Thanks again Markus for the Reserve Clause Era rules.

[Biggio509]

I posted this in the general discussion but I just have say thanks again for simulating the reserve clause era. Wow.

[Le Grande Orange]

It's not a full recreation—e.g. there are no player hold-outs and player sales aren't delineated in the way they should be—but it's a step in the right direction.

[ashantewarrier]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

It's not a full recreation—e.g. there are no player hold-outs and player sales aren't delineated in the way they should be—but it's a step in the right direction.

Yes it is!

[risp2out]

Amen, brothers.

[Cras]

Just need to then keep the fire to the feet and hope it gets some continued attention for OOTP number 13. Would hate to think that what is in the game will be enough. Would love to see player hold outs, cash sales, and actually having to work out the contracts with the players each off season.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Cras

J...and actually having to work out the contracts with the players each off season.

That might get tedious when you have close to 40 players to deal with every off-season. But there are ways to streamline that.

[David Ball]

There's really nothing to work out. The entire purpose of having a reserve clause is precisely to avoid this kind of thing. You can't negotiate with other club's players because the rules forbid it, and your players can't negotiate with you because, ultimately, if they don't like what you're offering, what are they going to do, go back to the rolling mill?

If somebody is stubborn enough, occasionally you'll throw him a few extra percent to shut him up. If he's made a habit of this in the past, you might lowball him to start with so you can come up a few hundred dollars in order to let him feel he outbargained you while still staying within your budget. The whole process is good for some newspaper attention during the offseason, but it isn't real negotiating in any meaningful sense.

This is an exaggerated and simplified version of reality, of course, but so is OOTP. Looked at from a broad perspective, "salary negotiations" under a pure reserve clause regime require some diplomatic skill but are essentially a bureaucratic chore, like making sure the league dues get paid on time or ordering toilet paper. Therefore, I don't think they'd add anything to the game. I would love to see player sales, though, provided the AI could handle them well enough to be worth it.

[Cras]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

That might get tedious when you have close to 40 players to deal with every off-season. But there are ways to streamline that.

I can see it working like the draft. Click a button and offer slot, be it a 5% increase, or what ever the historically appropriate number be (and able to be changed if one wants to sim as a cheap owner). A few guys can say no, they demand more. Have to deal with them, and if you can't get a deal signed, they hold out, and they rot in the reserve roster. Or retire.

[Carlton]

Can Markus create a 'trigger event' when morale becomes too low?

We have the personality attributes, thus if Player A is not loyal, is greedy, has too much competition at his spot, he would sit out, making it a self engineered DFA for a season.

At that point you can let him rot until he retires, trade him where his morale goes to its highest level to not have a hiccup in the programming, or you might miss his production and give him a raise, or release him (morale goes to mean levels)

Hows that sound?

[risp2out]

Originally Posted by Carlton

Can Markus create a 'trigger event' when morale becomes too low?

We have the personality attributes, thus if Player A is not loyal, is greedy, has too much competition at his spot, he would sit out, making it a self engineered DFA for a season.

At that point you can let him rot until he retires, trade him where his morale goes to its highest level to not have a hiccup in the programming, or you might miss his production and give him a raise, or release him (morale goes to mean levels)

Hows that sound?

My thinking is that the game is already able to calculate arbitration demands. Simply link those "what I'm worth" numbers to morale. [Okay, I know, it's probably not as simple as I'm implying.] Then, the player would let you know he's unhappy with his salary, just as he currently does when he's unhappy with his role on team. It could get to the point where he demands a trade.

[Drinky Crow]

I didn't know I needed this feature until it arrived. Now there's no turning back!

[jar2574]

Agreed, good thread. Thanks Markus!

[Carlton]

Originally Posted by risp2out

My thinking is that the game is already able to calculate arbitration demands. Simply link those "what I'm worth" numbers to morale. [Okay, I know, it's probably not as simple as I'm implying.] Then, the player would let you know he's unhappy with his salary, just as he currently does when he's unhappy with his role on team. It could get to the point where he demands a trade.

Or sits out a season...which I always wanted when playing deadball through the 80's

[Carlton]

Originally Posted by risp2out

My thinking is that the game is already able to calculate arbitration demands. Simply link those "what I'm worth" numbers to morale. [Okay, I know, it's probably not as simple as I'm implying.] Then, the player would let you know he's unhappy with his salary, just as he currently does when he's unhappy with his role on team. It could get to the point where he demands a trade.

Or sits out a season...which I always wanted when playing deadball through the 80's

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Carlton

Or sits out a season...which I always wanted when playing deadball through the 80's

That happened very rarely, however. I forget where I got these numbers from, but here are the number of long-term hold-outs (defined as 30 days or more) and the number that held out for the entire season for the 20th century. Years not listed had no hold-outs in either category.

Number of long-term player hold outs

      30+ days  Entire season
1905     1            0
1906     2            2
1907     2            0
1909     2            1
1910     0            1
1913     0            1
1915     0            1
1916     0            1
1918     2            0
1920     0            1
1921     1            0
1922     4            0
1924     1            0
1927     1            0
1928     1            0
1929     1            0
1930     2            0
1937     1            0
1943     1            0
1945     0            1
1950     1            0
1970     0            1
1971     0            1
1972     1            0

As you can see, there were very few long-term hold-outs.

[risp2out]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

That happened very rarely, however. I forget where I got these numbers from, but here are the number of long-term hold-outs (defined as 30 days or more) and the number that held out for the entire season for the 20th century. Years not listed had no hold-outs in either category.

As you can see, there were very few long-term hold-outs.

That's true, but the game needs to find a way to make you pay something for players who develop into big stars. After all, Babe Ruth was able to wrangle a salary bigger than the President's, and Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle weren't paid what they were signed for throughout their careers.

I think things like the player's popularity and intelligence should play into the salary calculations. I'm not terribly concerned with the negotiation part, but I think if you undercut a popular player, he should express his displeasure and maybe fan interest takes a hit. So, probably, should player performance. If a guy hits 40 bombs and knocks in 130 runs and you don't respond, he might get ticked off and phone it in until you up the kitty, for example. At any rate, I think salary needs to become a factor under the player's happiness rating.

I love historical play, historical fictional, and all that accompanies trying to recreate the first half or two-thirds of the last century. The development of this financial feature is far and away my favorite addition to the game. I just want to push it to the next level.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

As you can see, there were very few long-term hold-outs.

Are you counting the players who jumped to outlaw leagues? While not technically "hold outs", they nevertheless decided to thumb their nose at the club's offer....