Relievers turning into starters

[Dyzalot]

How do you guys handle cases like this? I never saw him as anything more than a potential top closer but all of a sudden his stamina has gone from 3 to 6 (1-20 scale) and the scouts now consider him to be the 3rd best "#1 starter" in MLB. It seems so unrealistic to switch him and yet I also feel like I'm wasting his talent by keeping him a reliever. Ratings shown are when his position is a reliever. As a starter his stuff drops to "only" 19. What would you do?

[thriller13]

He has 3 good pitches and with the rest of his ratings, he should be a high quality starter. I have had this happen once with my closer. One day I noticed that he had 3 pitches so I moved him to the rotation. It was a successful move, I think he won 19 games a couple of times IIRC.

[Dyzalot]

Yeah I'm just torn on this one between using him to his full potential and keeping my sim realistic to MLB where you never see a top reliever all of a sudden get used as a starter at the age of 29. It just seems so unrealistic to switch him at this point.

[JcBoscan]

I'd say it's rare, but it's not unheard of for a guy to go from the bullpen to the rotation after a few years. Jeff Samardzija was a reliever for a few years before going to the rotation at 27 or 28.

[ThePretender]

CJ Wilson is another case. It happens more often than you think.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by JcBoscan

I'd say it's rare, but it's not unheard of for a guy to go from the bullpen to the rotation after a few years. Jeff Samardzija was a reliever for a few years before going to the rotation at 27 or 28.

Originally Posted by ThePretender

CJ Wilson is another case. It happens more often than you think.

Yes but both of them were starters in the minors. This guy has now pitched for 8 years professionally without a single start. Got an example in history that fits that story?

[yclept]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

Yes but both of them were starters in the minors. This guy has now pitched for 8 years professionally without a single start. Got an example in history that fits that story?

Best one I can come up with is Alexi Ogando, though he didn't stay in the rotation for long.

[JcBoscan]

Maybe Woody Williams? Kenny Rogers? He's a knuckler, but Charlie Hough.

Those aren't perfect examples. I'm just saying if you have a special case in your league and you think it would work, then I wouldn't let it get in the way of realism. I think it's certainly plausible.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by yclept

Best one I can come up with is Alexi Ogando, though he didn't stay in the rotation for long.

Yeah he's close although he did at least have a few starts in the minors and he only played one season of MLB before switching to the rotation. I'd find my example a lot more believable if the scouts weren't declaring him one of the top five starters in the majors without ever seeing him start a game. If he was projected as a marginal 5th starter it might make a lot more sense.

Originally Posted by JcBoscan

Maybe Woody Williams? Kenny Rogers? He's a knuckler, but Charlie Hough.

Those aren't perfect examples. I'm just saying if you have a special case in your league and you think it would work, then I wouldn't let it get in the way of realism. I think it's certainly plausible.

I don't believe it is plausible at all that he would be projected as an All Star level starter without having a single start in pro baseball. Plausible would be if he was projected as a marginal starter. No one goes from having 8 seasons of pro ball as a reliever and then instantly becomes an ace.

[JcBoscan]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

Yeah he's close although he did at least have a few starts in the minors and he only played one season of MLB before switching to the rotation. I'd find my example a lot more believable if the scouts weren't declaring him one of the top five starters in the majors without ever seeing him start a game. If he was projected as a marginal 5th starter it might make a lot more sense.



I don't believe it is plausible at all that he would be projected as an All Star level starter without having a single start in pro baseball. Plausible would be if he was projected as a marginal starter. No one goes from having 8 seasons of pro ball as a reliever and then instantly becomes an ace.

All I can say is truth is sometimes stranger than fiction. If it's happening to a bunch of guys every year (or even a few), then I'd be concerned. But a one-off case? I'd roll with it. Just me.

[NoOne]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

Yeah I'm just torn on this one between using him to his full potential and keeping my sim realistic to MLB where you never see a top reliever all of a sudden get used as a starter at the age of 29. It just seems so unrealistic to switch him at this point.

i wouldn't put too much on that perception... if the right situation arose in RL it would occur and likely already has.

anyway, he's a wicked pitcher, first and foremost. as an SP you may barely get ~200-210innings in his best years.. 30-40+ less than someone with more stamina in the same # of GS ("very low" sp stam setting - Stats and AI).

he also won't make full use of his elevated stamina as a closer... meh not much loss there, but definitely more WPA or WAR as an SP than a RP is the bottom line.

imo, i use these players as needed each year. i don't recall ever switching them up mid-year, although i wouldn't say "never."

if you want to be more realistic, just don't do it year-by-year, like me, and the player's more likely to prefer SP, if not only for the money.

smoltz went sp, then cl for a few years, then back to sp right? much older than 29 too. pretty sure it was his preference too.


EDIT: based on his bb/9 rate, he may not be accurately rated for Control. somethign to keep an eye on. depends on differences on our league's ~bb/9 average. (LT/LTM resulting stuff). ~4-4.5bb/9 is below 1/2 scale in my league... maybe 40-45/100. a bit weak for an SP, typically. i have seen a successful SP with high bb/9 before... just more difficult / less likely

[victims_sanction]

This just happened with Ken Giles in my sim in 2024. Became a starter all of sudden and tore it up. Gonna have to post a screenshot of his year later.

[t-bone shuffle]

I think this also points to an overall flaw in the pitching model as well. The whole SP/RP stamina thing isn't really modelled acurately in that for example, an RP who's been a 1IP/25 pitches guy, can turn around and throw 85 to 100 pitches without a "stretching out" period. That's not to say it's physically impossible, just that it doesn't happen IRL.

Not a deal breaker for me, but it's an undeniable inaccuracy.

[NoOne]

that actually happens all the time too... just not with the bigger names very often.

just on the tigers recently - phil coke had plenty of stamina but not a 3rd pitch of value to a starter. drew verhagen has oscillated between rp/sp over his recent MiL career. the high-end guys don't do this and rarely with established players, but still should happen.

like someone else said above the problem isn't that it occurs... the potential problem is if it occurs too often or too seldomly. a god expectation is anywhere in the ballpark for somethign like this.

not all pitchers in the MLB can throw 100-120 pitches without major fatigue problems, but many/most can, if you ignore the need for 3 decent pitches and the right combinations.

they prepare differently, therefore their use of stamina is different. it should be though of a completely different position and role than an SP. their jobs are significantly different and require significantly different talents for long-term success. just as fatigue per game is different for a C and a 1B, fatigue is different for SP and RP.

[Danius]

Mike Clevinger is also an example, to some extent. He was a starting pitcher in the minors before joining the Indians, but he averaged less than 5 innings a start in his minors career, and it's always been assumed he'd be a bullpen guy if he made it to the majors because he didn't rate as having the stamina to be a major league starter. He's 26 now, and he's had some very impressive outings for Cleveland this year, and he's projected to be a front-to-mid rotation starter for years to come, and he might have the stuff to be an ace in the next few years. Yes, it's not exactly apples-to-apples, but if the Indians kept him in the bullpen for the next couple of years, then turned him into a starter when he was 100% ready (stamina and control maxed), he could very well go from dominant reliever to dominant starter at the flip of a switch. If needs (injuries) didn't dictate, he might not have been a starter for the Indians up to this point.

Also Chuck Finley made 85 appearances out of the bullpen in his minor and major league career over 4 years before he ever made a start in professional baseball. In his second year as a starter in 1989 (not including 3 starts in September 1987), he made the All-Star team, and finished with a 2.57 ERA and 4.9 WAR in 29 starts.

[Dyzalot]

Again, my example is of a guy who pitched for 8 years professionally & always had 3 pitches but never had the stamina to start until he turned 29. Once that happened, every scout in the majors declared him a top ten starter before he ever started a game at the age of 29. Just doesn't seem very realistic to me.

[TuckerDuckson]

Joe Biagini and Brent Suter are examples that have happened just this year of mainly MLB relievers who were converted to the starting rotation out of what seemed like necessity.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by TuckerDuckson

Joe Biagini and Brent Suter are examples that have happened just this year of mainly MLB relievers who were converted to the starting rotation out of what seemed like necessity.

They were both starters in the minors.

['94 EXPOS]

Jeff Fassero is probly the best example I can think of that fits this profile....was a lights out setup guy for 2 years and into his 3rd year where made the switch to the rotation mid-season (in his late 20's I believe)

I am sure he started in the minors but I don't think that takes away too much from this example....as someone said if this is happening all the time that not too realistic but if only occasionally then you might as well enjoy it!

[TuckerDuckson]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

They were both starters in the minors.

Joe Biagini was a reliever all last year for the Jays, and never really projected as starting talent.

Many relievers are starters in the minors, who have the stamina to start, but just don't have the repertoire to do it in the big leagues.

Michael Blazek was an example of this. He was primarily a reliever for his entire Major League career. He has the stamina to start (as he started in the minors), but he got completely shelled against the Nationals because he hung like 4 curveballs in a row. He may have the stamina, but he didn't the pitches to start.

Biagini and Suter are also examples of this. Biagini wasn't protected in the Rule 5 draft because he was seen as a "long-term starter" with that basically meaning his ceiling was a bullpen piece. He's now starting after relieving all last year.

Suter, now I'm pretty sure he was pressed into starting because of Injuries and ineffectiveness by the Brewers starters. Hell, the fact that Blazek even got a start is kind of damning. Anderson was hurt, Wily Peralta was demoted, Jungmann is in Triple A, Guerra's in Triple A, and Woodruff got hurt too. I think he was presumed to work like Josh Hader is this year, to be a long man who started in the minors, but never really has a shot at the rotation.

The Brewers are running a four man rotation right now, with Anderson, Davies, Nelson and Garza.