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Old 06-10-2006, 08:12 AM   #1
jbergey22
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Ootp2006 & Ootp6.5

I am writing this to hopefully get a response on a few things I mention in this brief summary. I started playing 6.5 again after trying 2006 out til after the first patch realizing it was a long way before it was going to be up to my high standards.

Anyway, the first thing that was always talked about was how much faster 2006 was going to be over 6.5. This is true in some areas but more the most part I can get a lot more accomplished in the same time playing 6.5. 2006 may sim faster, however the other areas right now just frustrate me, game play,(1 game takes an hour in 2006 while 6.5 takes appx 10 minutes) making changes(I click on a player in 6.5 I get an immediate player screen up, a couple more clicks I KNOW the player. In 2006 between lagging around and having to look up KEY categories on different parts of the card, it is taking me too long to recognize players), setting lineups(Trying to figure out what players belong in each minor league level is an exhausing task in 2006, in 6.5 with the simple transaction screen and the set minor league pitching and hitting screens all on one screen, this task seemed simple.) I jjust wanted to start the game with my own draft, I figured it would take 3-4 hours. It took me 3 hours just to get through pick 20 before I had to let the computer finish. It is great that this stuff is being added, but I just dont have time to complete a 2 day draft, spending hours a day changing lineups because I cant trust the AI to do anything right.

I am all for the NEW stats in 2006 except at this point I am wondering, what exactly do they mean? Does a batters average on 0-2 mean anything, is there any rating that make them hit better on 0-2 counts? Its great that they are there but I just dont see how they are going to matter if there are no ratings that make them better in certain situations. Right now I am just wondering if they are there for dressing when all it is doing is slowing many aspects of the game up.

Other things aside, I could still have played 2006 IF the Artificial Intelligence was up to par, right now the computer acts like a complete idiot. IN 6.5 since it was a later version of the game, the AI was actually pretty good. Do we have to wait for OOTP 2012 for the AI to get figured out? I realize this game was created because it has A lot more potential then the previous game, I just dont want to have to wait 6 years to see this potential when 6.5 was ALMOST a perfect game.

Playing out a game right now on 2006 seems like a little league baseball game to me. Lots of errors, HBP's, dumb plays by baserunners. AI manager bringing in pitchers to field in the late innings, closers pitching in the 6th inning. I consider myself a sophisticated fan of the sport, and I just cant play with so many things wrong.

On a side note, at this point I am not concerned with the bugs, as I know they will get fixed. And yes, I did change my mind about the comparison of the new games, when it was first released and I hadnt played 6.5 in a few months I was exciting about 2006, after playing 06 and then going back to 6.5 I now see how great 6.5 was and see how far 2006 would need to go to catch back up.

I thank you for all your hard work Markus, I just hope that this huge step forward hasnt actually allowed the game to take 2 steps backwards. I guess if there was anyone able to pull this off it would be you, implying that adding this incredible unlimited universe feature with thousand s of different capabilities isnt for every programmer.
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Old 06-10-2006, 09:34 AM   #2
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oh oh

OOTP 2006 was doa and hasn't gotten any better with the patch.

The only Lahmans that i can get to work, is from Baseball Mogul 2007, you know its bad when you have to rely on competitors just to play a game....oh wait I have yet to finsh one season, 30 to 40 hours messing with this monstrosity and zip, nada, nada III if you will.

If its not crashing its getting stuck on one date and won't budge because of some minor league ballclub roster glitch. Everytime I try a new season some new problems are encountered!...just noticed another little one when you edit a managers ability with handling rookies it causes a change in veteran handling instead, wheres the quality control mates.

My absolute most fun thing about OOTP 2006 is the countries list, to change a players origin to the United States you must scroll through a list of countries, some of which even the UN hasn't heard of, and most of which dont even have a real baseball, let alone a team within their borders, only to get to the U's and then to find the United States replaced with the word American, too funny. You gotta love some folks attempts at globalizaton.

I'm not giving up on OOTP....yet, but SI sure has some big shoes to fill, and I'd prefer they aren't filled with something you step in.

Rob
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Old 06-10-2006, 09:37 AM   #3
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Think how great it would have been if Markus had just added a great almanac feature to 6.5. Instead we get "War and Peace".

Pitch by Pitch games require 500 keystrokes or more! (250 pitches and 250 resets) It should be automated and allow us to interupt when necessary (start the runner, pitch out, etc). I think I've lasted until the 4th inning.

Broadcast screen is far behind 6.5 (IMO).

This sim should have been called "EEABBJ2006" or Every Evening Accounting BaseBall Job 2006.
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Old 06-10-2006, 09:53 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beach23BoyP
Think how great it would have been if Markus had just added a great almanac feature to 6.5. Instead we get "War and Peace".

Pitch by Pitch games require 500 keystrokes or more! (250 pitches and 250 resets) It should be automated and allow us to interupt when necessary (start the runner, pitch out, etc). I think I've lasted until the 4th inning.

Broadcast screen is far behind 6.5 (IMO).

This sim should have been called "EEABBJ2006" or Every Evening Accounting BaseBall Job 2006.
You don't have to throw every pitch of every game. Hit F1 or Enter unless there's a situation that requires strategy.
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Old 06-10-2006, 11:02 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beach23BoyP
Think how great it would have been if Markus had just added a great almanac feature to 6.5.
I've thought this. An almanac and the waivers issues fixed - and the too many MR's issue.

Time will tell I guess.
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Old 06-10-2006, 11:08 AM   #6
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I felt 6.51 just needed work on the AI and roster management. I never really needed to be able to create a league in Ghana. I just think the time went into the wrong aspects and we have a game that has a fantastic world but no substance inside. The AI is worse than most console games on the market, which is not what you expect from a text based sim.
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Old 06-10-2006, 12:10 PM   #7
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I agree with everything above. I have no regrets that Markus has money from me in every version. It is impressive what this young kid in Germany has pulled off and his incredible attempt to get deeper into the baseball rules, waivers, Rule 5 than any other game on the market.

But I will not get caught in the excitement of the next version unless I read detailed threads about how gameplay has improved. We get VORP in the stats, but we can't warm up a pitcher in the bullpen and have to pay attention to that kind of in-game strategy.

And how can you have such a rich variety of stats and databases with no option to print the screens in many cases. You can't print your manager history or sort columns in the Hall of Fame. Very, very basic oversights.

We get the DIPS model, but we can't act as the third base coach and wave the runner home. Several text-based games give you the option to send the runner (even showing the percentage of success based on fielder arm and runner speed) in the game window.

Both game views are so cluttered and hard to read yet lack the complete information needed to make on-screen decisions like pitch counts, catcher arm (I'm talking about having this on both screens, not one or the other, as it is now.)

Solo play is horrendous now. As noted above, you spend more time clicking, dragging and doing accounting than you do getting ready to play. The fun definitely drained out of this.

It will take many patches to fix the bugs -- but will the fun and gameplay truly be tweaked. I don't see how that is possible without far more programming.

Last edited by rasnell; 06-10-2006 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 06-10-2006, 12:20 PM   #8
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I agree with the post above. All the stats and options in the world don't matter if the AI is complete garbage.

It just seems more and more like the game was made for a select few who had some enormous wishlists for building universes while the many of us who just wanted some better gameplay got the shaft.
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Old 06-10-2006, 02:01 PM   #9
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I love the new look of the game and I think there is a ton of potential.

However I must agree that a great deal of time was spent on things that I personally could care less about - such as "world" baseball and what a batter hits after he has had 2 hot dogs and a coke. Of course these are the same concerns I was voicing over a year ago when the plan for this game was announced.

Not nearly enough time was spent on a solid MLB sim with realistic results, AI and game play.
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Old 06-10-2006, 02:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giants44
I love the new look of the game and I think there is a ton of potential.

However I must agree that a great deal of time was spent on things that I personally could care less about - such as "world" baseball and what a batter hits after he has had 2 hot dogs and a coke. Of course these are the same concerns I was voicing over a year ago when the plan for this game was announced.

Not nearly enough time was spent on a solid MLB sim with realistic results, AI and game play.
I agree. There is a lot of potential. And I'm not at all interested in "global baseball". I just want 50s/60s good old USA type baseball that's fun to play, and has a great stat/almanac feature.
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Old 06-10-2006, 02:33 PM   #11
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Ootp2006&Ootp6.5

As much as it pains me to say it. For the first time since V2 of OOTP I won't be purchasing the product. I'm as big a fan of Markus and what he has brought to the baseball sim world as anyone. True the game is with a new partner (SI) but that doesn't excuse the numerous bugs I've encountered while using the demo. The game didn't come across as fun, the menu was tough to navigate and setting up a league tedious. I will still monitor the boards and hope it changes in time as I really want to like this game!

JT
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Old 06-10-2006, 02:34 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giants44
I love the new look of the game and I think there is a ton of potential.

However I must agree that a great deal of time was spent on things that I personally could care less about - such as "world" baseball and what a batter hits after he has had 2 hot dogs and a coke. Of course these are the same concerns I was voicing over a year ago when the plan for this game was announced.

Not nearly enough time was spent on a solid MLB sim with realistic results, AI and game play.
The thing was that a couple years ago it seemed like the focus would be on the AI and realism. I think the move to DIPS was a start among other things. For one reason or another though, the actual game just took a back seat it seems like.

The single most important thing to me is a realistic game. I want the AI to make the right decisions and challenge me. I want to see realistic stats when I sim. Without those, it's just a lot of great features around nothing. Text based sims must have better AI than their console counterparts.

Last edited by Bears5122; 06-10-2006 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 06-10-2006, 02:36 PM   #13
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The good news is that all the front end architectural work to put together an engine that has the potential to be far better than OOTP6.5 or any other baseball sim is behind us. The bad news is that OOTPD still has alot of work ahead of them to fill out all that potential by stomping bugs, fleshing out features, and getting the IQ of the AI up from Jim Bowden level to at least Dan Duquette level.
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Old 06-10-2006, 02:39 PM   #14
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In some ways, it has to be improved to Randy Smith level; unlike Smith, the computer does seem to have some sense of "sunk cost" in that it'll dump a player as soon as his ratings go south no matter what contract he's signed up to or what he might have done for the team in the past. Occasionally you'll see a team like the Yankees do this (although they sure haven't for Bernie Williams), but it's much more common to see a team that signed a big FA who suddenly lost it to ride him out for a couple years in the vain hopes he'll find whatever magic he lost. This would be a situation where the manager's got to ignore what the scouts are telling him.
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Old 06-10-2006, 02:39 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azamien
You don't have to throw every pitch of every game. Hit F1 or Enter unless there's a situation that requires strategy.
I'm sick and tired of reading this generic reponse as hitting F1 denies us of the use of specific hitting and defensive strategies. Simply to hold a runner on is an endless pain since you have to read each pitch which is as exciting as watching paint dry in a humid room.

I switched back to 6.5 and it is like returning to the comfort of your own home after a terrible vacation.
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Old 06-10-2006, 03:07 PM   #16
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I've been playing the demo and I have to admit until more changes are make I'm going to stick with 6.5 and puresim 2007 (which I've played the demo for and seriously thinking about picking up).

I realize I criticised some of you for complaining about the interface. I apoligize now. I'm having a hell of a time just setting up the lineups.

No expansion sucks, considering both other releases (Baseball Mogul and Pursim) both found time to add it in (although it has been promised as a patch for ootp2006).

I can't comment on the AI as I have not gotten the chance to play a single game. All my time has been taken trying to figure out the interface and in setting things up. Not being about to save template leagues is a huge frustration.

No almanic/milestones really hurts, and I'm not sure I'll create a league for serious play until they find their way into the game.

There are some really great things though. The ability to toggle financials is great. The web cast screen looks noce (can't comment for sure until I use it yet though). The full minor leagues looks like a great start but I'm not sure if we are there yet.

Hoipefully several hard core patches will be released over the next few weeks to address these problems and improve what is already there. Until them I'm going to hold off.
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Old 06-10-2006, 03:09 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtsly2000
As much as it pains me to say it. For the first time since V2 of OOTP I won't be purchasing the product. I'm as big a fan of Markus and what he has brought to the baseball sim world as anyone. True the game is with a new partner (SI) but that doesn't excuse the numerous bugs I've encountered while using the demo. The game didn't come across as fun, the menu was tough to navigate and setting up a league tedious. I will still monitor the boards and hope it changes in time as I really want to like this game!

JT
Yep, feel your pain here
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Old 06-10-2006, 10:30 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtsly2000
As much as it pains me to say it. For the first time since V2 of OOTP I won't be purchasing the product. I'm as big a fan of Markus and what he has brought to the baseball sim world as anyone. True the game is with a new partner (SI) but that doesn't excuse the numerous bugs I've encountered while using the demo. The game didn't come across as fun, the menu was tough to navigate and setting up a league tedious. I will still monitor the boards and hope it changes in time as I really want to like this game!

JT
Well I already bought it but other than that I agree with you 100%. Not just the bad AI and interface but buggy and crashy as all get out with the big patch not making any improvments as far as I could tell. Partly this game is so complex that they fix 50 bugs and still dont fix the crashes and the Lahamn loading and the horrible AI. So thats somewhat a testiment to their ambition but also just depressing because I think it will take much more than a few weeks or even months to fix this mess.

Mogul had some bugs on release but now its basically bug free as far as I can tell. PureSim also has some bugs but also so many fewer that ootp so I bet PureSim will get them fixed pretty quickly too.

Edit: Mogul still has one bug that annoys me it lets you put injured pitchers in as relief pitchers so I just have to make a house rule that Im not allowed to do that.
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Old 06-10-2006, 11:11 PM   #19
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I would have paid $100 for this game if it was 6.51 with full minor leagues, imporived AI, and actual MLB roster rules properly modelled. With the complexity of MLB roster rules I think this would have been ambitious enough. Maybe future additions could have added the Japanese League, winter league and/or independent leagues.

As of now the added world features actually decrease realism for those of us wanting to model modern MLB. If you want any Cubans, Japanese, or Dominicans in your league, they will be in the draft. If you have a hole in your AA roster and see a good independent league player, you can't just purcahse his contract. If you try to work around this by allowing trades and just trading for money, it may work for you but the other teams will trade players and there is no minor leaguer who would accept a trade to an independent league. This is without even addressing AI.

I truly think this game CAN get there, but there is no way the above issues will be addressed before next year's version, and I am afraid that since this world baseball can of worms has been opened it will just take that much longer to get the game where it needs to be to model actual, modern, MLB baseball.

Last edited by wish7694; 06-12-2006 at 12:51 AM.
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Old 06-10-2006, 11:27 PM   #20
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I have to say that the manual is great if you do not mind reading 350 pages. For those of us with ADHC or ADD it is way too long even after the medication kicks in...lol Another thing I want to be able to adjust stadium factors without having to go to several websites and a ballpark factor database and trying to get the stasdium X&Y coodinates to lineup and yes this is important to me. I for one will not go back to 6.51 and will master this eventually. I bought the game before itcame out and have not got past spring training yet. I am one of those who works alot of hours and does not have enough hours in the day to play this slow moving game...the sim speed is great but there are so many things you have to do before you can sim the game, every day... But like I said before I am going to master this game somehow...Kudos to Markus, this is the mos complex baseball game I have ever played.
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