OOTP 15 update #3 (version 15.3.11) now available!

[injury log]

Originally Posted by RchW

You don't have to be a lawyer to understand this stuff. Your bold above is illogical.

Big17easy contended that a trademark holder loses their rights to their trademark if they fail to police that mark in one instance. There's no basis in law for that contention. That's all I said. I don't know how a statement of fact can conceivably be 'illogical'.

There are good reasons for MLB to send OOTP a letter about trademark violation, and I've already said as much. In a post above, I listed the reasons they would. But the mere fact they sent a letter is not evidence that they care very much. I find it bizarre that some people here think MLB either wants to make money from OOTP, or wants to change OOTP. The money they could make won't cover their legal costs, and it's hard to imagine why they would care enough about the details of OOTP features to pay an expensive legal team to spend many hours going over them in detail. OOTP just isn't big enough for it to matter.

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

If you're so sure of your point, feel free to post a case that matches EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of what we would see if there was ever to be an MLB v. OOTP case. Because that's what we need to prove either one of us right or wrong.

I find it odd that you think it impossible to determine how a court would decide a case unless you can find a previous one that matches it in "EVERY SINGLE ASPECT". If one astronaut pushes another out of a space station, would you be unsure of what legal decision would be reached on a murder charge because you couldn't find an identical case in the legal archives?

[Fyrestorm3]

I'm just gonna leave this here. No more whining about not having proper names, now, okay?

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...h-3-later.html

[bazeall]

I have downloaded the game installer from the download page. The check for updated version led me to that page - it said my version was not up to date and led me to the 15.3.11 download (supposedly). I also reached it directly from the web site. But after downloading and installing, my version is still 15.2.8.

How do I download 15.3.11?

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Until and unless there is actually a legal order or judgment, it is a presumption that they have a right to be granted what they are asking for. Merely asking iTunes/OOTP/etc to do something does not mean they would win an order to require it in a legal proceeding, it just means they are asking for it with the assumption that most entities will grant them the request. It does not even mean that MLB would actually take legal action if their request was denied, although they would certainly reserve the right to take such action.

Having been involved in the sending of cease-and-desist and other take down notices, the vast majority are complied with without having to get court orders or even threaten legal action. When there is resistance, and legal action becomes the only venue available, they do not always choose to take that route. In those instances, the entities who refused to comply actually come out ahead of those who backed down easily. It can go lots of ways, but I would never presume that a request to do something carries the same weight as a an actual court order/judgment.

I'm not sure what your point is. Is that your legal advice to Markus? The discussion AFAIK was the obvious need for businesses to protect the value of things they own and to point out that such actions are not necessarily sinister on their face. What I find astonishing is the amount of false bravado exhibited by some who feel entitled to suggest how OOTP Developments should respond without writing a check for their share of the costs/liability. Whatever decision is made it seems to me that it will be made by the owners of the business, in their best interests and the best interests of the products they sell. It's easy to be defiant when one is not paying the bills.

I have more but should probably stop now.

[bazeall]

We get it. There's a name thing / MLB licensing thing.

How do I download the latest update? The download installs the 15.2.8 version.

[byzeil]

Originally Posted by bazeall

We get it. There's a name thing / MLB licensing thing.

How do I download the latest update? The download installs the 15.2.8 version.

Use the link in the OP of this thread.

[bazeall]

I used it, downloaded, and installed. The game version is still 15.2.8.

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by injury log

Big17easy contended that a trademark holder loses their rights to their trademark if they fail to police that mark in one instance. There's no basis in law for that contention. That's all I said. I don't know how a statement of fact can conceivably be 'illogical'.

I said no such thing. This is what I said ...

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

I'm not a lawyer either, but I would think that if MLB knowingly and purposely turns its back to OOTP's use of team names, that would be the first step toward a court determining that the trademark has been abandoned. What's the point of a trademark is it's not going to be enforced? Seriously?

Originally Posted by injury log

I find it bizarre that some people here think MLB either wants to make money from OOTP, or wants to change OOTP. The money they could make won't cover their legal costs, and it's hard to imagine why they would care enough about the details of OOTP features to pay an expensive legal team to spend many hours going over them in detail. OOTP just isn't big enough for it to matter.

Nobody, myself included, has said MLB is looking to make money off OOTP. As for changing OOTP, there are many regulars here, myself included, who are pleading with those making this claim to stop panicking. See the thread Markus started (and subsequently closed) earlier this week that brought the whole team nicknames issue to light.

Originally Posted by injury log

I find it odd that you think it impossible to determine how a court would decide a case unless you can find a previous one that matches it in "EVERY SINGLE ASPECT". If one astronaut pushes another out of a space station, would you be unsure of what legal decision would be reached on a murder charge because you couldn't find an identical case in the legal archives?

Nor would I be 100% sure what legal decision would be made. The one aspect that's different could be what changes the decision.

All I was trying to do when I joined this thread was point out that MLB has a right to require OOTP to purchase a license to use MLB team names. Am I wrong?????

[baseballfan83]

It sounds to me like the MLB is run by greedy idiots. This game alone got me reinvigorated in watching baseball. If not for this game, baseball would still be dead to me (ever since I blew out my arm as a top prospect for the Reds organization in 2002).

*removed this comment as requested*

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by bazeall

I used it, downloaded, and installed. The game version is still 15.2.8.

Where are you seeing that it says 15.2.8, and what type of computer and operating system are you using?

[StickWillett]

I'm basically a new user to this game......can someone confirm for me that when I apply a patch and then we're instructed "need to start a new game for changes to apply" so does that mean I have to actually go back to the opening screen and check the box "new standard game", and not my usual "continue game"? By doing this I will end up losing all my stats for that league and I have to restart that season just for a patch or just because of this patch since it changes opening day rosters? I see this patch includes an "updated new opening day roster" but then I see mention by someone in the forum "saves are unaffected by new versions"? So is there a way of saving my game/league stats if this patch will erase all my stats for the previous game under the previous version?

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by StickWillett

I'm basically a new user to this game......can someone confirm for me that when I apply a patch and then we're instructed "need to start a new game for changes to apply" so does that mean I have to actually go back to the opening screen and check the box "new standard game", and not my usual "continue game"? By doing this I will end up losing all my stats for that league and I have to restart that season just for a patch or just because of this patch since it changes opening day rosters? I see this patch includes an "updated new opening day roster" but then I see mention by someone in the forum "saves are unaffected by new versions"? So is there a way of saving my game/league stats if this patch will erase all my stats for the previous game under the previous version?

No no no, you can continue your game with no problems. The only thing you won't get in your saved game is roster changes that were made. All other changes -- in this patch, bug fixes and 3D fixes on Macs -- will be included.

If you want the roster changes included, you will have to start a new game. But by this point, most of the roster changes are minor -- a player's ratings bumped up or down slightly, a wrong hometown, little things like that.

[bazeall]

"Where are you seeing that it says 15.2.8, and what type of computer and operating system are you using?"

It shows the version number on the opening screen. I use Windows 7 on a PC.

5th time is a charm. Now it's the right version.

[injury log]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

I said no such thing. This is what I said ...

This is what you said:

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

MLB doesn't need exposure. If MLB allows one game to use its trademarked identities for free, it has no leg to stand on to stop anyone else from using those trademarked identities. It's a no-brainer.

which is not true.

And sorry, I didn't mean to single you out; a lot of people said something similar, and it was bothering me a bit. After looking into it, I can find nothing to support the idea that companies are specifically obligated to police their trademarks or lose them.

As RichW pointed out above, a few people seem to be passing themselves off as legal experts in these discussions, and when it comes to law and medicine, I really think people should say whether they're a lawyer or a doctor before giving any kind of opinion, so others will know how much weight to give it. As I've said, I'm no lawyer, so take my comments in that light.

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

Nobody, myself included, has said MLB is looking to make money off OOTP.

A lot of people have said that - not you, but others. Just a couple of posts above, someone said they think MLB are 'greedy idiots' for taking this action, for example. I can only assume that poster thinks MLB wants money, or why else use the word 'greedy'.

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

As for changing OOTP, there are many regulars here, myself included, who are pleading with those making this claim to stop panicking. See the thread Markus started (and subsequently closed) earlier this week that brought the whole team nicknames issue to light.

All I was trying to do when I joined this thread was point out that MLB has a right to require OOTP to purchase a license to use MLB team names.

About all of these things, we agree.

[baseballfan83]

Originally Posted by injury log

A lot of people have said that - not you, but others. Just a couple of posts above, someone said they think MLB are 'greedy idiots' for taking this action, for example. I can only assume that poster thinks MLB wants money, or why else use the word 'greedy'.

They are greedy because they fail to realize what a great marketing opportunity OOTP is to their dying brand. It is no secret that the MLB is a dying sport. The context of "America's past time" is quickly taking on a different meaning. Sure, the sport still has a strong following, but young people have become disillusioned with the sport. Eventually, fans will die off, and if they aren't replacing those fans with new ones, the demand will burn out.

Look, I understand that they don't want just anyone capitalizing on their trademark(s) without paying royalties.

That doesn't mean they can't extend a license to OOTP that isn't greedy. The MLB reserves the right to license their trademark however they choose. So long as they continue to enforce the right to their trademark, it doesn't matter what terms they extend on an individual basis.

The fact that OOTP was forced to remove the names so promptly speaks volumes about the MLB.

In the very least, it means that the developers of OOTP were unable to agree with the MLB upon fair terms for the use of the license. The implications of that are fairly damning.

• They wanted enough in royalties to effectively make development of the game a non-profitable venture.
• They didn't entertain the idea of OOTP obtaining a license, and didn't even extend the opportunity to the OOTP team.
• OOTP simply didn't have enough time to review the terms of licensing with legal council.

The third bullet is the best case scenario because it means there is hope for the future that an agreement can be reached. The fact that they were forced to remove the names in the mean time, though, makes me less hopeful.

MLB is basically getting marketing that they didn't even have to pay for. They didn't have to invest anything into the development of this product. I'm all for them protecting their trademarks, but they don't need to bankrupt OOTP in the process.

This game has been out for 15 years, and they are just now coming after them. Why? I bet it has something to do with the game landing on Steam. I don't think it's a coincidence. The game is gaining popularity. The MLB wants a piece of that pie.

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by injury log

This is what you said:


which is not true.

I should have said, wouldn't have a leg to stand on against other video games. However, I still didn't say anything about losing their trademark in that post. Specific talk of a trademark came up after that, IIRC.

Originally Posted by injury log

As RichW pointed out above, a few people seem to be passing themselves off as legal experts in these discussions, and when it comes to law and medicine, I really think people should say whether they're a lawyer or a doctor before giving any kind of opinion, so others will know how much weight to give it. As I've said, I'm no lawyer, so take my comments in that light.

I was never passing myself off as a legal expert, and I stated that multiple times. All I said was that I know for certain (and I don't need to be a legal expert to know this) that MLB has a right to protect its trademarks.

Originally Posted by injury log

A lot of people have said that - not you, but others. Just a couple of posts above, someone said they think MLB are 'greedy idiots' for taking this action, for example. I can only assume that poster thinks MLB wants money, or why else use the word 'greedy'.

I haven't seen anyone say anything about MLB making money off OOTP other than the "greedy idiots" post and you being upset that people are saying that. This thread has gotten long enough and far enough off topic that maybe I'm forgetting other posts saying that. If it happened in other threads, I can't say I've read every thread that this topic has been discussed in.

But like I said earlier, my original goal was to get a different poster to understand that MLB has a right to protect its trademarked properties. So far, I have seen no proof that MLB does not have that right.

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by baseballfan83

The fact that OOTP was forced to remove the names so promptly speaks volumes about the MLB.

In the very least, it means that the developers of OOTP were unable to agree with the MLB upon fair terms for the use of the license. The implications of that are fairly damning.

• They wanted enough in royalties to effectively make development of the game a non-profitable venture.
• They didn't entertain the idea of OOTP obtaining a license, and didn't even extend the opportunity to the OOTP team.
• OOTP simply didn't have enough time to review the terms of licensing with legal council.

The third bullet is the best case scenario because it means there is hope for the future that an agreement can be reached. The fact that they were forced to remove the names in the mean time, though, makes me less hopeful.

I realize Markus' comments about obtaining a license are in a thread that was locked days ago, therefore it's not prominent anymore, but you need to read the first post here. Specifically, the fourth paragraph.

[baseballfan83]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

I realize Markus' comments about obtaining a license are in a thread that was locked days ago, therefore it's not prominent anymore, but you need to read the first post here. Specifically, the fourth paragraph.

Thanks for the link. Here's to hoping that the MLB doesn't demand outrageous terms.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by endgame

I'll save my editorializing about how rampant these kinds of discussions get with no real merit.

Let me instead offer you a possibility that may prove useful. Seriously. Hit the randomize team names button a few times when creating a game and see what happens. Thanks. (Utilizing the latest patch, of course.)

Color me cautious, but if this is what I think it is (I have not tried it yet), it may not be a smart thing to have done.

[DCG12]

Originally Posted by baseballfan83

They are greedy because they fail to realize what a great marketing opportunity OOTP is to their dying brand. It is no secret that the MLB is a dying sport. The context of "America's past time" is quickly taking on a different meaning. Sure, the sport still has a strong following, but young people have become disillusioned with the sport. Eventually, fans will die off, and if they aren't replacing those fans with new ones, the demand will burn out.

Look, I understand that they don't want just anyone capitalizing on their trademark(s) without paying royalties.

That doesn't mean they can't extend a license to OOTP that isn't greedy. The MLB reserves the right to license their trademark however they choose. So long as they continue to enforce the right to their trademark, it doesn't matter what terms they extend on an individual basis.

The fact that OOTP was forced to remove the names so promptly speaks volumes about the MLB.

In the very least, it means that the developers of OOTP were unable to agree with the MLB upon fair terms for the use of the license. The implications of that are fairly damning.

• They wanted enough in royalties to effectively make development of the game a non-profitable venture.
• They didn't entertain the idea of OOTP obtaining a license, and didn't even extend the opportunity to the OOTP team.
• OOTP simply didn't have enough time to review the terms of licensing with legal council.

The third bullet is the best case scenario because it means there is hope for the future that an agreement can be reached. The fact that they were forced to remove the names in the mean time, though, makes me less hopeful.

MLB is basically getting marketing that they didn't even have to pay for. They didn't have to invest anything into the development of this product. I'm all for them protecting their trademarks, but they don't need to bankrupt OOTP in the process.

This game has been out for 15 years, and they are just now coming after them. Why? I bet it has something to do with the game landing on Steam. I don't think it's a coincidence. The game is gaining popularity. The MLB wants a piece of that pie.

Ok I have stayed out of all this nonsense until now. Markus discussed the MLB issue in greater detail with the beta team a couple weeks ago and asked us to maintain confidentiality which most have done. I wish he had shared in more detail with the general forum but it is his choice not to at this time for whatever reason.

With that said, the bolded parts of the post are pure crap. MLB has been aware of OOTP for at least 2 years ever since they made Markus take logo's out of iOOTP. The fact that Markus doesn't have a license yet has more to do with the glacial pace of MLB then the fact that Markus isn't trying or isn't happy with terms.

All the doom and gloom is at polar opposites with how Markus presented it to the beta team. MLB doesn't want to bankrupt OOTP unless OOTP blatantly thumbs its nose at them.

One last thing that people forget in all their legal advising is that OOTP is a German company where trademark law is different and complicates matters somewhat.


Ok I've said all I can without Markus hunting me down and clubbing me with a beer stein but I really wish people would back off all the wild-eyed speculation.