Promotion/Relegation

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by deanemj

That's exactly what I don't want to have to deal with, though. I want it to be automatic so I don't have to deal with the frustration of it every season. It's a nightmare trying to do it manually.

How is it a nightmare? You can re-align the league in minutes under League Structure.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by deanemj

That's exactly what I don't want to have to deal with, though. I want it to be automatic so I don't have to deal with the frustration of it every season. It's a nightmare trying to do it manually.

It takes less than five minutes to do. You have very silly ideas about what constitutes a "nightmare."

[kq76]

If you don't do things in the exact right order and in the exact right time of year, it might not be a nightmare, but it can definitely be a serious PITA, backups or not. So I, too, would very much would like to see it automated.

I'm also of the opinion that I'll take what Markus is willing to give us now and beg for the rest later though.

When it comes to promotion/relegation most probably feel the priorities should be:

1) program in "try everything not to get relegated" or "just give up"

2) automate the whole process

But personally I can just create a story in my head for whatever happens so I'd be even happier if the process just got automated.

[The Wolf]

Do you remember what Markus said about having to rewrite the financial system if it was to be automated?

Small demand, easy workaround. If he puts the Win Now p/r switch into 15 then you guys are well covered.

I did it once. It really is only five minutes work.

[deanemj]

Oy vey. Some of us like to leave our fantasy leagues simulating for 20 or 30 seasons before taking control of a team.

I really don't understand why you are so against having this super useful feature added.

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by deanemj

Oy vey. Some of us like to leave our fantasy leagues simulating for 20 or 30 seasons before taking control of a team.

I really don't understand why you are so against having this super useful feature added.

No one is "against" it - if Markus wanted to program in an automatic promotion/relegation feature, that'd be freaking awesome.

But what you don't seem to get is that it would require a fair amount of work for very minor results. It's something that is already possible to do manually with just a few clicks of the mouse, so Markus doesn't see the need to spend his time working on it. No one is saying that it's not a good idea, or that it wouldn't be useful. But what it boils down to is that it's already possible to do it in-game. What's always been missing from P/R leagues wasn't the ability to move teams around, but rather an AI tweak, which Markus said he might work on. That's absolutely fantastic news, and it means that P/R leagues will become viable to run.

So maybe in the future, someone will take the time to write the code for an automatic P/R league. But take what you can get right now - the fact that Markus is aware of the AI issue and is looking into it is brilliant news that anyone who plays or has wanted to play P/R (like me) should be celebrating. But you're not; you're trying to get the dev team to spend countless hours on a feature that already exists in-game, just so that you don't have to spend an extra half hour or so when you set up your league. All new features are a matter of effort vs. payoff, and in this case, the effort would be much higher.

[Poweshow]

I've asked for this feature on a near-yearly basis for the greater part of a decade for the reason being a new way to play the game and for the fact that fictional league players are rarely ever though of in the design of yearly iterations of OOTP. I believe there was a poll a while ago asking users what type of league they participated in primarily - MLB/Historical/Fictional - and I believe the answer was 1/4 fictional, at the least it was higher than historical (if memory serves me correct). If this was in fact how the poll played out it is apparent that the option for a P/R league would be used by more people than the yearly additions to historical leagues. Regardless I'm asking for an entertainingly new way to play OOTP for a portion of the userbase that has -in my humblest of opines- been largely neglected over the years.

I have asked for P/R leagues and have been directed - not unlike this thread - that they are possible and to search the board for how exactly but there is really no definitive answer on how best to:

- Make teams realize the need to not finish in the last 3 (or however many) positions
- How to differentiate the money available to teams in their respective leagues
- How to dictate free agency signings (ie: 5* player X would never sign with a Tier-3 team)

And I'm sure a ton of other things that I'm leaving out as I haven't attempted to do a P/R league in several months (as they are near impossible to make function properly as others have stated). If somebody can detail -in depth- how to make this league work with the proposed changes on page 1 I would be somewhat satisfied but I simply don't think the proposed changes would really simulate a P/R league on the scale that anybody that hopes for a P/R league truly wants. I would be absolutely elated if somebody proved me wrong an provided a blueprint on how to make it work.

Am I being a needy little girl by requesting the whole 9 yards of a P/R league? Absolutely. Have I and others that have been requesting it year after year after year been consistent with our hope for this addition though? Even more so, yes.

Really hope that we can see ANY progress towards a P/R league this year even if it's just the change to WIN NOW!/rebuilding code.

[mm7607]

Here is something I haven't seen touched on, how do you treat player stats in this type league? What about HOF numbers? Would you need separate HOF for each level? I would think each one would have ts own stats and hall.

I would like to try this with MLB expanding to 32 teams and separating into 4 separate levels. Would make a for an interesting new option.

[Ike348]

Originally Posted by mm7607

Here is something I haven't seen touched on, how do you treat player stats in this type league? What about HOF numbers? Would you need separate HOF for each level? I would think each one would have ts own stats and hall.



I would like to try this with MLB expanding to 32 teams and separating into 4 separate levels. Would make a for an interesting new option.

I think you have to have the same hall, but drop players' stats from the lower tiers 5-10% when taking into account that they had much easier competition.

[chucksabr]

Originally Posted by Poweshow

I have asked for P/R leagues and have been directed - not unlike this thread - that they are possible and to search the board for how exactly but there is really no definitive answer on how best to:

- Make teams realize the need to not finish in the last 3 (or however many) positions
- How to differentiate the money available to teams in their respective leagues
- How to dictate free agency signings (ie: 5* player X would never sign with a Tier-3 team)

I admit I hadn't thought much about the Win Now issue, since I am a lot newer to the game and have almost no actual game-playing experience compared to most of you. Once I got this game for the first time this past September, I went immediately into my P/R league idea. Maybe it's, play through 2/3 of your season, then manually switch the bottom third of each of your divisions to Win Now. As has been said already, it's a pain but it can be done. I just don't know how much the manual Win Now change will affect their offseasons, whether they will willfully run their balance sheets into ground, and what happens if they do?

On the middle point, though, I update the financials every season for each division, and the higher level gets twice the scouting money the lower level does, and the salaries and revenue streams are set lower than the higher level as well. I am only fourteen seasons into my dynasty and I still have two more major divisions to add, but it seems to be working out so far in that the greatest teams maintain their greatness, and the bubble teams bounce up and down between divisions a lot.

I don't have free agents yet--I am about sixty seasons, at minimum, away from that--but I presume that the money will be so well established by then that top tier free agents will gravitate toward the top tier teams, and that none of the best ones will land on the 17th place team in the Fourth Division. Maybe I'm wrong about that. We'll see.

[chucksabr]

As I have been thinking a little more about this, I am wondering whether changing relegation-endangered clubs to Win Now might backfire?

As I see it, the goal of changing relegation-endangered clubs to Win Now is to keep them from selling off their better players for prospects, as you might see in a closed cartel league like those in America, where relegation is not at all a consideration.

But by changing bad teams to Win Now, are you in danger of inviting the opposite problem: liquidating prospects for stars, just so your club can finish 13th out of 20 instead of 16th out of 20? Would a club really sacrifice its future in the same way a club who's on the bubble for winning a championship might?

Because all I would like to accomplish by switching bad teams to Win Now is to simply avoid them selling off their best players. In other words, I would think the goal is for such teams to basically stand pat and play their hardest to win with what they have, or at least when they trade for good players, they're trading other top flight-ready players instead of liquidating their top prospects like a top three team might.

Anyone have any thoughts on that?

[dward1]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

As I have been thinking a little more about this, I am wondering whether changing relegation-endangered clubs to Win Now might backfire?

As I see it, the goal of changing relegation-endangered clubs to Win Now is to keep them from selling off their better players for prospects, as you might see in a closed cartel league like those in America, where relegation is not at all a consideration.

But by changing bad teams to Win Now, are you in danger of inviting the opposite problem: liquidating prospects for stars, just so your club can finish 13th out of 20 instead of 16th out of 20? Would a club really sacrifice its future in the same way a club who's on the bubble for winning a championship might?

Because all I would like to accomplish by switching bad teams to Win Now is to simply avoid them selling off their best players. In other words, I would think the goal is for such teams to basically stand pat and play their hardest to win with what they have, or at least when they trade for good players, they're trading other top flight-ready players instead of liquidating their top prospects like a top three team might.

Anyone have any thoughts on that?

I think you are right, which is why even though a quick-fix like this would be nice, to really implement promotion and relegation teams have to "know" how much money they would lose by dropping down a division and how much there is to gain by climbing a division. They also have to "know" how much playing in certain divisions attracts certain players and that players will want to leave if they are relegated. this is why several people earlier said it would take a total re-code and I agree. right now I don't think there is any sort of differentiation prestige-wise between leagues which would have to be fixed as part of it. I understand why the creators are not putting p/r in as it would take a lot of work, but for me it is the #1 feature I would love to see. a properly working p/r system would mean certain leagues have greater prestige (not just money) which means independent leagues could be played more easily, and that team AI has been much improved where it can know to avoid relegation or gain promotion. I would probably spend $75 on an OOTP with a great p/r system but the only people you could be drawing into the product with a working p/r system are going to be Europeans who are interested in baseball and gaming but aren't tied to the North American system. I don't think that's a massive market compared with the American/Canadian market who should be focused on.

plus people like me who try to make as crazy and global fictional worlds we can are already close to heaven with OOTP. we aren't going anywhere, it's already a brilliant game we are just hoping to see this next piece take it to another level so we never have to turn the game off

[chucksabr]

FWIW, I'm a native Detroiter who is fascinated by the promotion/relegation idea in general, and the English football system in particular, and I would bet there are a lot of American players like me fascinated enough by the concept that they would love to see, and use, a p/r system built into the game to any workable degree.

Right now, my league is just winging it through, mainly using the money levers as a guide, and for my purposes it's working OK enough. But this Win Now issue is a good one, and I hope one worth addressing.

[dward1]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

FWIW, I'm a native Detroiter who is fascinated by the promotion/relegation idea in general, and the English football system in particular, and I would bet there are a lot of American players like me fascinated enough by the concept that they would love to see, and use, a p/r system built into the game to any workable degree.

Right now, my league is just winging it through, mainly using the money levers as a guide, and for my purposes it's working OK enough. But this Win Now issue is a good one, and I hope one worth addressing.

I'm an American who would love it also, but my point was there are very few Americans who would start to buy the game due to that new factor. with Americans being almost surely 90% of the base, it probably doesn't make sense for them to put in the work to do a well-done p/r system (which I don't think the win now option would be, I'd like to see it implemented but it would take it 5-10% of the way there IMO)

[chucksabr]

I might try a couple runs of playing a few dummy seasons using this specific Win Now strategy to see what the practical effect might be, before I commit to it. If my concerns are misplaced, then I may go all in on the strategy.

I would employ it on any team in or near the relegation zone of both divisions, as well as with the contending teams in the lower division. I don't really think I'd need to do anything for the contending teams in the top tier.

[dward1]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

I might try a couple runs of playing a few dummy seasons using this specific Win Now strategy to see what the practical effect might be, before I commit to it. If my concerns are misplaced, then I may go all in on the strategy.

I would employ it on any team in or near the relegation zone of both divisions, as well as with the contending teams in the lower division. I don't really think I'd need to do anything for the contending teams in the top tier.

let me know what it looks like. I wouldn't think you'd have to do it with the contending teams in the lower division either, they already are trying to win if they are close.

[chucksabr]

Originally Posted by dward1

let me know what it looks like. I wouldn't think you'd have to do it with the contending teams in the lower division either, they already are trying to win if they are close.

FWIW, and I don't know whether this means anything at this point, but I am at 31str December, 1901 right now, and only a single club in the entire league has a focus of Win Now: Glossop, who finished 1st in the Second Division and won a promotion for it.

Ten clubs are in rebuild mode. In the First Division, they are five clubs who finished 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th and 18th (the last two having been relegated). In the Second Division, they are five clubs who finished 11th, 14th, 15th, 16th and 17th. Clubs who finish toward the bottom of the lower level are in danger of getting voted out of the League entirely, although AI has no way of knowing that.

Curiously, outside of Glossop, none of the contending clubs in either division, nor any in the middle of the pack, are in Win Now. They are all in Neutral.

Now, Glossop did trade two youngsters to Man City, who finished 15th in D1, for a 2-3 win 2B after the season. It is a bit inexplicable that a #15 team would trade veterans for prospects with a #19 team (which is what first place in D2 is). Again, AI doesn't know any better, but that's what happened when a Win Now team made a postseason trade with a Rebuild team. On the other hand, Blackburn (#3 team) traded their 3.5 star 2-win 26 year old starting 3B to Fulham (#20 team) for two 1 star bench players, one of them 31 years old, and both teams are in Neutral mode. So, I don't know what to make of that.

[dward1]

that's such a small sample it's hard to make any conclusions. btw, love the dynasty you are running, excellent read. I also took your Cup idea and added it to my league, personally scheduled all the games as playoff games.

anyway, about p/r again we will have to use creativity to have it work in our saves this year again because free agents don't "recognize" which leagues are first and second tier and will simply sign for the most money, even if it's $50,000 more and it means you are playing your baseball in Birmingham in front of 4500 fans instead of in Yankee Stadium for the World Series. without some sort of prestige ranking of leagues, free agency and a p/r system in OOTP has to take place in the future and uses a lot of creativity to explain.

[chucksabr]

Thanks for the good word on my dynasty.

On the free agent issue, I hear you about the money being the prime consideration of players to sign, but I gotta think there's a fairly high correlation between the prestige and the money. If the money in one division is double that of the next division, which is again double that of the division below that, etc., the better free agents are going to flock to the higher divisions, where the higher prestige play and exposure is naturally going to be. I believe in most cases it will work out, although I agree there might be some goofiness on the margins.

[Poweshow]

I would be interested in knowing the estimate on how much time it would take the OOTP staff to implement a P/R league into the game. If it's somewhat reasonable I would definitely consider a kickstarter campaign to make it financially viable for them to attempt to implement this, that's how badly I want this feature in the game.