1015 BB, 192 SB, .337 AVG, .907 OPS BOY Award: 3 ROY Award: 1918 Gold Gloves: 1 Pennants: 4 WS Victories: NONE Batting Titles: 2 Led League in: OBP 1, SLG 2, OPS 2, Hits 3, HR 2, RBI 1, Runs 1 Career Top 10: RBI, Runs

08-24-2004, 12:33 PM	#4
rogmax11 All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,320	Dark Horse Allen-- boy, was I wrong about him, time to make amends. Seifried Fournier Ben Baum-- a no-doubter Reneau Zegri Brown-- its all about those 11 gold gloves. McBean Krosser Haggan-- 600 complete games, even by OOTP standards, is astonishing. 337 wins aint too shabby either.

08-24-2004, 12:42 PM	#6
lgkeeper All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: My front porch lookin' in Posts: 1,136	Siefried Brown Schwarz Baum Haggan

08-24-2004, 12:58 PM	#8
tward13 All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,957	Allen Baum Haggan Krosser Zegri

08-24-2004, 02:11 PM	#11
jdw All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,108	In alpha order: Hitters: Dark Horse Allen Rabbi Baum, Slap Hertzog Patrick Seifried Bull Zegri Pitchers: Mark Krosser On Wizard Reneau vs. Schwarz, people probably should vote for Wiz ahead of Schwarz. Wiz's R+RBI is actually 19 higher. His OPS is _much_ higher -.829 vs. .760. Heck, .317/.382/.447 smokes .260/.312/.448 despite the HR advantage Schwarz has. Wiz's leaderboard appearances BA (2-2-7), OBP (2-2-8-9), SLG (5-8-10) and OPS (2-6-10) swamp Schwarz's SLG (1-2-2-5-6) and OPS (3-8-10). Schwarz was an "RBI Man" (1-3-6-9-9-9-9) while Wiz was a Run Man (1-3-4-7-7-10) that pretty much wash out. Gold Glove catcher (one of the best ever with 8) vs. Gold Glove SS ("just" three). I know Schwarz held the all-time HR record. He's not exactly Dave Kingman, but he's not Mike Schmidt either. As you can see, I didn't vote for Wiz. He's close. An .829 OPS from a Gold Glove middle IF is very impressive. Flaky was a .838. Of course he played a large chunk of his career in the dead ball era, while Wiz got the lively ball. You can look at Flaky in the BA/OBP/SLG/OPS leaderboards and see that in the context of his time he was consistently a better hitter than Wiz. So I'm being cautious with Wiz until we look a bit more into him. Then again, one can take a look at Schwarz and compare him with the Great Catchers who came before him and see he comes up very short. John

08-24-2004, 02:46 PM	#12
fhomess Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 3,585	Batters: CF Dark Horse Allen CF Ben "Rabbi" Baum CF "Ray of Light" Brown 3B "Frenchie" Fournier RF Nick Graves 2B Jerry "Slap" Hertzog 1B Patrick Seifried LF Glendon "Bull" Zegri Pitchers: Mark Krosser Dave McBean Can someone explain to me why Mark Krosser always gets more votes than Dave McBean? In my book, these guys deserve to go in together. McBean was the equal to Krosser and people are missing that fact. Krosser has the edge in wins, 266-254, a difference of 12 wins. McBean, however was 30 losses better than Krosser, 181-151. If you calculate the Fibonacci Win Points, McBean has the lead by 262-243 (the formula is FWP=W*W%+Games over .500 as stated in Bill James' Politics of Glory). Now wins are obviously not the only factor. Krosser edges McBean in ERA by a very slim margin (2.50-2.52). McBean edges Krosser in WHIP (1.10-1.06). Both players won 1 Pitcher of the Year award and 1 World Series each. Krosser beats McBean in CG's 419-386, but McBean had more SHO's (39-55). There are two points in Krosser's favor that I see as not having a match by McBean: IP and K's. Krosser was good for about 400 more IP, or 1.5 seasons, and he struck out 602 more batters, which is significant. I just don't think that IP and K's are enough to vote for one guy over the other. I just recently read through the Fibonacci Win Points chapter in James' book, which is why I thought I'd apply it here, and it's pretty interesting. It's basically a way of trying to compare players like Sandy Koufax who didn't play as long but were very good with players who played much longer but didn't win at a high rate. James points out that it's only one factor in the analysis since it really only focuses on wins which is team dependant. That's probably why it's not a very popular stat. The other reason it's probably not as popular is that there's not really a good equivalent for batters, although James does present one in his book with some pretty strong reservations about it. Anyway, when I ran the numbers it was one more reason for me to conclude that I think McBean is Krosser's equal, and continue my frustration that others don't seem to notice it as much as I do. For what it's worth, here are the Fibonacci Win Points for the pitchers on this year's ballot: 262 - Dave McBean 243 - Mark Krosser 239 - "Nasty Ned" Fargo 238 - Tobe Palmer 217 - Will Haggan 181 - "Evil" Gary Archer And the current HOFers: 440 - Andrew Murphy 407 - Tim Lopresto 309 - Cecil Tan 296 - Scott Fenner 288 - Allen Albertini 284 - Bowie Castellon 263 - Raymond Gindler 234 - Ahrend Nagel Other Notables: 448 - Jethro Lee 430 - Frank Smith 347 - Otto "Kaiser" Kahle 342 - Anthony "Punchy" Cote 299 - Art Booth 287 - David Wickersham 282 - Bourbon Allen __________________ StatsLab- PHP/MySQL based utilities for Online Leagues Baseball Cards - Full list of known templates and documentation on card development.

08-24-2004, 05:11 PM	#13
haggis007 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 115	Baum Allen Schwarz Zegri Brown Reneau Krosser McBean Fenner Note how I resisted the temptation to vote for Duckie Andrew, even though he's my granddad? Hopefully the Vet Comm. will be more appreciative of a solid big league career than his good-for-nothing offspring . . .

08-24-2004, 05:12 PM	#14
Elendil Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the dynasty forum Posts: 2,318	Brown Zegri Reneau Baum Krosser McBean Archer

08-24-2004, 07:26 PM	#15
Vris Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: somewhere where I don't know where I am Posts: 3,251	How can you people be so cheap and only vote for 3 or 4? There is actually some quality on these ballots! In order of randomification; Patrick Seifried "Frenchie" Fournier "Dark Horse" Allen "Ray of Light" Brown "Cookie" Parrish "Rabbi" Baum----staggering number of all them: 0 (# of WS Titles) Will Haggan "Shephard" McBean "Nasty Ned" Fargo "Bull" Zegri Fascinating numbers fhomess. It's interesting to see that both of them aren't in the Hall, yet "The Professor", Mr. 100% has a lower FWP and is in. Hmmm... Another observation, this has to be the Year of the Nickname

08-24-2004, 09:52 PM	#17
Carlton Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 3,765	Dark Horse Allen Shepard McBean Krosser Fournier Brown Parrish Haggan Baum (Go 2nd half of the A's Bombers!) Archer...The Kid Nichols of TWB Hertzog __________________ "I am at that stage of my life where I keep myself out of arguments. I am 100% self sufficient spiritually, emotionally & financially. Even if you say 1+1=5, you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. Enjoy!"

08-25-2004, 01:10 PM	#19
qusip Bat Boy Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Belton, MO Posts: 19	Slap Hertzog Willard Schwartz Thunder Tumbridge Rabbi Baum Will Haggan __________________ _________________

08-25-2004, 01:15 PM	#20
jdw All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,108	fhomess wrote: > Can someone explain to me why Mark Krosser > always gets more votes than Dave McBean? > In my book, these guys deserve to go in > together. McBean was the equal to Krosser > and people are missing that fact. I can't speak for other people, but my thoughts are here back in the Time Warp HOF Ballot 1941. On the Proffesor, he is in for his peak: Won Pitcher of the Year Award in 1924 Won Pitcher of the Year Award in 1925 Won Pitcher of the Year Award in 1926 Won Pitcher of the Year Award in 1928 Won Pitcher of the Year Award in 1929 ERA 1924 - 2nd 1925 - 1st 1926 - 3rd 1927 - 5th 1928 - 2nd 1929 - 2nd WHIP 1924 - 1st 1925 - 1st 1926 - 1st 1927 - 2nd 1928 - 2nd 1929 - 2nd Wins 1924 - 2nd 1925 - 1st 1926 - 1st 1927 - 7th 1928 - 1st 1929 - 1st His actually better than his ERA placements reflect as he was hurt by his bandbox home park - 3.04 ERA at home and 2.76 on the road. It actually was typically a bigger split than that as his amazing pitching at home in 1925 makes the numbers "close" when they typically weren't: 1925 Home - 18-0 with an 1.87 ERA Road - 13-6 with an 3.92 ERA To cross reference with the ERA+ tossed up for Bowie, Krosser and McBean, here are Nagel's in that six year run: 1925 - 180 1929 - 171 1928 - 168 1924 - 163 1926 - 153 1927 - 135 They're better than McBean's peak. Where Nagel run into "problems" is that the rest of his "good" to "average" season fall off fairly fast: 1923 - 139 1922 - 115 1932 - 111 1918 - 110 1920 - 104 1930 - 102 1919 - 102 McBean had five 119+ seasons in addition to his Top 6, three of those five being 130+. Of course there is the slight problem that McBean missed about 1/3rd of his starts in those three seasons, which does cut into the "value" of those season even if the "quality" was better. Again, people voted for Nagel for the peak. Five POY in six years. I'll grant that his peak isn't one of the four or so best in TWB - Murph and Smith almost certainly would top him, and I suspect that Presto and Dodge would as well. But it's better than McBean and Krosser, and no worse than even if not better than Bowie's. I think we'd all agree that those three are all-time greats. When you're peak is better than three of the all-time greats, that pretty much is the definition of a HOFer, no? I like McBean. I certainly could support his Vet Committee candidacy. His lack of even a single ERA title or even a WHIP title troubles me. He's right there "among" the best pitchers in the NL for a good amount of time, but really not the best. John