Vesting Option Problem

panda234 · 03-08-2019, 10:07 PM

I took a washed up pitcher in a trade to make it work. He is making 17.6m and has a vesting option requiring 25 GS next year. When I try to release him it says I have to eat 2 years of his contract. If I release him he won't get his 25 GS next year so why would I have to pay his salary?

Findest2001 · 03-08-2019, 10:09 PM

It's just a guess but from what I understand you can only release the player during the year PRIOR to the vesting option to not have to pay the extra salary. There are clauses built in that basically state if you release the player it must be ASSUMED they would have met the vesting requirements.

It's legalese to basically thwart teams from cheating the vesting terms.

I could be wrong, though.

panda234 · 03-08-2019, 10:23 PM

He is in the year prior to the vesting option now. It might be something in the contract terms to prevent abuse but this guy can't go to the bathroom without going on the DL.

Findest2001 · 03-08-2019, 10:25 PM

What part of the year are you in? Spring training? Preseason? I think if you release him after spring training starts you can avoid the penalty. Not sure, though.

panda234 · 03-08-2019, 10:28 PM

Coming up to the trade deadline. He is on regular contract now and next year he has the vesting terms.

I should have checked first, might just have to eat $18m next year. But I'm playing LAD so it's not the end of the world.

Findest2001 · 03-08-2019, 10:37 PM

Could you shop him and retain say, 50% of his contract? Then you only pay 50% of this year's remaining salary and the other team would have to pick up the full 100% of next year if the option were to vest...

panda234 · 03-08-2019, 11:08 PM

yeah, good idea, thx. I'll try and come up with some package to offload him. Trading deadline coming so might get lucky...

panda234 · 03-09-2019, 01:57 PM

I'm thinking I don't understand vesting options. I'm in 2023 and the contract pays 17m. Next year, 2024, there is a vesting option requiring 25 GS. Year 2025 the player is arbitration eligible.

What year does he need to get 25 GS?

Findest2001 · 03-09-2019, 02:49 PM

This current sim year. You are in the last year of the guaranteed part of the contract. The vesting happens in the year PRIOR to the option. So, if the option if for 100 games played for 2020, then in 2019 he will have to play 100 games to be able to use the option for 2020

panda234 · 03-09-2019, 03:50 PM

Got it! Thx, so that means after this year I should be able to release him at the end of this year as long as he doesn't have 25 starts. He's still on the DL from injuring his back tying his shoes so no worry about him making 25 starts...

Findest2001 · 03-09-2019, 06:12 PM

You won't even have to release him. If he doesn't make 25 starts he will automatically become a free agent after the season.

BMW · 03-09-2019, 07:44 PM

I found this at some point as well. I don't think OOTP is remotely doing it correctly.

I did some research, and it turns out that the number of players released while having vesting clauses (for which there is news documentation) is incredibly low. I think I found two or three. But all of them resulted in the player not getting the vesting money.

Found the research, which I had done in 2016:
I searched every contract in Cot's Baseball Contracts and I finally found two where a players had a vesting option and were released or were DFA'd.

Chris Leroux signed with the Pirates in 2013 where it included a vesting option for 2014. No indication they paid the 2014 option when they DFA'd him and he became a FA to sign with the Yakult Swallows. (Leroux wasn't released because he didn't have enough service time to refuse assignment to the minors. However, if you are DFA'd a second time in your career, you do have the option to become a free agent instead of reporting to the minors. And for the Pirates that's good because if he elects to not report and become an FA, they don't have to pay the remainder of the contract they owe him - he forfeits it.)
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/...is-leroux.html

The other was Brandon League, who fits exactly into the scenario we're discussing. He had a 3 year deal (2012-2015) with a vesting option for 2016. He was a disaster, and they released him in early 2015. They didn't pay that option because (surprise!) the whole point of a vesting option is that you actually have to do something on the field to get it to vest. In this case, League needed to pitch 55 games. The Dodgers paid him the remainder of his 2015 salary which was guaranteed.
https://www.truebluela.com/2015/7/10...leased-dodgers
https://www.si.com/mlb/2015/07/11/lo...-league-injury
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2015/...-update-2.html

panda234 · 03-09-2019, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMW

I did some research, and it turns out that the number of players released while having vesting clauses (for which there is news documentation) is incredibly low. [/url]

Maybe a player who has reached the point that he can't trigger the vesting clause isn't newsworthy.

BMW · 03-11-2019, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panda234

Maybe a player who has reached the point that he can't trigger the vesting clause isn't newsworthy.

I used Cot's because it simply has the largest repository of current and former contracts with all of their various clauses listed out. The circumstance itself is probably fairly rare. But so far, there's no evidence out there that vesting clauses in contracts act the way OOTP does them, and all evidence available points to the exact opposite.

Here's some more evidence that options don't automatically vest when you're released:
As noted in the original update, both Nick Swisher and Michael Bourn had vesting options for the 2017 season as well, but those options were negated when each was released from the four-year contracts they initially signed with the Indians.
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/...-update-3.html

And another one:
Scott Downs, White Sox: Downs had a $4MM vesting option that would have vested with 55 appearances, as MLBTR’s Tim Dierkes reported in June (via Twitter). Though he appeared to be headed in that direction earlier in the year, the White Sox cut bait with Downs and his then-6.08 ERA. He owns a 3.55 mark over 12 2/3 innings with the Royals — who signed him to a separate, minor-league deal — and has now thrown in 53 games, but the vesting clause is now a moot point.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014/...-update-2.html

And another one:
Kevin Gregg — $6MM option vests with 50 games finished. Gregg finished only 13 games before the Orioles released him last weekend.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/...ns-update.html

So that's basically six players I have found documentation for that were released with vesting clauses in their contracts, and all six didn't get vested.

panda234 · 03-12-2019, 12:52 AM

It worked! End of season and here's what I got:

"Player did not meet the statistical requirement for his vesting option. His last contract year gets voided and he will become a free agent unless you do not negotiate an extension."

Findest2001 · 03-12-2019, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panda234

It worked! End of season and here's what I got:

"Player did not meet the statistical requirement for his vesting option. His last contract year gets voided and he will become a free agent unless you do not negotiate an extension."

I'm guessing you're not going to offer an extension

panda234 · 03-12-2019, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Findest2001

I'm guessing you're not going to offer an extension

No, he's gone.

03-08-2019, 10:07 PM	#1
panda234 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 264	Vesting Option Problem I took a washed up pitcher in a trade to make it work. He is making 17.6m and has a vesting option requiring 25 GS next year. When I try to release him it says I have to eat 2 years of his contract. If I release him he won't get his 25 GS next year so why would I have to pay his salary?

03-09-2019, 07:44 PM	#12
BMW Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2003 Location: New Jersey Posts: 2,030	I found this at some point as well. I don't think OOTP is remotely doing it correctly. I did some research, and it turns out that the number of players released while having vesting clauses (for which there is news documentation) is incredibly low. I think I found two or three. But all of them resulted in the player not getting the vesting money. Found the research, which I had done in 2016: I searched every contract in Cot's Baseball Contracts and I finally found two where a players had a vesting option and were released or were DFA'd. Chris Leroux signed with the Pirates in 2013 where it included a vesting option for 2014. No indication they paid the 2014 option when they DFA'd him and he became a FA to sign with the Yakult Swallows. (Leroux wasn't released because he didn't have enough service time to refuse assignment to the minors. However, if you are DFA'd a second time in your career, you do have the option to become a free agent instead of reporting to the minors. And for the Pirates that's good because if he elects to not report and become an FA, they don't have to pay the remainder of the contract they owe him - he forfeits it.) https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/...is-leroux.html The other was Brandon League, who fits exactly into the scenario we're discussing. He had a 3 year deal (2012-2015) with a vesting option for 2016. He was a disaster, and they released him in early 2015. They didn't pay that option because (surprise!) the whole point of a vesting option is that you actually have to do something on the field to get it to vest. In this case, League needed to pitch 55 games. The Dodgers paid him the remainder of his 2015 salary which was guaranteed. https://www.truebluela.com/2015/7/10...leased-dodgers https://www.si.com/mlb/2015/07/11/lo...-league-injury https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2015/...-update-2.html __________________ Last edited by BMW; 03-11-2019 at 07:47 PM.

03-08-2019, 10:09 PM	#2
Findest2001 All Star Reserve Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Boston Posts: 960	It's just a guess but from what I understand you can only release the player during the year PRIOR to the vesting option to not have to pay the extra salary. There are clauses built in that basically state if you release the player it must be ASSUMED they would have met the vesting requirements. It's legalese to basically thwart teams from cheating the vesting terms. I could be wrong, though.

03-08-2019, 10:23 PM	#3
panda234 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 264	He is in the year prior to the vesting option now. It might be something in the contract terms to prevent abuse but this guy can't go to the bathroom without going on the DL.

03-08-2019, 10:25 PM	#4
Findest2001 All Star Reserve Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Boston Posts: 960	What part of the year are you in? Spring training? Preseason? I think if you release him after spring training starts you can avoid the penalty. Not sure, though.

03-08-2019, 10:28 PM	#5
panda234 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 264	Coming up to the trade deadline. He is on regular contract now and next year he has the vesting terms. I should have checked first, might just have to eat $18m next year. But I'm playing LAD so it's not the end of the world.

03-08-2019, 10:37 PM	#6
Findest2001 All Star Reserve Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Boston Posts: 960	Could you shop him and retain say, 50% of his contract? Then you only pay 50% of this year's remaining salary and the other team would have to pick up the full 100% of next year if the option were to vest...

03-08-2019, 11:08 PM	#7
panda234 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 264	yeah, good idea, thx. I'll try and come up with some package to offload him. Trading deadline coming so might get lucky...

03-09-2019, 01:57 PM	#8
panda234 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 264	I'm thinking I don't understand vesting options. I'm in 2023 and the contract pays 17m. Next year, 2024, there is a vesting option requiring 25 GS. Year 2025 the player is arbitration eligible. What year does he need to get 25 GS?

03-09-2019, 02:49 PM	#9
Findest2001 All Star Reserve Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Boston Posts: 960	This current sim year. You are in the last year of the guaranteed part of the contract. The vesting happens in the year PRIOR to the option. So, if the option if for 100 games played for 2020, then in 2019 he will have to play 100 games to be able to use the option for 2020

03-09-2019, 03:50 PM	#10
panda234 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 264	Got it! Thx, so that means after this year I should be able to release him at the end of this year as long as he doesn't have 25 starts. He's still on the DL from injuring his back tying his shoes so no worry about him making 25 starts...

03-09-2019, 06:12 PM	#11
Findest2001 All Star Reserve Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Boston Posts: 960	You won't even have to release him. If he doesn't make 25 starts he will automatically become a free agent after the season.

03-12-2019, 12:52 AM	#15
panda234 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 264	It worked! End of season and here's what I got: "Player did not meet the statistical requirement for his vesting option. His last contract year gets voided and he will become a free agent unless you do not negotiate an extension."