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Old 01-25-2014, 10:51 AM   #1
thbroman
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So What Will We Be Able to Do With the Historical League Generator?

The title says it all. I am crossing my fingers that historical leagues are being done up in a way that will allow us historical-fictional gamers to re-create the minor-league historical universe of different eras in the 20th century.
I fear for the worst, however - the lack of mention of financials for minor leagues is not a good sign.
Please Markus, help an long-time OOTP fan out & give me some hope!
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Old 01-25-2014, 03:10 PM   #2
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No offense intended in the least, but don't you think that idea is seriously niche?

I just can't see demand for it, compared to the ongoing demand for non-roster invitees to Spring Training and a built-in WBC.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 01-25-2014, 03:16 PM   #3
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A massive endeavor it would be, due to many factors - including affiliate changes from year to year, wildly varying levels of minors from one year to the next and from team to team, independent teams/leagues, etc.

There's a great discussion on this subject here - http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...r-leagues.html - including the challenges and some possible solutions. I'll shamelessly point out that I think the best solution is in the last post of the thread (yes, mine), which lays out that everything could be controlled by csv files. This would put the onus on Markus to only allow for the csv files to control the setup, structure, and changes of minors. He would not have to decide what's reasonably-close to authentic or actual; that would be up to modders, etc.

I'll admit that this doesn't address the "minors' financials' part of your request.
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Old 01-25-2014, 03:21 PM   #4
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There's some definite support for this, even from the beta team. But I'm afraid the practical issues involved in any implementation of historical minors mean that we won't likely see this anytime soon.

I suspect it would be a very, very difficult thing for Markus to code. Plus the fact is that someone would need to actually need to come up with a useable historical MiLB db to make the coding worth it. It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation right now with nothing seemingly likely to change anytime soon.
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Old 01-25-2014, 03:31 PM   #5
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No offense intended in the least, but don't you think that idea is seriously niche?

I just can't see demand for it, compared to the ongoing demand for non-roster invitees to Spring Training and a built-in WBC.
None taken!
I fear that it is a niche request, evidenced by the fact that Markus has done nothing to move in this direction. Still, I can point out that a number of the veteran players have wanted to see something like this for years.

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There's some definite support for this, even from the beta team. But I'm afraid the practical issues involved in any implementation of historical minors mean that we won't likely see this anytime soon.

I suspect it would be a very, very difficult thing for Markus to code. Plus the fact is that someone would need to actually need to come up with a useable historical MiLB db to make the coding worth it. It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation right now with nothing seemingly likely to change anytime soon.
I'm not surprised that a number of betas support this idea; like me, a number of them have been around a while.
But I have no idea whatsoever whether this would be hard or simple to do.

Look -- I understand why the implementation of 3D graphics seems to Markus to be a priority, given that the game's fan base has to move in a far younger direction than I am. But I do think that the failure to appreciate how rich the historical sensibilities of baseball fans are may actually end up hurting the game in the long run. We don't need as detailed a map of the minor-league world as my request seems to suggest - just the tools for producing a reasonable facsimile!
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Old 01-25-2014, 03:46 PM   #6
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I'm not surprised that a number of betas support this idea; like me, a number of them have been around a while.
But I have no idea whatsoever whether this would be hard or simple to do.

Look -- I understand why the implementation of 3D graphics seems to Markus to be a priority, given that the game's fan base has to move in a far younger direction than I am. But I do think that the failure to appreciate how rich the historical sensibilities of baseball fans are may actually end up hurting the game in the long run. We don't need as detailed a map of the minor-league world as my request seems to suggest - just the tools for producing a reasonable facsimile!
I'm totally with you on this. We've just got convince Markus somehow
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Old 01-25-2014, 04:10 PM   #7
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I suspect it would be a very, very difficult thing for Markus to code. Plus the fact is that someone would need to actually need to come up with a useable historical MiLB db to make the coding worth it. It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation right now with nothing seemingly likely to change anytime soon.
I'm not saying you are suggesting that a 'useable historical MiLB db' would be defined as one that includes all minor-league players for all years, for all teams. But I'd just point out that I'm guessing that nearly everyone who is wanting something along the lines of realistic historical minors wouldn't be expecting accurate MiLB rosters. So given that and given 1) that many (apparently including OP) are historical-fictional, 2) what Spritze is doing with his high-school db, and 3) in the thread that I link to above there appear(ed) to be at least three posters who would be willing to produce a useable historical MiLB structure (authentic, as opposed to completely accurate) file, I'm thinking that solving half of the chicken or the egg dilemma can be accomplished :-)

And as far as the coding in OOTP goes, much of it is already there. The expansion and city/name changes for historical majors are already controlled by csv files that can be edited. For example, a user can play in historical mode and - by tweaking certain csv's - can have Brooklyn never move to LA... The existing code would just have to be expanded upon. (Not suggesting this is a merely a day's work, but it may not be as difficult as one might think, depending upon the approach.)
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Old 01-25-2014, 05:48 PM   #8
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Sean Lehman or somebody made a Minor League one but have to pay for it and goes to like 1999 but doesn't include MLB.
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Old 01-25-2014, 05:54 PM   #9
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Sean Lehman or somebody made a Minor League one but have to pay for it and goes to like 1999 but doesn't include MLB.
link, please I'd love to check it out.
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Old 01-25-2014, 05:57 PM   #10
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I think a lot of folks don't have a proper appreciation of just how large and varied the history of the minor leagues is...


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link, please I'd love to check it out.
There was some 'database' of minor league players but it only included three stats categories for hitters and pitchers.

The place to go for a true minor league player statistical database is SABR. And even then it'll never be perfect as there is some missing data that is likely lost forever.

Last edited by Le Grande Orange; 01-25-2014 at 05:59 PM.
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Old 01-25-2014, 06:09 PM   #11
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I think a lot of folks don't have a proper appreciation of just how large and varied the history of the minor leagues is...
I am fully aware of how complicated it is -- thanks largely to many discussions with you!
That's why I called only for a "reasonable facsimile." Give us a plausible model to work with & then see what can be done with modding.
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Old 01-25-2014, 06:37 PM   #12
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The ability for OOTP to handle some semblance of MiLB historical structure - even if it's authentic rather than accurate (as defined by LGO in the thread I referenced above) - would be a great first step that would likely satisfy fictional-historical gamers (those who are interested in historical minors), and would give historical-historical gamers something to utilize & play with... Then player databases will come in time, to one degree or another. In fact we already have the Spritze HS db, which ads a ton of minor-league player-seasons.
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Old 01-25-2014, 07:26 PM   #13
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I think a lot of folks don't have a proper appreciation of just how large and varied the history of the minor leagues is...


There was some 'database' of minor league players but it only included three stats categories for hitters and pitchers.

The place to go for a true minor league player statistical database is SABR. And even then it'll never be perfect as there is some missing data that is likely lost forever.
LGO is right. Even I know that this would involve chasing chimeras.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 01-26-2014, 05:08 AM   #14
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I am fully aware of how complicated it is -- thanks largely to many discussions with you!
That's why I called only for a "reasonable facsimile." Give us a plausible model to work with & then see what can be done with modding.
Even "reasonable facsimile" can be tricky.

One thought I had was to simply take the currently existing minor leagues and extend them backwards, thus keeping the (mostly) one affiliate per minor league level, and keeping league consistency in the minors. But even this seemingly simple approach results in all kinds of questions of how to handle certain things: leagues changed classification levels, while some leagues lasted some or even most of the time back to 1901, other leagues went defunct, reformed, then went defunct again, etc. I never could arrive at answers that seemed best, especially given that OOTP's existing structure also imposed constraints.


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Even I know that this would involve chasing chimeras.
A player database isn't impossible. I haven't kept up with it recently, but SABR's project certainly had quite a few completed leagues, but of course many more remain to be done. It'll probably be quite a few before they're done. I do know the finished work shows up at Baseball-Reference.
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Old 01-26-2014, 10:06 AM   #15
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We can take this years League and to start with and go to Baseball Reference to find out the Names of the Minor Leagues from the 1990's and search Team history to find Minor League Team history like for Richmond Braves this is the years part of the Atlanta Braves.

Somebody created 2004 League all we have to do is added missing Minor Leaguers.
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Old 01-26-2014, 10:08 AM   #16
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Even "reasonable facsimile" can be tricky.

One thought I had was to simply take the currently existing minor leagues and extend them backwards, thus keeping the (mostly) one affiliate per minor league level, and keeping league consistency in the minors. But even this seemingly simple approach results in all kinds of questions of how to handle certain things: leagues changed classification levels, while some leagues lasted some or even most of the time back to 1901, other leagues went defunct, reformed, then went defunct again, etc. I never could arrive at answers that seemed best, especially given that OOTP's existing structure also imposed constraints.
Let's see what would be needed.
First, it isn't required that the structure of our fictional minor-league universe evolve in lock-step with what happened in history between 19xx-2000. That would be pretty cool, for sure, but surely that's asking for the sun AND the moon. Second, the game already allows for the existence of independent minor leagues, so what is actually needed to allow them to be sources of players in a historical-fictional world? The ability to obtain players from those leagues by a mechanism other than a draft, by direct purchase of player contracts. Let's just find a way to find and sign players that doesn't require use of the exiting modern mechanisms and that would be a decent start, wouldn't it?


It comes down to this: The thing I have always looked for is the possibility of sending scouts through the boonies in Montana and Alberta, or Georgia and Alabama, looking for that gem of a player playing in an obscure minor league somewhere. I've always liked the way that scouts in Football Manager grow more familiar with a given area the more time they spend there - I think the same principle could be applied to OOTP (without the 100% certainty of FM's scouting reports, however! )

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Old 01-26-2014, 04:37 PM   #17
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We can take this years League and to start with and go to Baseball Reference to find out the Names of the Minor Leagues from the 1990's and search Team history to find Minor League Team history like for Richmond Braves this is the years part of the Atlanta Braves.
Okay. Now try doing that for every MLB team for every year. Let us know how long it takes to do even one season.

You underestimate the complexity of the exercise. I know, because I've done plenty of my own research work on compiling data on the minors. (Relying only on online sources isn't enough, or even convenient. Printed reference sources are invaluable, especially since there is on occasion discrepancies in the data.)


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Let's see what would be needed.
First, it isn't required that the structure of our fictional minor-league universe evolve in lock-step with what happened in history between 19xx-2000.
Sure. But there are still issues even when trying to simplify things. Let me illustrate.

Let's consider just the highest level of the minors. The International League has been around since 1901, so that one is fine. The Pacific Coast League has been around since 1903, so that's pretty much it, right? Well, not so fast. There was also the American Association, which initially ran from 1902-62, then folded, then came back and ran from 1969-97 before folding again. OOTP can't handle as yet a league folding and then returning, so we're going to have to decide what to do about the AA.

If you're going for a historically authentic approach, it can be argued it's better to have the IL and AA rather than the IL and PCL. This is because the PCL acted more like an independent outfit, as it's relative geographic isolation on the west coast kept it more 'separate' from organized ball. In contrast, the AA and IL were definitively in MLB's operating area, they mirrored nicely the AL-NL structure, including a championship between the respective league champions (the Junior World Series, which ran for many years).

But if you go for the IL-AA combination, what do you do when the real-life league folds in 1963, and folds again after 1997? Just swap over PCL teams for the intervening years? That doesn't seem very satisfactory or authentic.

Another option is to have all three leagues. But then you have to run the AA for years it didn't exist (1963-68, 1998-present). So AA teams which in real life switched to the IL and PCL will have to stay in the original league, which is probably doable. The main issue is that a three Class AAA league setup will look strange to current users since there has only been two such leagues over the last 16 years. Plus you have to decide whether to make the AA and IL as subleagues within a league so you can recreate the Junior World Series.

So, as you can see even a supposedly simplified scenario raises a number of questions.

Now, of course, if OOTP gets changed to allow leagues to fold and return, this helps greatly in addressing these questions. But we don't know when, or even if, that will be done.


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Second, the game already allows for the existence of independent minor leagues, so what is actually needed to allow them to be sources of players in a historical-fictional world?
Yes, but not all that well. To do current-day independent minors well likely requires a good overhaul of the financial system (which would benefit many other areas) but that doesn't seem in the cards any time soon. Also, I would maintain the way the game makes players available would need to change: at present each league has its own draft pool; to simulate the wider world more accurately a single draft pool from which all leagues draw is how it should work. Players are then drafted and/or signed out of that common pool.

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The ability to obtain players from those leagues by a mechanism other than a draft, by direct purchase of player contracts. Let's just find a way to find and sign players that doesn't require use of the exiting modern mechanisms and that would be a decent start, wouldn't it?
Sure, but it needs to be thought out carefully, and ideally as part of a larger picture, a more comprehensive idea of where such changes ultimately lead.
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Old 01-26-2014, 09:41 PM   #18
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I still contend that "all" the developers need to do is allow for minor league structures and evolution to be controlled by a csv file - as described here: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ml#post3395230... (that, and possibly allow for more-levels/classifications of minors.) ... And as noted above, much of this OOTP code already exists, for historical majors.

Then the modders will take over and provide all kinds of files, from simple, three-level (AAA, AA, and A) historically plausible structures to complex ones that are historically authentic, if not completely accurate.

Applying this to the majors, too, would be a big step towards solving the issues with 19th-century historical, and with the Federal League.
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Old 01-26-2014, 11:26 PM   #19
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I know but for years that game came out can just Import saved game or QuickStart from that year but Historical Import Players and pitchers might not work that's what I mean.
Aldo game doesn't have Minor League E. yet.
Another problem is at Draft not all people from that year is available to be Drafted.
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Old 01-27-2014, 01:29 AM   #20
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I still contend that "all" the developers need to do is allow for minor league structures and evolution to be controlled by a csv file - as described here: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ml#post3395230... (that, and possibly allow for more-levels/classifications of minors.) ... And as noted above, much of this OOTP code already exists, for historical majors.

Then the modders will take over and provide all kinds of files, from simple, three-level (AAA, AA, and A) historically plausible structures to complex ones that are historically authentic, if not completely accurate.

Applying this to the majors, too, would be a big step towards solving the issues with 19th-century historical, and with the Federal League.
Agreed!
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