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Old 06-01-2006, 10:53 AM   #1
Scruff
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Why can we only start in 1901?

Let me start by saying I love the game. We only tend to post issues, not praise, hope this isn't seen as negative.

That being said, why can't we import rookies from before 1901? Many of us think MLB started in 1871, with the formation of the National Association. Thanks for any info, work arounds, etc..
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Old 06-01-2006, 11:12 AM   #2
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I am not certain as I have always started in 1901 but I think there are some workarounds that will allow you to start earlier. Hopefully someone with experience in pre-1901 simming can share some tips.
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Old 06-01-2006, 11:21 AM   #3
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i think arod and garlons database will allow you to go further back
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Old 06-01-2006, 04:08 PM   #4
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Scruff - give me a couple days and I will post an 1871 starter league file. There is a warkaround built in to OOTP that allows you to start before 1901. Create a fictional league in 1870 with fictianal players, set your DB path so that he game will import rookies when the draft rolls along (set the draft to Dec). Then all you have to do when the season ends is manually delete all the fictional players from your league and proceed with the rookie draft....all that you will have left is the real 1871 players at the beginning of 1871. This is a big hassle, plus you have to make sure al your teams have at least 3 pitchers which is another problem because thre were only like 10 pitchers in the league in 1871...I can solve that too. Give me some time and I will have a file available, I like to start in 1871 too :-)
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Old 06-01-2006, 04:27 PM   #5
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Garlon, best of luck with getting that 1871 file going. I will certainly want to make use of it!
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Old 06-01-2006, 05:43 PM   #6
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You can start any year you want by creating a fictional league, deleting the players, and importing players individually from one of the databases. I plan to start in 1890 and use garlon's database when he finishes. Those lahman imports historically don't handle fielding very well and I'm anxious to see Garlon's improvements. I'm using the time now to get accustomed to how to do things. It's getting better, and by the time Garlon's database is out I should be ready to use it.
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Old 06-01-2006, 07:00 PM   #7
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Hmmm, I guess I'd better think about getting those 19th century schedule files done up and made available if folks are going to start pre-1901.

Questions though: what about the 1876-1881 and 1892-1900 period where there is only one major league? And what about 1884 and the UA and the 1890 PL?

I need some idea of folks will intend to handle those areas so I can make the adjustments in the schedule files if need be.
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Old 06-01-2006, 11:59 PM   #8
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An 1871 preset up league would be a great Quickstart idea. Whoever creates one will need to ensure there are 2 leagues so there will need to be some creative lisence regarding the time periods LGO mentioned where there was only one league in existance.
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Old 06-02-2006, 01:07 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange
Hmmm, I guess I'd better think about getting those 19th century schedule files done up and made available if folks are going to start pre-1901.

Questions though: what about the 1876-1881 and 1892-1900 period where there is only one major league? And what about 1884 and the UA and the 1890 PL?

I need some idea of folks will intend to handle those areas so I can make the adjustments in the schedule files if need be.
After consideration, I've decided to go with two leagues all the way through. Anything more will have to wait for an add/delete leagues function.
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Old 06-02-2006, 04:38 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by swampdragon
After consideration, I've decided to go with two leagues all the way through. Anything more will have to wait for an add/delete leagues function.
That's probably the best way to go for now.

I don't think there's any league which could stand in as a second league for the 1871-1876 period, but the International Association is a reasonable second league for 1877-1879 (and some researchers claim it warrants consideration as a major league). The Western League is a good choice for the 1894-1899 period.

I'd suggest something like this for 1876 onwards for the other league:

International Association, running from 1876-1881; this is replaced by the American Association from 1882-1891; the AA is replaced by the Western League for 1892-1899; and lastly the American League replaces the Western League in 1900. (In reality, the Western League really did become the AL in 1900.)

That's a reasonably good comprise with reality, I think.

Still leaves the question of the 1871-1875 and the 1884 UA and 1890 PL though...
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Old 06-02-2006, 04:56 AM   #11
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A few questions about 19th century stuff (I haven't gotten the new version yet, and am wondering how it will handle some of this):

- Can I change league names from year to year? In V6.5 (and earlier), I got around the two-league problem by splitting the National Association (1871-75) and National League (1876-81, 1893-1900) into two arbitrary groups, which meant that things didn't display right in-game. It appears that this version would be something of an upgrade since I could now create two league, but set the equivalency artificially low for years when the league didn't exist. Not perfect, but a better workaround than I've been using.

- What's with the needing to have three pitchers? Is this true? Will the game not progress if I fail to have three pitchers? If so, this is a deal-breaker for me as far as 19th century leagues go.

- Do I have to have playoffs in my leagues, or are those (as in V6) able to be turned off?

- I understand that supposedly I have to have fictional players added in order for my team to have a minor league system. This is probably the thing that I'm most unhappy about. So I guess my question is this: what happens if I say "screw it" and don't have a minor league system at all? What will teams do with those extra players? Will they still develop at the same rate? Will the AI know how to handle these guys and when to "bring them up?" As for the minors, what will happen if I set creation modifiers really low and just rename all the fictional additions something like "FAKE?" Will the game bring these guys up and try to play them in the early 1870s when my rosters generally only have about 15 players per team?

I'm sure that I'll end up getting the new version as soon as some of the more detail-oriented people here have had a chance to really dig for bugs - the possibilities for fictional leagues are just too good not to. However, if the game just won't support some of the envelope-pushing historical stuff I want to do, I'll stick with 6.5 for historical leagues until something better comes along.
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Old 06-02-2006, 05:48 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez
- Do I have to have playoffs in my leagues, or are those (as in V6) able to be turned off?
As far as I can tell from reading the posts on the forums, there's no way to turn them off in this version, at least not yet. Multiple threads have been made regarding this issue and it seems the answer is always the same, either people don't know, haven't figured out a way to do so, or have pretty much concluded that you can't. I know this isn't a definitive answer but it's the best I can give you. From the reading I've done on here I'm leaning towards the answer being no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez
- I understand that supposedly I have to have fictional players added in order for my team to have a minor league system. This is probably the thing that I'm most unhappy about. So I guess my question is this: what happens if I say "screw it" and don't have a minor league system at all? What will teams do with those extra players? Will they still develop at the same rate? Will the AI know how to handle these guys and when to "bring them up?" As for the minors, what will happen if I set creation modifiers really low and just rename all the fictional additions something like "FAKE?" Will the game bring these guys up and try to play them in the early 1870s when my rosters generally only have about 15 players per team?
A friend of mine who owns the game was concerned about the no minors thing as well, as was I, so I did a little digging and found an answer. If you read in the manual there's a section that talks about reserve rosters, which is where players are placed that aren't good enough to make the major league roster when there isn't any minors. It's basically a holding place for all the extras that are on your team so they don't have to be dumped into FA or whatever.

In that section it says the following, "[p]layers on a reserve roster do not generate statistics, since they are not actively playing in any games. However, to prevent such players from failing to progress, players on reserve rosters develop as if they were putting up average minor league numbers."

So basically, the players still have a chance to develop and become major league caliber players even with no minors. The chances are probably greatly reduced since they're developed as average minor leaguers, but the chance is still there.

As for the fake players idea, you're probably right in that the major leagues would pull them up to fill out the rosters. Unless of course you alter the roster limit size for the major leagues. Since leagues starting in 1891 are going to have problems with the amount of pitchers and such, this still probably won't totally fix the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez
I'm sure that I'll end up getting the new version as soon as some of the more detail-oriented people here have had a chance to really dig for bugs - the possibilities for fictional leagues are just too good not to. However, if the game just won't support some of the envelope-pushing historical stuff I want to do, I'll stick with 6.5 for historical leagues until something better comes along.
I can't answer all the questions you posted above, but I did answer a few of them to the best of my knowledge. I'm by no means an expert on the game as I've only had it since yesterday like most everyone else. I have been doing a lot of reading up on posts on the forums since yesterday and reading the manual and such so I do feel I have a good enough grasp to give you the answers I did provide. If they're wrong in any way someone can feel free to correct me.

Hopefully my above answers will be helpful to you and at the very least you still plan on getting the game for fictional leagues, so that's good.
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Old 06-02-2006, 05:55 AM   #13
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Thanks man. The reserve roster thing will probably be the way I will go if a 19th century league becomes viable with this version. Of course, if there are mandatory playoffs, a requirement of at least three pitchers, and the league names are fixed forever, it's kind of all academic either way.

I kind of figured this day was coming at some point, when OOTP would become my favorite fictional baseball career simulator, and I'd have to find something else for a historical career simulator. At this point, it looks like OOTP6.5 is still the best historical career game out there, but hopefully Puresim or something else will step up to the plate (yuk yuk!) and improve upon it at some point.
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Old 06-02-2006, 09:52 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange
That's probably the best way to go for now.

I don't think there's any league which could stand in as a second league for the 1871-1876 period, but the International Association is a reasonable second league for 1877-1879 (and some researchers claim it warrants consideration as a major league). The Western League is a good choice for the 1894-1899 period.

I'd suggest something like this for 1876 onwards for the other league:

International Association, running from 1876-1881; this is replaced by the American Association from 1882-1891; the AA is replaced by the Western League for 1892-1899; and lastly the American League replaces the Western League in 1900. (In reality, the Western League really did become the AL in 1900.)

That's a reasonably good comprise with reality, I think.

Still leaves the question of the 1871-1875 and the 1884 UA and 1890 PL though...
My 1890 league, shelved by the way the AI currently handles minors, assumes that the Player's League revolt was settled just prior to the start of the game by the owners" agreement to free agency for ten year veterans. I could do the same thing with an 1883 start. Either way, I would stick with two leagues and 16 teams all the way through 1960. I would have the three AAA leagues with the PCL teams unaffiliated until 1961, three AA leagues with the same for the Texas League, and an undetermined number of Class A leagues, depending on how much of a masochist I decide to be.

I really don't want to start in 1871, because the setup has to be too ahistorical. Two thing have to happen with the game for me to get started. First, Markus has to fix the minors so that the game won't crash due to the AI mismanagement, Second, I need to be able to save during the creation process. I don't think I can set up what I want at one sitting.
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Old 06-02-2006, 10:32 AM   #15
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I got to observe Babe Ruth developing on a reserve roster for the Cubs last evening, and he had no problems developing.

Of course, that's only one example, but I would suspect and hope that the game has been coded to develop historical players on reserve rosters adequately and properly.
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Old 06-02-2006, 10:42 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Gastric ReFlux
I got to observe Babe Ruth developing on a reserve roster for the Cubs last evening, and he had no problems developing.

Of course, that's only one example, but I would suspect and hope that the game has been coded to develop historical players on reserve rosters adequately and properly.
It has. I believe the players on the reserve rosters when you have no minor leagues are coded to develop as if they were putting up average minor league stats.
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Old 06-02-2006, 02:40 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange
Hmmm, I guess I'd better think about getting those 19th century schedule files done up and made available if folks are going to start pre-1901.

Questions though: what about the 1876-1881 and 1892-1900 period where there is only one major league? And what about 1884 and the UA and the 1890 PL?

I need some idea of folks will intend to handle those areas so I can make the adjustments in the schedule files if need be.
I would completely disregard the UA - it was essentially AA - if you want to make it one of your AA leagues, that'd be kind of cool.

The Players League is a bit different - it was clearly the best league that year, but it dissolved - so I'd say just ignore it.

During the 1-league years (1892-1900), what would be great to do is change the name of the AL to the Western League - and fill it with AAA level players - and manually revert any trades of stars to that league using your commish priviledges.

That might be too much work, but it's kind of a realistic way to handle it.
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Old 06-02-2006, 02:48 PM   #18
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Hadn't read your next post LGO - that's a great idea.

And thanks guys for working on creating this, really looking forward to it.

BTW, I agree that there has to be a way to save during the creation process - I can't do it all in one sitting either.
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Old 06-02-2006, 07:25 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez
...and the league names are fixed forever...
I'm 99% certain you change league names whenever you want. You can definitely change team names and locations whenever you want.
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Old 06-02-2006, 07:27 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by swampdragon
Either way, I would stick with two leagues and 16 teams all the way through 1960. I would have the three AAA leagues with the PCL teams unaffiliated until 1961, three AA leagues with the same for the Texas League, and an undetermined number of Class A leagues, depending on how much of a masochist I decide to be.
Just curious, but why would you want to run all those minor leagues in a historical league anyway? There just going to be filled with fictional players who aren't supposed to make it to the majors anyway... unless you want fictional and historical players mixing. Is that what you're after?
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