Discussion about logo/original art sourcing

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Two points:

(1) Just because one thing is wrong but is widely done does not therefore justify doing another wrong thing.

(2) It all comes down to courtesy. Is it really so awful to exercise a little courtesy and ask the creator of a logo for the permission to use it? Treat others as you would have them treat you.

1) Since we don't take credit for the logos we use, I don't believe that either is wrong.

2) I have no problem with asking a creator for a logo. I never have, nor have I stated otherwise. I even told cooley, who does ask for permission, that its a good thing that he does. I just don't believe we need to. Nicety and need are not the same thing.

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by Nugget699

For the mere fact he has just taken the logos without asking, purely because 99% of the members over on CC would say no. Cephasjames knows this hence why he doesn't bother asking.

Originally Posted by cephasjames

Actually, since they complained, I haven't taken even one logo from over there.

Before they complained I didn't ask because I don't feel that I need to - just like I don't feel that I need to ask for MLB logos because I do not take credit for them.

[Cooleyvol]

Tell me, how does one 'take credit' for a graphic?

I don't even 'take credit' for stuff that is original work from me, so I'm not buying this argument. They don't give a rat's ass if you're taking credit for it or not. They don't want it stolen.

There's a thread over there right now that perfectly demonstrates this. It basically a request for a logo to be drawn. Four variations of it are given and the guy loves them. Thanks the artist and tells him which one he'll be using.

Along comes some other guy who comments that they look great in Madden or something. He didn't ask for them. They werent made for him. The artist calls him down much as you were way back when.

Its the same thing as what we're talking about here.

Cepha, let's say you were really talented at metal scuptures and did one for your yard. What if I like it? I'm not going to sell it, nor claim I did it. I just want it as a part of something else I'm creating. Is it ok for me to stop and take it?

If there wasnt a need to ask, then why did everyone get so angry at your when you didn't? And, to be truthful, no one over there would give you an ok to a request to use their work, so don't act like its your decision not to use work from creamer's.

EDIT: It' really pointless to debate this. You believe its ok to take others' work, and I don't. For that reason, I'll refrain from this thread now and continue asking for anything I want to use.

[cephasjames]

EDIT: It' really pointless to debate this. You believe its ok to take others' work, and I don't. For that reason, I'll refrain from this thread now and continue asking for anything I want to use

Fair enough. Just make sure you contact the New York Yankees next time you want to use one of their logos.

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by Athletics17

My question is, Do all those guys in this thread have expressed written permission to use the names "Pacific Coast League", "Vancouver Mounties", "Seattle Rainiers" and, "Los Angeles Angels" to use in their concept designs??

This is an excellent question that hasn't been answered yet.

Concepts, unless 100% original (which some are over there), use the created and intellectual property (usually trademarked or copyrighted) of someone else for the purpose of the concept artist's creation. And, from what I've seen (and this is probably not always true), the concept artist then does take credit for that concept, thus using someone else's created and intellectual property and claiming it for their own.

Is this okay or is it wrong?

[Athletics17]

You would think Stephen A. Smith and Skip Bayless were debating these topics with all these opinions thrown around like they were facts.

These mods forums have been around for years with many modders taking logos from all over the net. But then we touch on the CC forums and all the sudden it's all wrong and there are unwritten rules about it. Like there is a magic light shining down from heaven just for these guys. If we are stealing so much and costing these guys money then this mod forum would have been shut down a long time ago.

Any image that you don't design that you pull off search engine should be asked for. If were are going to throw Cephsas into the fire, anybody who ever made anything on this forums should jump in also. There is a lot of artwork on the CC forums that isn't 100% original too.

If this is such a big deal lets make a thread, have it stickied about the proper procedures of how we get art and use it. Let stop throwing arrows at each other and be pro active. Every day there is a new modder learning how to make jerseys and logos. There intent is to add to the experience of the game.

If there is this standard, let make it clear so we don't jump down peoples throat because there are trying to add to our community. I don't believe there is one modder that does this maliciously to impact any type of gain of the original artists.

This is a good debate to have. But when this thread is done, I hope we get some positive gain from it. Not back and forth BS about who is right and who is wrong.

[cephasjames]

Not sure if I'm Stephen A. Smith or Skip Bayless, but good post. Thanks!

EDIT: Smith is a bit better looking so I'll be him.

[rocknfire7]

I'm not going to change the way I have shared logos here or anywhere else. If anyone doesn't like that then feel free to contact the authorities or all 30 MLB teams, the NCAA or anyone else that I have lifted logos from to share (freely and without profit). Also feel free to contact the Oakland Athletics baseball club and make sure they sue me and the parents of all 12 kids that use their logo likeness in the incorrect color of purple. What a joke!!

This has been one of the most pathetic debates I have seen here. It belongs in the OT.

[Le Grande Orange]

Well, it would seem the idea of just exercising some basic courtesy is too much for some people to do.

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Well, it would seem the idea of just exercising some basic courtesy is too much for some people to do.

The conversation wasn't about courtesy, it was about necessity.

[CONN CHRIS]

Isn't much of the traffic that site generates coming from the thousands of logos that they have pulled from a multitude of sources and posted?

Isn't this site basically logoserver at the front end to generate traffic with a forum and blog attached.

I don't know if it's right or wrong to use their stuff; it certainly is common sense to ask if they are known to want that but aren't they sort of 'benefiting' off other people's work too?

Perhaps I am missing something though.

[silvam14]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Well, it would seem the idea of just exercising some basic courtesy is too much for some people to do.

I think pretty much every modder here would take down any logo/jersey/cap modified for this game if the creator of said logo/word mark voiced their objection here.

Otherwise, the designer either doesn't know or doesn't care. And since nobody is profiting from making game recognizable logo files, no harm done in my book.

With that said, I would advise people here to not bother posting anything from cc's site since apparently it has been discovered that almost every designer there would forbid usage of their concepts.
As someone who has made a few small donations to that site in appreciating of their work, I'd just as well get my logos and word marks elsewhere (or trace them using illustrator since apparently tht is considers original artwork)

For the amount of time and effort I put into churning out team graphic sets this year (most using just non-proprietary text) I shudder to think if this community held to the higher standards some here profess they follow. I guarantee those game generated logos would be looking pretty good right now.

[rocknfire7]

I would also like to say that ANY work of art that I have known to be an original creation and the creator has explicitly asked that the work not involve a third party I have not shared with anyone other then myself and for use in OOTP. I have no other reason to have these logos. I always credit whomever I know to have made templates also. That being said:

This is not a case of someone having their iron sculpture stolen because they left it in their yard. This is more like me coming along and taking a picture of it and posting it on instagram. There are now at least two copies and the original is still there untouched. I have a couple hundred pictures in instagram of magnificant architecture. Do I need to get permission from a whole multitude of individuals who were involved in the buildings existence before I add the text " St. Louis" to a picture that involves Busch Stadium? I don't see a difference in what the talented people here do to logos by changing them or god forbid remove the ugly trademark for use in a game then what I do with images on instagram. I share them freely and willingly and don't profit from either. I'm almost positive this sort of issue has been solved in court several years ago, otherwise the thousands apon thousands of high school, youth, semi-pro, and other teams wouldn't be allowed to use logos like the Yankees NY anywhere.

I have had requests that could have involved money. I turned them all down. The curtesy comes in sharing what we find so that others don't have to waste time searching for what we need to play OOTP. I'm not selling logo merchandise here. The modders over at CC are a bunch of whiners. Why bring that attitude here? If they don't want anyone to see and therefore lift their work then why make them public? Nothing is stopping them from making their concept forums private and invitation only.

[rocknfire7]

dola.

^^^should I seek permission to type the above???

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

Isn't much of the traffic that site generates coming from the thousands of logos that they have pulled from a multitude of sources and posted?

Yes. About 90% of the work they do at CC's forum uses or is based off of someone else's work/property.

[Ky55Marine]

I can agree with both sides here but the fact remains that it is not illegal because nobody on here is profiting from the images. But knowing how hard these guys work to create what they do. I believe that some kind of recognition should be given somewhere. I haven't put to much work on here that I have really sat down and said i'm going to go through the whole design process for this forum, because I know it is going to be pulled from and used in other ways (I don't really mind that because most of what I do on here takes 10mins). But I do it for the love and experience of OOTP and creating something I consider to be art. The things that I have put on here that I didn't want taken I made it obvious by putting my name over it and for that reason I would want to courtesy of being asked. All that cooley is saying is pour countless ours into doing what these guys do on Chris Creamers site and you would know how they feel.

[Honorable_Pawn]

Originally Posted by rocknfire7

I'm not going to change the way I have shared logos here or anywhere else. If anyone doesn't like that then feel free to contact the authorities or all 30 MLB teams, the NCAA or anyone else that I have lifted logos from to share (freely and without profit). Also feel free to contact the Oakland Athletics baseball club and make sure they sue me and the parents of all 12 kids that use their logo likeness in the incorrect color of purple. What a joke!!

This has been one of the most pathetic debates I have seen here. It belongs in the OT.

Well said, Sir.

[Honorable_Pawn]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

Fair enough. Just make sure you contact the New York Yankees next time you want to use one of their logos.

Exactly.

Its all or none, clearly.