Game changing modifiers when it shouldn't

BPS · 07-09-2008, 01:24 AM

Certain modifiers set in creating a game are changed when the game is created when they should not be. (1871 game. Strategies and equilivalences in initial game setup. 8 ml teams with full minor leagues and col and hs feeders.)

To increase BAs in minor leagues I set hits modifier to 1.25 for AA, A, and SA. When I create the game, however, the game changes these modifiers to 1.02.

But the box for "Automatically adjust league total modifiers after each season for hist accuracy" IS unchecked.

Same thing when I change the number of hits total: when I create the game these numbers revert to their default levels.

I can manually change these modifiers back to what I want (after the game is created) but this shouldn't have to be done.

Tony M · 07-09-2008, 07:19 AM

I'm going to move this thread to Historicals as I think they'll know more about this.

I think I've seen this before and Garlon or Spritze gave me the explanation for it.

Spritze · 07-09-2008, 02:53 PM

"To increase BAs in minor leagues I set hits modifier to 1.25 for AA, A, and SA. When I create the game, however, the game changes these modifiers to 1.02."

These modifiers are set after game creation as they do not exist before game creation. Therefore I am confused by this question. Please restate.

BPS · 07-09-2008, 03:19 PM

Game creation screen allows changes in stats and modifiers. Below is a copy during game creation. Note change in hits. What follows is what exists AFTER game creation. Hits changed back to defaults.

Spritze · 07-09-2008, 03:27 PM

OK, I see now. At this point your league has actually been created. You are trying to edit things that are in flux.

Just let it finish the game creation process (using whatever defaults it wants) and then make your edits on Jan 1st of your first year. It should keep your settings well after that point.

BPS · 07-09-2008, 04:07 PM

My point: if you can set the stat output when you create a game these numbers should carry over to when the game is actually created! I believe this is what is supposed to happen. But it is not. I call "bug."

Indeed, if you want to create a template that has certain stat results built into it, these numbers need to be carried over to the game when the game starts. But my experience (here with minor leagues) shows this does not happen.

Garlon · 07-09-2008, 08:50 PM

The stat output is not controlled by setting the totals in the engine. The stat output is controlled by the actual modifiers.

You should have the automatically calculate modifiers box CHECKED as the game will automatically calculate the proper modifiers values for you while the engine totals remain a constant.

When you leave it unchecked the game will import the new engine totals each season because it assumes you are using 1-yr recalc mode I believe.

BPS · 07-09-2008, 09:47 PM

From the game manual in the second about game creation:

...league totals and modifiers are used to directly change the statistical output of a league. This information is most commonly used by historical players who want overall statistical results to match a specific target.

Most players of OOTP should never need to adjust these numbers. By default, OOTP generates realistic statistics in every era. [NOTE: but this does not seem to be true for minor leagues]. However, if you wish to directly affect the statistical output of your leagues, read on for more information.

Continuing...

OOTP generates a 'proposed' league total for each category. The overall performance of players over the course of a season will ultimately produce approximately that number. For example, if the league total for home runs is 5400, then the total home run output each season will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 5400.

To modify this, change the number from 5400 to some other number. [italics added] ...

To make this more intuitive, the right column contains a modifier column, similar to the other modifiers we have seen, with a default setting of 1.000-you guessed it, equivalent to modern professional baseball level. These modifiers are a more intuitive way of modifying the league totals. For example, if you want 10% more home runs, you could leave the league total at 5400, and just change the home runs modifier to 1.100.

Pronkytonk · 07-17-2008, 07:00 AM

A -maybe stupid- question : What happens if I change the number of scheduled games in the preseason ? The game has worked on the modifiers somewhen between the last and the new season and gives proposals for the total number of Hits, HRs etc. If I change the number of games (in my semi-fictional 19th century league, I double the number from 28 to 56 games after the 1871 season), will the proposed totals also be changed ? I have not recognized any change for the numbers displayed in the league setup and noticed several times that the league totals are well below the previous season - last time I simmed it the HR and 3B leaders had a lower total over 56 games than the 1871 leader over 28 games). So my question is if I have to change these totals/modifiers manually after changing the schedule or if the described effect is just coincidental.

Garlon · 07-17-2008, 11:23 AM

pronkytonk - All of the modifiers are based on ratios. Batting average for example is a ratio. A .275 average is no different over 56 games as it is over 28, or 162 for that matter. As long as you have auto-update league totals modifers enabled you will be ok regardless of the schedule length or # of teams in the league.

Pronkytonk · 07-17-2008, 03:13 PM

I know that the Average is the same whether there are 28 or 56 games, but the number of HRs hit will most likely be different. Because of some enormous dropdowns in offensive production I witnessed when increasing the game number I thought that this could have something to do with the program automatically changing modifiers at some time after a season is completed, but before I do change the schedule at the beginning of the new season so that the offensive numbers may be incorrect unless I make some changes to the modifiers after changing the schedule.

Garlon · 07-17-2008, 03:16 PM

Everything is based on some ratio. HRs are tracked as HR per AB. The modifiers calculate everything in the appropriate way.

Greatgrampa · 07-17-2008, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garlon

The stat output is not controlled by setting the totals in the engine. The stat output is controlled by the actual modifiers.

You should have the automatically calculate modifiers box CHECKED as the game will automatically calculate the proper modifiers values for you while the engine totals remain a constant.

When you leave it unchecked the game will import the new engine totals each season because it assumes you are using 1-yr recalc mode I believe.

Just a dumb question about what you say here. If that is true about the total in the engine having nothing to do with actually stats, then why have them there. And from what the manual says, they should factor into the game. Or is the manual wrong? I know you have done a lot of studying with numbers in the game, as you have put out a db based on your findings but why then does the manual say what it says. And furthermore, why have the check marks in prior to the creation of the game if they are just ignored once the game is started?
I am not saying you are wrong. I just would like to know the facts is all. I would hope that the changes that I make to any of those settings would stay as I set them so that I don't have to do it again and again. That wouldn't make any sense at all to me...

Would just like some more clarification on this, preferably someone who knows the answer because they either helped write the code or are the code writer themselves....That would clarify it for me. Not that I have any doubts about your integrity or that you haven't studied this in depth. I am sure you have, but I would rather hear it from the source to satisfy my curiosity. No offense at all meant by this statement.

Spritze · 07-17-2008, 06:14 PM

"preferably someone who knows the answer because they either helped write the code or are the code writer themselves...."

That would be Mr. Garlon who has already replied to you.

The process has changed a little bit since the manual was written. Mr. Garlons brain is more recent than the manual. Therefore please defer to Mr. Garlon. He set you straight. Ignore the totals in the engine.

And you can ignore the man behind the curtain as well. And Dorothy's little dog Toto too.

SittingDuck · 07-19-2008, 02:45 PM

But not that big old 'fro in yo' avatar.

Greatgrampa · 07-19-2008, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

"preferably someone who knows the answer because they either helped write the code or are the code writer themselves...."

That would be Mr. Garlon who has already replied to you.

The process has changed a little bit since the manual was written. Mr. Garlons brain is more recent than the manual. Therefore please defer to Mr. Garlon. He set you straight. Ignore the totals in the engine.

And you can ignore the man behind the curtain as well. And Dorothy's little dog Toto too.

You are the only one who has replied to me!!

Actually, right now I am using your DB!! I have no problems with that one, except I still haven't got a straight answer as to why the manual is different from the explanations given so far. If the manual is wrong then it should be changed. That is all I am saying. I never ignore Dorothy's little dog Toto. That dog is smarter than some people, and less rude.

Spritze · 07-19-2008, 09:38 PM

You are correct. The manual needs to be changed.

Greatgrampa · 07-20-2008, 03:57 PM

Thank you!

07-09-2008, 01:24 AM	#1
BPS All Star Reserve Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 711	Game changing modifiers when it shouldn't Certain modifiers set in creating a game are changed when the game is created when they should not be. (1871 game. Strategies and equilivalences in initial game setup. 8 ml teams with full minor leagues and col and hs feeders.) To increase BAs in minor leagues I set hits modifier to 1.25 for AA, A, and SA. When I create the game, however, the game changes these modifiers to 1.02. But the box for "Automatically adjust league total modifiers after each season for hist accuracy" IS unchecked. Same thing when I change the number of hits total: when I create the game these numbers revert to their default levels. I can manually change these modifiers back to what I want (after the game is created) but this shouldn't have to be done.

07-09-2008, 07:19 AM	#2
Tony M Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Here Posts: 6,156 Blog Entries: 3	I'm going to move this thread to Historicals as I think they'll know more about this. I think I've seen this before and Garlon or Spritze gave me the explanation for it. __________________ This signature is intentionally blank

07-09-2008, 03:19 PM	#4
BPS All Star Reserve Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 711	Game creation screen allows changes in stats and modifiers. Below is a copy during game creation. Note change in hits. What follows is what exists AFTER game creation. Hits changed back to defaults. Attached Images

07-09-2008, 09:47 PM	#8
BPS All Star Reserve Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 711	From the game manual in the second about game creation: ...league totals and modifiers are used to directly change the statistical output of a league. This information is most commonly used by historical players who want overall statistical results to match a specific target. Most players of OOTP should never need to adjust these numbers. By default, OOTP generates realistic statistics in every era. [NOTE: but this does not seem to be true for minor leagues]. However, if you wish to directly affect the statistical output of your leagues, read on for more information. Continuing... OOTP generates a 'proposed' league total for each category. The overall performance of players over the course of a season will ultimately produce approximately that number. For example, if the league total for home runs is 5400, then the total home run output each season will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 5400. To modify this, change the number from 5400 to some other number. [italics added] ... To make this more intuitive, the right column contains a modifier column, similar to the other modifiers we have seen, with a default setting of 1.000-you guessed it, equivalent to modern professional baseball level. These modifiers are a more intuitive way of modifying the league totals. For example, if you want 10% more home runs, you could leave the league total at 5400, and just change the home runs modifier to 1.100.

07-17-2008, 07:00 AM	#9
Pronkytonk Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Germany Posts: 168	A -maybe stupid- question : What happens if I change the number of scheduled games in the preseason ? The game has worked on the modifiers somewhen between the last and the new season and gives proposals for the total number of Hits, HRs etc. If I change the number of games (in my semi-fictional 19th century league, I double the number from 28 to 56 games after the 1871 season), will the proposed totals also be changed ? I have not recognized any change for the numbers displayed in the league setup and noticed several times that the league totals are well below the previous season - last time I simmed it the HR and 3B leaders had a lower total over 56 games than the 1871 leader over 28 games). So my question is if I have to change these totals/modifiers manually after changing the schedule or if the described effect is just coincidental. Last edited by Pronkytonk; 07-17-2008 at 07:01 AM.

07-09-2008, 02:53 PM	#3
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,254	"To increase BAs in minor leagues I set hits modifier to 1.25 for AA, A, and SA. When I create the game, however, the game changes these modifiers to 1.02." These modifiers are set after game creation as they do not exist before game creation. Therefore I am confused by this question. Please restate.

07-09-2008, 03:27 PM	#5
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,254	OK, I see now. At this point your league has actually been created. You are trying to edit things that are in flux. Just let it finish the game creation process (using whatever defaults it wants) and then make your edits on Jan 1st of your first year. It should keep your settings well after that point.

07-09-2008, 04:07 PM	#6
BPS All Star Reserve Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 711	My point: if you can set the stat output when you create a game these numbers should carry over to when the game is actually created! I believe this is what is supposed to happen. But it is not. I call "bug." Indeed, if you want to create a template that has certain stat results built into it, these numbers need to be carried over to the game when the game starts. But my experience (here with minor leagues) shows this does not happen.

07-09-2008, 08:50 PM	#7
Garlon Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 3,756	The stat output is not controlled by setting the totals in the engine. The stat output is controlled by the actual modifiers. You should have the automatically calculate modifiers box CHECKED as the game will automatically calculate the proper modifiers values for you while the engine totals remain a constant. When you leave it unchecked the game will import the new engine totals each season because it assumes you are using 1-yr recalc mode I believe.

07-17-2008, 11:23 AM	#10
Garlon Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 3,756	pronkytonk - All of the modifiers are based on ratios. Batting average for example is a ratio. A .275 average is no different over 56 games as it is over 28, or 162 for that matter. As long as you have auto-update league totals modifers enabled you will be ok regardless of the schedule length or # of teams in the league.

07-17-2008, 03:13 PM	#11
Pronkytonk Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Germany Posts: 168	I know that the Average is the same whether there are 28 or 56 games, but the number of HRs hit will most likely be different. Because of some enormous dropdowns in offensive production I witnessed when increasing the game number I thought that this could have something to do with the program automatically changing modifiers at some time after a season is completed, but before I do change the schedule at the beginning of the new season so that the offensive numbers may be incorrect unless I make some changes to the modifiers after changing the schedule.

07-17-2008, 03:16 PM	#12
Garlon Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 3,756	Everything is based on some ratio. HRs are tracked as HR per AB. The modifiers calculate everything in the appropriate way.

07-17-2008, 06:14 PM	#14
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,254	"preferably someone who knows the answer because they either helped write the code or are the code writer themselves...." That would be Mr. Garlon who has already replied to you. The process has changed a little bit since the manual was written. Mr. Garlons brain is more recent than the manual. Therefore please defer to Mr. Garlon. He set you straight. Ignore the totals in the engine. And you can ignore the man behind the curtain as well. And Dorothy's little dog Toto too. Last edited by Spritze; 07-17-2008 at 06:15 PM.

07-19-2008, 02:45 PM	#15
SittingDuck All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 1,834	But not that big old 'fro in yo' avatar.

07-19-2008, 09:38 PM	#17
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,254	You are correct. The manual needs to be changed.

07-20-2008, 03:57 PM	#18
Greatgrampa Major Leagues Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Bristol, VA Posts: 305	Thank you! __________________ "Hitting is timing. Pitching is upsetting timing." Warren Spahn