OOTP 11 vs. DMB, et al

[Elvis]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

OOTP 11 will have great replay output. In fact, I think it will be even superior to games like DMB.

Link to above >> http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ml#post2903981

Any thoughts? Are we there yet?? Not quite seeing it myself, but a little better each version. Don't know if OOTP will ever be superior to games like DMB in its replay output...it's just not that kind of game.

Anyhow, thought I'd give some replays a shot again this year, but it's back to fictional for me.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Is anyone doing a year-by-year historical replay with development off? If so, what kind of results are they getting? Personally, that kind of gaming isn't my cup of tea, but this version definitely seems better than in the past.

[pstrickert]

Originally Posted by Elvis

Link to above >> http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ml#post2903981

Any thoughts? Are we there yet?? Not quite seeing it myself, but a little better each version. Don't know if OOTP will ever be superior to games like DMB in its replay output...it's just not that kind of game.

Anyhow, thought I'd give some replays a shot again this year, but it's back to fictional for me.

If you could elaborate, it would help. Have you tried a replay with OOTP11? If so, what happened? Did it meet your expectations? If not, why not? If you think DMB is better, how so? "It's just not that kind of game" means what exactly?

[never_ends]

yep. I have tried different settings in 11, have found some good ones for what I want which is accurate overall career stats.

Basically I'm interested in the 1950 to 1975 time frame. Import history up to 1950, who knows what will happen when (if) I ever reach 1975. Will play out 1960 to 1975 so I want accurate historical stats, I am not interested in contracts, free agency, trades that didn't happen, other goofy stuff, etc. etc.

The biggest issue is doing day to day transactions from 1950 to 1975, time consuming but necessary for accuracy. (Retrosheet is used for this). It is important to do these for several reasons including but not limited to it affects how a team finishes in the standings. By doing the transactions the teams for the most part finish close to what they did in R/L won-lost wise... however, in years where 3-4 teams finished within 1 to 6 games of each other there might well be a shuffle in the finish order as opposed to the R/L standings which is perfectly reasonable and fine with me. There are teams that perform better/worse than R/L but in my tests I haven't found many overall considering how many test sims I've done.

As for the overall league stats they are fairly close in the test sims I've done. Almost always in the green... usually 1% to 4% up or down although every 3-4 years it seems some particular overall category goes out of whack perhaps 10% but that is the exception as opposed to the rule in the sims I've done so far. Player to player stats vary a bit for sure but I'm looking for overall accuracy and not single season exact duplicate stats (would be very boring I'm afraid).

Can't say about DB, never played it.

Did play Strat-O-Matic starting in 1962 and on and off until the 1990's and I would say OOTP 11 is close to the overall accuracy numbers wise... but OOTP has many more options/variables that can change things up a bit... just my opinion of course.

So, yeah... BUY OOTP 11, figure out what you expect to get out of it, find the right settings for what you want and you'll be plenty happy.

and yes... Player Development is turned off in my sims.

[skunkle333]

Let me just say that for several years I've been a DMB addict. Each year I get OOTP but only play it for a month or two without being obsessed with it.

V9 and V10 really were interesting. The play by play (very important to me) was very good and I really liked the ball flight...pics...sounds etc. But I never stayed with the game long enough to figure all the depth and wrinkles out. I saw some AI stuff that bothered me and would always go back to DMB. I used Action PC baseball for my game when I wanted all the perks of pics and sounds.

Now...I by no means have given up DMB. Love that game...it's simplicity and accuracy and great depth and the script mostly makes up for the lack of player pics and sound and a little pizzazz for the game.

This year is very different. Haven't placed a full post at DMB yet but I did put in a small one in one of their forums. As part of a gift I got a new Win 7 PC with 4 gig of ram and a beautiful used 22" monitor.

AND OOTP looks incredible and plays fantastic! After having the new system just about a month ago I decided to install my old OOTP V10 game. It blew me away. Especially when I rediscovered the widget screen with all the data...had room for the larger print for my old eyes on the script and saw the MLB pitch by pitch location color box. Man it looks nice and totally immerses you in the game with all the senses. And then I was reminded just how good the script really is. I'd still rate DMB's script as 11 on a scale of 1-10 but I'd easily give OOTP's script a 9-9 1/2. It is good.

I'm still bogged down figuring out all the setup stuff for historical 59 replay and I'm trying to work on a special league with WSox World Series teams and playoff teams. I'll be starting up 2005 when I can.

I've printed out at least 1/3 of the manual and I know that OOTP will be with me for the rest of my baseball gaming. Haven't played enough to comment on the stat replay accuracy. I've discovered some ratings and speed differences from DMB. I plan in time to do a comparison of WSeries teams that I want to replay with DMB ratings and then I'll make adjustments if I can figure out how to do that and how much to adjust.

It's a long long term project but I know that 'this time' OOTP will 'not' go on the shelf. It's already made a sizeable dent in my DMB playing time. It is just way too 'immersive' with the feel of baseball to not play.

I used to play Action PC baseball for my periodic desire for a stat baseball game that had pitch by pitch (the only way to play baseball...for me) because it has pics and sounds etc. Action is a good game and pretty accurate but I think it has been replaced by OOTP for my desire for baseball gaming that has all the perks.

I even plan down the road to include some dear loved ones that have gone to be with the Lord as personnel etc. Baseball is a story. Each game tells it's own story...each inning...each confrontation of batter/pitcher. And what OOTP does is enhance that story and bring in tons more of flavor and style. Even the player injuries are labeled as real injuries and last week I had Swisher of the Yankees injured in a fun game I played with my 6 year old grandson.

I checked his injury because I wanted him to play in the game and lo and behold it was a 'day to day' injury. I told my grandson...now how cool and realistic is that! Love it.

I've talked way too long but I guess this shows my enthusiasm for this game. I've bought every version I think. Stopped playing each one a month or two later. Not going to happen anymore. OOTP is here to stay. Even the research is fun...although at times trying to figure things out with my 65 year old brain does get pretty frustrating. But the fellas here at the forum have been terrific in helping me out.

And I owe a good deal of my continuing efforts to get the game each year to PStrickert. Got to know him with the game with v9 and he has been a real help and encouragement.

I'll write more later on as to stat accuracy etc but I gotta run because I'm going to do a few exhibition games with my 59 White Sox and those tough 59 Dodgers! Please don't let my DMB friends know of this enthusiasm. I'll tell them when it's time.

[actionjackson]

I knew skunkle would be in here sooner or later. I'm not sure I ever posted over at DMB, but I did lurk (is that like staying at a Holiday Inn Express?) and played the game a bit. Skunkle was all over those boards. If you want a comparison between DMB and OOTP, skunkle is your man.

[TribeFanInNC]

Well, the primary difference is with the transactions. And with different transactions, you will sometimes get different career stats for players. OOTP works from rates for players, not raw data (i.e. HR/9 not total HR). The rates and the league season totals will ususally match pretty well. But if a guy gets 200 more ABs in a season because of injury settings or a trade or whatever, then he'll have more hits, HRs, etc...

OOTP is a fine historical game, but one has to have different expectations. DMB gives you what it gives you; OOTP gives you what you tell it to give you.

[Elvis]

Skunkle - Great post and I really appreciate your insight...looking forward to hearing about your 1959 replay. And thanks to everyone else for weighing in. Based on the responses, I'll definitely have to give version 11 another spin from the historical side.

Never played DMB myself, but am a big Action fan. Like TribeFan says, it's all about different expectations with the different games. For me, both games have something to offer to suit my needs...but perhaps OOTP will become my choice for single-season replays one day soon!

Thank you again, everyone...thank you very much.

Elvis

[Rough Rider]

Originally Posted by skunkle333

Please don't let my DMB friends know of this enthusiasm. I'll tell them when it's time.

I guess your recent post over on the DMB forum means "it's time"?

This is pearceg from the DMB and Delphi fora. Let's just say your recent post over on DMB's board as well as this one have me looking at OOTP with a very critical eye toward laying down some cash since DMB IS REFUSING TO TAKE ORDERS AT THIS TIME and Lord only knows when/if Dayne will ever be "ready" to take my hard-earned money.

I'm also pretty much exclusively a solo stock season replayer. I'll be poking around the forum to see how OOTP stacks up to DMB in this regard. Would also appreciate any comments here as a central location. How's OOTP in terms of stock season replaying? Real-life lineups/transactions/roster management? Realistic in-game computer managing? How does it handle zero-HR hitters in replays?

Thanks!

[pstrickert]

During beta testing, Markus said he was considering real-life lineups and transactions for OOTP12. If there's a loud outcry for them, I'll bet he follows through.

[Rough Rider]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

During beta testing, Markus said he was considering real-life lineups and transactions for OOTP12. If there's a loud outcry for them, I'll bet he follows through.

That would be good. I did a lot of work parsing Retrosheet game logs and subsequently loading real-life lineups into DMB seasons that weren't sold with them. From what I've read so far about the rest of OOTP, importing real-life lineups would likely be a whole lot easier than what DMB required.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by never_ends

The biggest issue is doing day to day transactions from 1950 to 1975, time consuming but necessary for accuracy. (Retrosheet is used for this).

Note that won't include some important transactions: promotions from and demotions to the minors.

[skunkle333]

Elvis...

Not sure I have much insight at all but I know that I'm enjoying OOTP V11. Don't know when I'll get around to a full 59 replay. I'm having too much fun replaying the 59 World Series with Paul Strickert's fantastic 59 World Series Quickstart. It's a blast. I'll probably end up replaying the WSeries about 5 or more times. Sure wish OOTP had a 'save game in progress' tab. I'd get more games in (pitch by pitch 90%) if there was a save game option.

I'm also in the process of creating my own league with a variety of WSox famous teams and playoff and WSeries matches that I like.

Thanks for your kind words. If your experience with OOTP is minimal then you will have to be very patient in working with all the details etc but for me it has been more than worth it. When I get bogged down trying to figure something out I just stop and play a great exhibition game.

Rough Rider...

I'm not sure I presented my post at DMB well and somewhat wish I had waited awhile longer. But Gibby's post got me going. I still love DMB and appreciate it's great accuracy and JWood's superb play by play. But OOTP's pbp is rock solid in many ways and it seems to be pretty accurate as far as I can tell in the early going without actually replaying a regular season.

The lack of transactions and season lineups leaves a real void with OOTP but a fella could probably do an acceptable job of at least keeping the rosters fairly close throughout the season while trusting the AI to do a decent job setting the lineups etc. Still need to study that down the road. I glance through the historical threads everyday for work others are doing in that area.

Full season replays were pretty much my cup of tea until a few years back when time became a problem and I switched mostly to playoff/WSeries replays. Over 50 years of baseball stat gaming since my early dice games. Where did all those innings go?

[OBSL Commish]

Hi all,

Longtime DMB user, first time OOTP user. My best friend and I have run a DMB-based sim called the OBSL for the last eight years. We tried out OOTP and Action PC Baseball along with DMB back in 2003 when we were deciding on what sim to use, which would be easiest to utilize, etc. At that time, we found too many statistical quirks within OOTP and Action PC that would hinder our usage. So, we went with DMB and it was satisfying -- to a point. We have full minor league systems for each team, with real-life stats and players, real MLB contracts, just fantasy major league rosters starting with a fantasy draft, all of this done on Excel worksheets for the last eight years. And most of that work was done by me, so this league has been a full-time hobby, which I loved. The only aspect I didn't like about our league was that it was nearly impossible to figure out a true free agency system without it seeming arbitrary or lopsided to teams with bigger markets. We just used a salary cap and went from there.
Now, fast forward to 2010, and I came across this forum about a month ago. I started reading some posts and decided to give OOTP a try once again. I bought OOTPXI and I have loved playing it! I play it every single night, before and after simming my DMB league. I was doing a historical career-based sim on DMB for the last year. I just started transferring it over to OOTP and it has taken me literally a tenth of the time to get it started on OOTP! I have encouraged the other members of my league to buy this game because of all its features (we can have a true free agency period now!!!), and everyone who has gotten it has loved it so far! I am in the process of transferring over my sim league to OOTP now and hope to have that done in a month.
Thanks to everyone who made this game possible! And thanks to all of you who create the mods and photopacks and historical rosters! You guys are doing the Lord's work and you've shown me the errors of my ways!

Stacy

[skunkle333]

Mercy...how time does go by. My last post here was in April.

Sadly not too many weeks after that post my enthusiasm for OOTP11 dropped drastically.

I started having problems updating rosters and my real life schedule changed so I couldn't get games in because there is no 'save game in progress' ability. I play real baseball style...pitch by pitch...unless there is a big blowout. Anything else for me isn't baseball but just some readers digest shorthand play by play report. Provides no enjoyment for me reading just the final result of a play without the batter/pitcher confrontation tension.

Then in the midst of all of this it just became more of a regret that the historical players I was playing did not have their historical years real life stats showing on the main game screen. I realized that really took a lot of fun away from the game for me. Instead you have to click on the player and go to his regular stat screen to get that data.

In the midst of this the new version of DMB came out and I already knew the pitch by pitch in DMB was even better than ever so despite lack of sound and player pics and the widget stuff in OOTP DMB became dominant again. Love that game. Their script is so good that most of the time you don't miss the player pics.

Of course I still play OOTP11 once in awhile and the new pbp that came sometime back really enhanced the script. OOTP's script is very good. Just a couple of notchs behind DMB IMO.

I still work on single random games from time to time and replay the 59 World Series that PStrickert setup but it works out to only about 1 OOTP game every 7-10 days. I never saw it coming in the midst of all of my zeal for the game.

The BIG stoppers for me being 'no game in progress' save feature and no actual real-life stats on the main game screen. Disappointed but hope those features are in OOTP12.

My limited experience makes me feel the accuracy part is ok.

[Cornelius McGillicuddy]

I agree about the save game. Been asking for it for a couple of years. Markus replied one time that because of the way the OOTP code is setup that wouldn't be possible.

I'll have to try that '59 world series setup. I'm your age, 65 in December, but from LA. And I'm looking forward to trouncing those White Sox in OOTP the way it was done origionally lol.

[skunkle333]

Originally Posted by rich12545

I agree about the save game. Been asking for it for a couple of years. Markus replied one time that because of the way the OOTP code is setup that wouldn't be possible.

I'll have to try that '59 world series setup. I'm your age, 65 in December, but from LA. And I'm looking forward to trouncing those White Sox in OOTP the way it was done origionally lol.

Sure sorry to hear that. I most likely will not try v12 next year no matter what it has if it doesn't have the save game and historical year stats on the main game screen. But the game is a good one.

Hmmm. But it wasn't a trouncing. Unless you consider game 1. : )
PStrickerts setup is almost perfect. As I recall there might be one Dodger player that is not on their roster but he might have fixed that. It's rock solid and a blast to play with the player pics and sounds and script. It does have one major problem though...I have yet to win the series with my WSox. Gonna have to make some ratings changes. : )

Hopefully your 65 doesn't come with some of my health issues. Memory trouble being one of them.

[Cornelius McGillicuddy]

We won't talk about game 1. But of course it wasn't a trouncing, that's why I inserted the "lol" after making my statement. The number of runs scored by each team were about even. At least it didn't go seven. Anyhow, padresfan's site is down but I'll get the file when it goes back up.

Different people look for different things in a game. The lack of a save is a real annoyance but not a game breaker for me. With DM, paying for every year is.

Haven't had memory trouble, not yet anyway. Had a double hip operation a few years ago. Some blood clots right after. Then another operation. Having problems with an eye and will go in for an operation next month. I guess stuff happens when you get old but it beats the alternative all to heck.

[skunkle333]

Rich...

Mercy. And I thought I had troubles. I assume you are doing better.

I pray your eye problem will work out smoothly.

No save game feature is pretty much a game breaker for me. A couple of years ago I got addicted to pitch by pitch play with DMB. Of course, OOTPv11 does a great job with pitch by pitch. It's the only way I play now. Play by play is totally boring and not baseball for me anymore.

However...with old age comes unemployment troubles. I retired early with health a couple of years ago but my wife was laid off a few months ago so I'm looking for part time work again. And...reluctantly I'm getting ready to try to sell several of my DMB seasons because of the family budget. : )

So...who knows...I may just be forced to go back to OOTP more often since I can get any season at no further cost. Maybe I can just leave the game on and leave the pc on till I get to finish the game later. : )

Take care...

[StyxNCa]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Note that won't include some important transactions: promotions from and demotions to the minors.

I forgot where I found it but I had a file that shows players joining and leaving the rosters throughout the season all the way back to 1901. I worked on the 3 seasons (1901, 1969, 1970) I have for Action and e-mailed the seasons with updated transactions to Dave.

I need to figure out where I found it because when I crashed my computer last week I had to use the recovery disc to reinstall windows so everything I had was lost.