Unaffiliated Minor League Teams

TomVeal · 01-24-2015, 11:27 PM

Now and then it's been noted that, while affiliated and unaffiliated teams can be included in the same minor league, the unaffiliated act strangely and wind up as unbeatable superclubs. Has any thought been given to making them workable elements of OOTP?

Markus Heinsohn · 01-25-2015, 04:11 AM

Hmm... first we'd need to find out why this is. I guess it is probably because there's too much talent in your FA pools which signs for the minor league team and hence making it better than the competition.

Le Grande Orange · 01-25-2015, 04:30 AM

In real life unaffiliated clubs in affiliated minor leagues tend to do poorly in full season leagues but do all right in short season leagues. Real-world data below (first posted by me back in 2012).

***

From 1973-1995 there were a total of 75 clubs which operated independently in otherwise affiliated minor leagues. (There were no independents from 1996-2006.)

Of those 75 clubs, 27 (36%) were in full season leagues and 48 (64%) in short season leagues. Of the ones in the full season leagues, 26 were in the High-A leagues (California, Carolina, Florida State) and 1 in Low-A (South Atlantic League). Of the ones in short season leagues, 34 were in Short-A leagues (New York-Penn, Northwest) and 14 in Rookie (Pioneer, Appalachian).

In aggregate, the clubs in full season leagues compiled a 1437-2287 .386 record, while the independents in the short season leagues compiled a 1752-1741 .502 record. Below is a table showing the results for each independent club in the two types of affiliated minor leagues, ordered by winning percentage.

Code:

FULL SEASON LEAGUES

Year  Lg  Class Team             W   L   Pct
--------------------------------------------
1986  FSL  A-H  Miami           74  66  .529
1990  CAL  A-H  Reno            71  68  .511
1987  CAL  A-H  San Bernardino  70  72  .493
1989  CAL  A-H  Reno            68  74  .479
1986  CAL  A-H  San Jose        65  77  .458
1979  CAL  A-H  Bakersfield     63  77  .450
1986  CAR  A-H  Kinston         60  76  .441
1978  CAR  A-H  Alexandria      58  75  .436
1991  CAL  A-H  Reno            59  77  .434
1978  CAR  A-H  Kinston         57  77  .425
1985  FSL  A-H  Miami           58  83  .411
1988  FSL  A-H  Miami           55  79  .410
1991  CAL  A-H  Salinas         55  81  .404
1984  CAL  A-H  San Jose        55  85  .393
1982  FSL  A-H  Miami           53  84  .387
1980  CAR  A-H  Alexandria      54  86  .386
1985  CAL  A-H  San Jose        55  88  .385
1978  CAL  A-H  Bakersfield     48  92  .343
1990  CAL  A-H  Salinas         47  93  .336
1987  FSL  A-H  Miami           44  89  .331
1989  CAR  A-H  Peninsula       44  89  .331
1990  FSL  A-H  Miami           44  93  .321
1985  SAL  A-L  Gastonia        44  93  .321
1989  FSL  A-H  Miami           43  91  .321
1992  CAL  A-H  Salinas         36  99  .267
1987  CAL  A-H  San Jose        33 109  .232
1980  CAR  A-H  Rocky Mount     24 114  .174


SHORT SEASON LEAGUES

Year  Lg  Class Team             W   L   Pct
--------------------------------------------
1987  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  49  21  .700
1991  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  49  21  .700
1992  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  53  23  .697
1978  NWL  A-S  Grays Harbor    47  23  .671
1977  NWL  A-S  Portland        44  22  .667
1985  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  46  24  .657
1983  NYP  A-S  Utica           48  26  .649
1984  PIO  R-A  Helena          44  24  .647
1986  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  45  25  .643
1990  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  42  26  .618
1980  NWL  A-S  Victoria        42  28  .600
1974  NWL  A-S  Portland        50  34  .595
1988  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  41  29  .586
1990  NYP  A-S  Erie            44  33  .571
1979  NWL  A-S  Victoria        41  31  .569
1994  PIO  R-A  Ogden           41  31  .569
1973  NWL  A-S  Portland        45  35  .563
1981  NYP  A-S  Utica           39  31  .557
1976  NWL  A-S  Portland        40  32  .556
1982  NYP  A-S  Utica           41  34  .547
1975  NWL  A-S  Portland        42  35  .545
1976  NWL  A-S  Seattle         39  33  .542
1993  PIO  R-A  Pocatello       37  38  .493
1980  NWL  A-S  Salem           34  36  .486
1980  NWL  A-S  Grays Harbor    33  36  .478
1978  APP  R-A  Paintsville     33  36  .478
1989  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  33  36  .478
1989  NWL  A-S  Boise           35  40  .467
1985  NYP  A-S  Utica           35  41  .461
1979  NWL  A-S  Salem           33  39  .458
1995  PIO  R-A  Ogden           32  38  .457
1979  NYP  A-S  Newark          32  39  .451
1985  NWL  A-S  Tri-City        33  41  .446
1975  NWL  A-S  Seattle         35  44  .443
1978  NYP  A-S  Niagara Falls   30  40  .429
1979  NYP  A-S  Niagara Falls   30  41  .423
1978  NWL  A-S  Victoria        29  40  .420
1984  NYP  A-S  Utica           31  44  .413
1974  NWL  A-S  New Westminster 34  50  .405
1988  NWL  A-S  Boise           30  46  .395
1978  NWL  A-S  Salem           25  44  .362
1976  NWL  A-S  Grays Harbor    26  46  .361
1987  NWL  A-S  Boise           26  50  .342
1977  NWL  A-S  Salem           22  46  .324
1974  NWL  A-S  Tri-City        27  57  .321
1978  NWL  A-S  Boise           23  49  .319
1987  NYP  A-S  Batavia         23  54  .299
1985  PIO  R-A  Idaho Falls     19  49  .279

Just two (7.4%) of the independents in the full season leagues managed to post a record above.500; the rest (92.6%) were under, and a few of the clubs were truly dreadful. In short season leagues, however, 22 (45.8%) of the 48 teams posted records above .500, and 11 (22.9%) were above .600 — some short season independent clubs were able to be very competitive indeed.

Here's the same data again, this time ordered by club and year, allowing one to see the year-by-year progression for those clubs which operated as independents in consecutive years.

Code:

FULL SEASON LEAGUES

Year  Lg  Class Team             W   L   Pct
--------------------------------------------
1978  CAR  A-H  Alexandria      58  75  .436
1980  CAR  A-H  Alexandria      54  86  .386
1978  CAL  A-H  Bakersfield     48  92  .343
1979  CAL  A-H  Bakersfield     63  77  .450
1985  SAL  A-L  Gastonia        44  93  .321
1978  CAR  A-H  Kinston         57  77  .425
1986  CAR  A-H  Kinston         60  76  .441
1982  FSL  A-H  Miami           53  84  .387
1985  FSL  A-H  Miami           58  83  .411
1986  FSL  A-H  Miami           74  66  .529
1987  FSL  A-H  Miami           44  89  .331
1988  FSL  A-H  Miami           55  79  .410
1989  FSL  A-H  Miami           43  91  .321
1990  FSL  A-H  Miami           44  93  .321
1989  CAR  A-H  Peninsula       44  89  .331
1989  CAL  A-H  Reno            68  74  .479
1990  CAL  A-H  Reno            71  68  .511
1991  CAL  A-H  Reno            59  77  .434
1980  CAR  A-H  Rocky Mount     24 114  .174
1990  CAL  A-H  Salinas         47  93  .336
1991  CAL  A-H  Salinas         55  81  .404
1992  CAL  A-H  Salinas         36  99  .267
1987  CAL  A-H  San Bernardino  70  72  .493
1984  CAL  A-H  San Jose        55  85  .393
1985  CAL  A-H  San Jose        55  88  .385
1986  CAL  A-H  San Jose        65  77  .458
1987  CAL  A-H  San Jose        33 109  .232


SHORT SEASON LEAGUES

Year  Lg  Class Team             W   L   Pct
--------------------------------------------
1987  NYP  A-S  Batavia         23  54  .299
1978  NWL  A-S  Boise           23  49  .319
1987  NWL  A-S  Boise           26  50  .342
1988  NWL  A-S  Boise           30  46  .395
1989  NWL  A-S  Boise           35  40  .467
1990  NYP  A-S  Erie            44  33  .571
1976  NWL  A-S  Grays Harbor    26  46  .361
1978  NWL  A-S  Grays Harbor    47  23  .671
1980  NWL  A-S  Grays Harbor    33  36  .478
1984  PIO  R-A  Helena          44  24  .647
1985  PIO  R-A  Idaho Falls     19  49  .279
1974  NWL  A-S  New Westminster 34  50  .405
1979  NYP  A-S  Newark          32  39  .451
1978  NYP  A-S  Niagara Falls   30  40  .429
1979  NYP  A-S  Niagara Falls   30  41  .423
1994  PIO  R-A  Ogden           41  31  .569
1995  PIO  R-A  Ogden           32  38  .457
1978  APP  R-A  Paintsville     33  36  .478
1993  PIO  R-A  Pocatello       37  38  .493
1973  NWL  A-S  Portland        45  35  .563
1974  NWL  A-S  Portland        50  34  .595
1975  NWL  A-S  Portland        42  35  .545
1976  NWL  A-S  Portland        40  32  .556
1977  NWL  A-S  Portland        44  22  .667
1977  NWL  A-S  Salem           22  46  .324
1978  NWL  A-S  Salem           25  44  .362
1979  NWL  A-S  Salem           33  39  .458
1980  NWL  A-S  Salem           34  36  .486
1985  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  46  24  .657
1986  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  45  25  .643
1987  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  49  21  .700
1988  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  41  29  .586
1989  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  33  36  .478
1990  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  42  26  .618
1991  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  49  21  .700
1992  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  53  23  .697
1975  NWL  A-S  Seattle         35  44  .443
1976  NWL  A-S  Seattle         39  33  .542
1974  NWL  A-S  Tri-City        27  57  .321
1985  NWL  A-S  Tri-City        33  41  .446
1981  NYP  A-S  Utica           39  31  .557
1982  NYP  A-S  Utica           41  34  .547
1983  NYP  A-S  Utica           48  26  .649
1984  NYP  A-S  Utica           31  44  .413
1985  NYP  A-S  Utica           35  41  .461
1978  NWL  A-S  Victoria        29  40  .420
1979  NWL  A-S  Victoria        41  31  .569
1980  NWL  A-S  Victoria        42  28  .600

The Wolf · 01-25-2015, 11:28 AM

LGO, please don't ever leave this forum. Nobody else knows this stuff but you.

Padreman · 01-25-2015, 12:03 PM

Yes Markus it's a problem unaffiliated teams sign top free agents. First how they get the money to sign a super star and 2 why would a super star want to play for a minor league team. I agree they should sign free agents but a limit money wise on whom

Markus Heinsohn · 01-25-2015, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Padreman

Yes Markus it's a problem unaffiliated teams sign top free agents. First how they get the money to sign a super star and 2 why would a super star want to play for a minor league team. I agree they should sign free agents but a limit money wise on whom

It's likely not money related... this part usually works as intended. I'd need to run some test to see what's really happening.

SirMichaelJordan · 01-25-2015, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Padreman

Yes Markus it's a problem unaffiliated teams sign top free agents. First how they get the money to sign a super star and 2 why would a super star want to play for a minor league team. I agree they should sign free agents but a limit money wise on whom

I don't think they use money just "minor league contracts" vets should be signing those contracts rather than being stuck in FA.

I figure the unaffiliated teams wouldn't dominate much if the league they were in was AAA. Anything lower than that you may want to put a age limit so those unaffiliated teams have the same talent level instead of getting top vet FA's.

Assos · 01-25-2015, 02:17 PM

Funny, I was thinking about this in the shower this morning and the old Miami Miracles.
I thought the settings of league quality and the minor contract with 30 days to get a call up was the suppress this?

Le Grande Orange · 01-25-2015, 07:48 PM

If nothing else the real-world data provides a reference for how independent clubs in an otherwise affiliated league should fair in OOTP (which was the intent behind putting together the tables). Independent clubs in full-season leagues should tend to do not so well while in short-season leagues independent clubs can compete fairly well.

If independent clubs in OOTP can perform within the ranges of the real-life data, then things are in good shape.

The Game · 01-25-2015, 09:10 PM

Portland Mavericks were pretty darn good.
Portland Mavericks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.oregonlive.com/movies/ind...aseball_1.html

Leo_The_Lip · 01-26-2015, 10:21 AM

I would love to see the House of David team added, however to what purpose other than they existed, I don't know:

How an apocalyptic cult invented baseball beard power - Ideas - The Boston Globe

01-24-2015, 11:27 PM	#1
TomVeal All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Spanaway, Washington Posts: 1,181	Unaffiliated Minor League Teams Now and then it's been noted that, while affiliated and unaffiliated teams can be included in the same minor league, the unaffiliated act strangely and wind up as unbeatable superclubs. Has any thought been given to making them workable elements of OOTP?

01-25-2015, 04:11 AM	#2
Markus Heinsohn Developer OOTP Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 24,738	Hmm... first we'd need to find out why this is. I guess it is probably because there's too much talent in your FA pools which signs for the minor league team and hence making it better than the competition. __________________ Buy Out of the Park Baseball 25 now! Download OOTP Go 25 for iOS Download OOTP Go 25 for Android

01-25-2015, 12:03 PM	#5
Padreman Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2013 Location: Tijuana, Baja California, Mexico (formally San Diego, CA.) Posts: 4,140 Blog Entries: 1	Yes Markus it's a problem unaffiliated teams sign top free agents. First how they get the money to sign a super star and 2 why would a super star want to play for a minor league team. I agree they should sign free agents but a limit money wise on whom __________________ Chargers= Despicable Traitors

01-25-2015, 09:10 PM	#10
The Game Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Inside The Game Posts: 30,803	Portland Mavericks were pretty darn good. Portland Mavericks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://www.oregonlive.com/movies/ind...aseball_1.html __________________ Go today don't wait for tomorrow It isn't promised, all the time you get borrowed Don't live your life for other people Don't bottle your emotions till they crack and fill a couple just sorrows Take your mind and refocus go get a paper write your goals out Throw your middle fingers to all your haters "Stay Strong" Last edited by The Game; 01-25-2015 at 09:11 PM.

01-26-2015, 10:21 AM	#11
Leo_The_Lip All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 1,703	I would love to see the House of David team added, however to what purpose other than they existed, I don't know: How an apocalyptic cult invented baseball beard power - Ideas - The Boston Globe __________________ "My name will live forever" - Anonymous

01-25-2015, 02:17 PM	#8
Assos All Star Starter Join Date: May 2004 Location: Just on the fair side of the foul pole! Posts: 1,772	Funny, I was thinking about this in the shower this morning and the old Miami Miracles. I thought the settings of league quality and the minor contract with 30 days to get a call up was the suppress this?

01-25-2015, 07:48 PM	#9
Le Grande Orange Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Up There Posts: 15,403	If nothing else the real-world data provides a reference for how independent clubs in an otherwise affiliated league should fair in OOTP (which was the intent behind putting together the tables). Independent clubs in full-season leagues should tend to do not so well while in short-season leagues independent clubs can compete fairly well. If independent clubs in OOTP can perform within the ranges of the real-life data, then things are in good shape.