Careers Tailing Off?

PoopyJoe69 · 01-10-2017, 08:35 PM

In my fictional league, for whatever reason, people with very good careers (50+ WAR) will often spend the last 2-5 seasons of their careers either entirely on the bench or on a team for about a handful of games before being released. This seems to happen over and over, and my question was if this is accurate to real life? If not, has it been adressed at all?

thorpegiovanni · 01-10-2017, 08:58 PM

If they are old (as in over 31), it's certainly accurate to real life. Their last 2-5 seasons are generally going to be poor, as it's their final run at a comeback before retirement. As players age, they find it harder to keep up with the new talent. Not all of them of course, such as Papi.

Dyzalot · 01-10-2017, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thorpegiovanni

If they are old (as in over 31), it's certainly accurate to real life. Their last 2-5 seasons are generally going to be poor, as it's their final run at a comeback before retirement. As players age, they find it harder to keep up with the new talent. Not all of them of course, such as Papi.

It isn't common that they spend these years on the bench or playing a handful of games before being released. Also I don't think it is very common for 50+ WAR guys to be "poor" once they hit 31.

PoopyJoe69 · 01-10-2017, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

It isn't common that they spend these years on the bench or playing a hndful of games before being released. Also I don't think it is very common for 50+ WAR guys to be "poor" once they hit 31.

And when I say "on the bench", I mean literally only start maybe 12 games all year

Dyzalot · 01-10-2017, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoopyJoe69

And when I say "on the bench", I mean literally only start maybe 12 games all year

Yeah that isn't common. This is one area where I'm not sure OOTP models it that well. Good players seem to "fall off of a cliff" a little early in OOTP as opposed to how many seem to slowly lose their skills in real life.

jpeters1734 · 01-10-2017, 11:36 PM

without doing any actual analysis, so take this with a grain of salt, it does seem like players fall off too suddenly. star players will typically have a few average seasons before they retire. in ootp, they usually drop pretty suddenly from the previous year and will only get a handful of starts. it doesn't make much sense to have an aging star have a good season, his ratings drop and the next year he starts 15 games. you'd normally expect the vet to get a full season's worth of struggles before he gets cut loose. real teams don't normally bench those type of guys

PoopyJoe69 · 01-11-2017, 12:01 AM

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This is one example. Jay Tidwell, #1 overall pick, easy HOF pick by the time his career is winding down. Plays only 6 games in 2037 after coming off a pretty good year in 2036, which was due to injury. Proceeds to play 156 games for a combined 3 teams the next 2 years, starts only 17.

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Size: 294.1 KB

Or Mike Rondorf, another HOF-enshrined player. Plays less than 50 games the next 3 seasons, starting only 1. While he was injured the first year of this, he was perfectly healthy the next 2, and was retained for the full duration of those seasons. And this isn't even including after his last season, in which he was signed to a major league contract, only to be released a few days into the season.

Dyzalot · 01-11-2017, 12:10 AM

I wish I had more guys like your 1st example. Usually the good players in my sims die off by the age of 35.

David Watts · 01-11-2017, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoopyJoe69

Attachment 485316

This is one example. Jay Tidwell, #1 overall pick, easy HOF pick by the time his career is winding down. Plays only 6 games in 2037 after coming off a pretty good year in 2036, which was due to injury. Proceeds to play 156 games for a combined 3 teams the next 2 years, starts only 17.

Attachment 485317

Or Mike Rondorf, another HOF-enshrined player. Plays less than 50 games the next 3 seasons, starting only 1. While he was injured the first year of this, he was perfectly healthy the next 2, and was retained for the full duration of those seasons. And this isn't even including after his last season, in which he was signed to a major league contract, only to be released a few days into the season.

Are you by any chance using the reserve clause instead of free agency?

Padreman · 01-11-2017, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoopyJoe69

Attachment 485316

This is one example. Jay Tidwell, #1 overall pick, easy HOF pick by the time his career is winding down. Plays only 6 games in 2037 after coming off a pretty good year in 2036, which was due to injury. Proceeds to play 156 games for a combined 3 teams the next 2 years, starts only 17.

Attachment 485317

Or Mike Rondorf, another HOF-enshrined player. Plays less than 50 games the next 3 seasons, starting only 1. While he was injured the first year of this, he was perfectly healthy the next 2, and was retained for the full duration of those seasons. And this isn't even including after his last season, in which he was signed to a major league contract, only to be released a few days into the season.

Give those guys some decent uniforms

saturn2187 · 01-11-2017, 10:14 AM

I think having ratings turned on increases the frequency of this happening.

In real life you won't know exactly whether a guy is done or not. Could be slumping, etc. Not to mention, teams will give a "popular" player a longer leash out of loyalties.

In the game, once you see his ratings take a hit there's no reason to play him anymore. No loyalties exist either.

PoopyJoe69 · 01-11-2017, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Watts

Are you by any chance using the reserve clause instead of free agency?

I started fresh in 2016, so all of my rules are the default 2016 ones.

Lukas Berger · 01-11-2017, 11:13 AM

I think the thing is that in real life these guys would generally retire, rather than hang around as bit players. Or they might play in Asia or somewhere else once their skills declined.

So the skills declining is certainly realistic, but the part where they hang around for several years as the last player on an MLB bench isn't. It's probably something we should look at.

David Watts · 01-11-2017, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukas Berger

I think the thing is that in real life these guys would generally retire, rather than hang around as bit players. Or they might play in Asia or somewhere else once their skills declined.

So the skills declining is certainly realistic, but the part where they hang around for several years as the last player on an MLB bench isn't. It's probably something we should look at.

See, I think it's more of a matter of the AI not releasing or demoting this type of player. That's why I was asking if the OP was using the reserve clause.

ThatSeventiesGuy · 01-11-2017, 11:25 AM

Much like in real life, it kinda just depends on the guy. I've had some guys start to decline in their early 30s, while a few stay productive until their late 30s or beyond. I even had a knuckleballer win my fictional league's Cy Young-equivalent at age 40! While the "average" player dropoff seems to come around the over-35 mark, that's not always the case. One guy in my league currently is still doing .300-30-100 at age 38, so sometimes you get lucky.

Lukas Berger · 01-11-2017, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Watts

See, I think it's more of a matter of the AI not releasing or demoting this type of player. That's why I was asking if the OP was using the reserve clause.

Yeah, that's likely a contributing factor for sure.

Thing is, the ai is going to build the best team it can, so it'll keep these guys on as 25th men if it thinks they're the best option. That's not really an ai problem, it's just the ai building as good a team as it can.

Teams would probably do that irl as well, but why it doesn't happen more imo is the players generally have too much pride to be bit guys and won't sign for MLB teams if they aren't going to play much.

PoopyJoe69 · 01-11-2017, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukas Berger

Yeah, that's likely a contributing factor for sure.

Thing is, the ai is going to build the best team it can, so it'll keep these guys on as 25th men if it thinks they're the best option. That's not really an ai problem, it's just the ai building as good a team as it can.

Teams would probably do that irl as well, but why it doesn't happen more imo is the players generally have too much pride to be bit guys and won't sign for MLB teams if they aren't going to play much.

Would this be related to the AI signing players and them releasing them a few days later? Because I noticed that that happens a lot to veterans

Lukas Berger · 01-11-2017, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoopyJoe69

Would this be related to the AI signing players and them releasing them a few days later? Because I noticed that that happens a lot to veterans

I doubt it. That generally happens when you have roster limits set at the lowest levels of your minor leagues, it makes the ai go a bit crazy!

If you don't have limits set in your low minors though and you're still seeing a ton of sign/release activity within a few days, we might want to see you save files where this is happening.

So you can upload them to the server as described in my sig, and then drop me a line to let me know you did so, and the players that this is happening with in that specific save.

David Watts · 01-11-2017, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukas Berger

Yeah, that's likely a contributing factor for sure.

Thing is, the ai is going to build the best team it can, so it'll keep these guys on as 25th men if it thinks they're the best option. That's not really an ai problem, it's just the ai building as good a team as it can.

Teams would probably do that irl as well, but why it doesn't happen more imo is the players generally have too much pride to be bit guys and won't sign for MLB teams if they aren't going to play much.

I have no problem with guys like this being on a team. I just don't like it when the AI keeps a guy on a roster all season and doesn't use him but a handful of times and then only as a pinch hitter. Heck, if he's there and gets 60+ pinch hit at bats, I'm fine. But, you shouldn't see a guy with say 12 at bats all season taking up a roster spot. By way of example, I think a guy like Paul Konerko comes to mind. He played in only 81 games his final year, but he still had 200+ plate appearances. He played in 23 games at 1B that year and served as a DH in 36 games. The rest of his games were I'm assuming pinch hit appearances. So the Sox found a way to use him. They didn't just buy him a hotel room.

Padreman · 01-11-2017, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Watts

Are you by any chance using the reserve clause instead of free agency?

What does ha info reserve claus do? I'm a bit confused about that

01-10-2017, 11:36 PM	#6
jpeters1734 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Juust a bit outside... Posts: 5,618	without doing any actual analysis, so take this with a grain of salt, it does seem like players fall off too suddenly. star players will typically have a few average seasons before they retire. in ootp, they usually drop pretty suddenly from the previous year and will only get a handful of starts. it doesn't make much sense to have an aging star have a good season, his ratings drop and the next year he starts 15 games. you'd normally expect the vet to get a full season's worth of struggles before he gets cut loose. real teams don't normally bench those type of guys __________________ "Cannonball Coming!" Go Bucs!! Founder and League Caretaker of the Professional Baseball Circuit, www.probaseballcircuit.com An Un-Official Guide to Minor League Management in OOTP 21 Ratings Scale Conversion Cross-Reference Cheat Sheet

01-11-2017, 12:01 AM	#7
PoopyJoe69 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 287	This is one example. Jay Tidwell, #1 overall pick, easy HOF pick by the time his career is winding down. Plays only 6 games in 2037 after coming off a pretty good year in 2036, which was due to injury. Proceeds to play 156 games for a combined 3 teams the next 2 years, starts only 17. Or Mike Rondorf, another HOF-enshrined player. Plays less than 50 games the next 3 seasons, starting only 1. While he was injured the first year of this, he was perfectly healthy the next 2, and was retained for the full duration of those seasons. And this isn't even including after his last season, in which he was signed to a major league contract, only to be released a few days into the season.

01-11-2017, 11:13 AM	#13
Lukas Berger OOTP Developments Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Nice, Côte d'Azur, France Posts: 19,896	I think the thing is that in real life these guys would generally retire, rather than hang around as bit players. Or they might play in Asia or somewhere else once their skills declined. So the skills declining is certainly realistic, but the part where they hang around for several years as the last player on an MLB bench isn't. It's probably something we should look at. __________________ lukas@ootpdevelopments.com Order Out of the Park Baseball 25! Need to upload files for us to check out? Instructions can be found here

01-11-2017, 11:25 AM	#15
ThatSeventiesGuy Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Midland, MI Posts: 3,421	Much like in real life, it kinda just depends on the guy. I've had some guys start to decline in their early 30s, while a few stay productive until their late 30s or beyond. I even had a knuckleballer win my fictional league's Cy Young-equivalent at age 40! While the "average" player dropoff seems to come around the over-35 mark, that's not always the case. One guy in my league currently is still doing .300-30-100 at age 38, so sometimes you get lucky. __________________ https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...00&postcount=1

01-10-2017, 08:35 PM	#1
PoopyJoe69 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 287	Careers Tailing Off? In my fictional league, for whatever reason, people with very good careers (50+ WAR) will often spend the last 2-5 seasons of their careers either entirely on the bench or on a team for about a handful of games before being released. This seems to happen over and over, and my question was if this is accurate to real life? If not, has it been adressed at all?

01-10-2017, 08:58 PM	#2
thorpegiovanni All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 550	If they are old (as in over 31), it's certainly accurate to real life. Their last 2-5 seasons are generally going to be poor, as it's their final run at a comeback before retirement. As players age, they find it harder to keep up with the new talent. Not all of them of course, such as Papi.

01-11-2017, 12:10 AM	#8
Dyzalot All Star Starter Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,735	I wish I had more guys like your 1st example. Usually the good players in my sims die off by the age of 35.

01-11-2017, 10:14 AM	#11
saturn2187 All Star Reserve Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 515	I think having ratings turned on increases the frequency of this happening. In real life you won't know exactly whether a guy is done or not. Could be slumping, etc. Not to mention, teams will give a "popular" player a longer leash out of loyalties. In the game, once you see his ratings take a hit there's no reason to play him anymore. No loyalties exist either.