Will Negro Leagues get respect in OOTPXX?

RMc · 03-08-2019, 11:07 AM

Anyone's whose studied the relative value of the Negro Leagues has pretty much come to the same conclusion: the top NeL players were every bit as good as the best major-leaguers, but, top-to-bottom, the NeL wasn't as good as the AL or NL. AAA-level, probably, or perhaps AAAA.

Well, you sure couldn't tell that from OOTP. I re-simmed the years 1920 to 1950, creating hybrid leagues with MLB, AAA, AA and NeL teams. The result? Even the best NeL teams couldn't stay out of the big-league cellar, and indeed couldn't really compete with AAA teams. (An example: 1935, a league with IL, AA, PCL and NeL teams [8 from each]. None of the NeL teams could even play .500 ball; their average record was 63-91, with all 8 teams bunched in the bottom 12 of the 32-team league. Ouch.

)

The NeL teams did better against AA competition, usually with one of their teams winning the pennant and, as a group, playing roughly .600 ball. So this makes the Negro Leagues, what, AA-quality? AA-and-a-half, maybe?

Is this a flaw in the database? Should NeL teams and players get more respect? Whaddya thinks, fellas?

swampdragon · 03-08-2019, 11:52 AM

Did you try them against just the AAA teams? I'd be curious to know the results, particularly the KC and Pittsburgh teams. They should be better than AAA quality. Or take the Browns and Phillies out of MLB and put the Monarchs and Crawfords in.

RMc · 03-08-2019, 04:00 PM

I ran the NeL teams against AAA teams, and rarely did they even play .500 ball against them; more often, they were in or close to last place.

The individual player ratings seem low, too: the very best NeL players, guys like Willie Wells and Mule Suttles, are rated around 45-50, on a 80-point scale. Really?

The Game · 03-08-2019, 04:47 PM

Not true science here but in my EBL vs MLB league both Paige & gibson suck after 5 seasons. Both were studs prior to that. In my ABF league, many NeL players were superstars,

Spritze · 03-09-2019, 12:49 AM

1) Negro leagues are set as if they were one level below the MLB.
2) Stats are just whatever they were. OOTP uses 3 or 4 different sources for any one year with Seamheads data carrying the most weight.

In my personal leagues with the color barrier off Paige and Gibson generally are HOF players as are many others like Turkey Stearnes, Bullet Joe Rogan, Bill Foster, Chino Smith. Heavy Johnson, Cristobal Torriente, and Oscar Charleston. In my current league (1871-1932) there are 80 players in the HOF of which 13 are of African descent.

I am not sure I see the respect issue you point out.

RMc · 03-09-2019, 09:05 AM

1) Negro leagues are set as if they were one level below the MLB.

Yeah, but they sure don't play like it. The NeL should be comparable to AAA, but they're not.

In my personal leagues with the color barrier off Paige and Gibson generally are HOF players as are many others like Turkey Stearnes, Bullet Joe Rogan, Bill Foster, Chino Smith. Heavy Johnson, Cristobal Torriente, and Oscar Charleston. In my current league (1871-1932) there are 80 players in the HOF of which 13 are of African descent.

Mine, too. But the very same superstars who have 75-80 ratings in a colorblind league have numbers more like 45-50 in the NeL. Is it because player's ratings are automatically downgraded if they play in an AAA league, rather than the majors?

I am not sure I see the respect issue you point out.

In OOTP, the Negro Leagues are the Rodney Dangerfield of big-time baseball.

Spritze · 03-09-2019, 10:45 AM

I loaded my MLB team with 6 negro league players and none had a ratings change when I did so.

I moved the entire Birmingham black barons team to the international league replacing montreal and they finished third after finishing 2nd the year before in the negro leagues.

Perhaps there is a setting somewhere causing what you see. my test league is straight out of the box settings other than moving people and teams around.

I'm stumped, did a bunch more testing and cannot recreate what you are seeing.

acfinn · 03-09-2019, 06:32 PM

Side question, if I create a world with random debuts can I have negro league players enter as well?

Spritze · 03-09-2019, 07:26 PM

random debutants is MLB only at this time.

sdw1000 · 03-10-2019, 12:34 AM

Ya...I've had the best Negro league teams in my mixed era leagues and they performed horribly. Certain players were decent but the 1935 Homestead Grays and 1937 Pittsburgh Crawfords were in last place in each league.

But yes..I do hope they continue to keep them in the game.

joefromchicago · 03-10-2019, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RMc

Anyone's whose studied the relative value of the Negro Leagues has pretty much come to the same conclusion: the top NeL players were every bit as good as the best major-leaguers, but, top-to-bottom, the NeL wasn't as good as the AL or NL. AAA-level, probably, or perhaps AAAA.

I haven't played with the Negro Leagues, so this is pure speculation on my part, but could part of the problem be that there just aren't very many NeL players to work with? Most NeL teams carried the bare minimum of players, usually fewer than 20. So once you get past the everyday players, you're left with a bunch of guys who appeared in only a handful of games. Their stats are probably not good, but they're needed to fill out a major-league roster of 25. As a result, you might have a starting lineup that is comparable to AAA/AAAA, but the bench is filled with rookie-leaguers.

Just a thought.

Spritze · 03-10-2019, 09:43 AM

same thought I had while testing this - negro leagues are not as deep. so to test this hypothesis I created an all-star team and put them in the PCL. Finished first.

another thing I noticed was lots of negro league teenagers. when I tracked them their ratings increased as time went by which is to be expected.

acfinn · 03-10-2019, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

random debutants is MLB only at this time.

Is there a way to import them manually?

The Game · 03-11-2019, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acfinn

Is there a way to import them manually?

Yes. Type the plsyers name in Google then bbref after to pull that players up in bbref then use the html? ID for the player. Gibson is gibson002jos
or gibsonj99
https://www.baseball-reference.com/r...d=gibson002jos
you can make a text file for importing multiple players. i have a league i started with in 1920 and simmed til 1970 so i can access the players ID's in case the bbref ID does not work. There are a few.
When importing select import minor league database.

swampdragon · 03-11-2019, 05:56 PM

I just thought of something. When you start a historical league, the default option adjusts hitters (I assume downwards) with fewer than 300 AB. Because of the shorter Negro League seasons, all of the Negro League players will have fewer than 300 AB. You have to cut that number down to 100 when you create the league.

RMc · 03-14-2019, 01:41 PM

Quote:

I just thought of something. When you start a historical league, the default option adjusts hitters (I assume downwards) with fewer than 300 AB. Because of the shorter Negro League seasons, all of the Negro League players will have fewer than 300 AB. You have to cut that number down to 100 when you create the league.

(RMc slaps forehead with his palm, mutters, "Ow!")

Let's try that 1935 league again, this time cutting the playtime numbers from 300 to 100 (and the second number to 0); also, the pitching playtime numbers are cut down. And...well, they got a little better.

The average NeL team in this combined league is 71-91, with two teams over .500 (NY Cubans, 91-63, 6th place out of 32, and Pittsburgh Crawfords, 79-75, 15th place). About a 100-percentage points per team improvement from the previous experiment.

Still a letdown, tho.

RMc · 03-14-2019, 02:13 PM

OK, let's try this again...this time with the playtime numbers zeroed out all together...

The Crawfords win the pennant! The Crawfords win the pennant!

Actually, co-won; they finished tied for first at 98-56. Average record of the eight NeL teams: 76-78, with Homestead (88 wins), NYCubans (80) and Brooklyn (79) finishing above .500. I think it's fair to say that the NeL top-to-bottom, adjusted for playing time, is a AAA quality league!

sdw1000 · 06-18-2019, 06:35 AM

That's been true with my replays. I've had a NegL team with other MLB teams in a league, modern and past and the Negro League team performed horrible. They can hit, they just can't pitch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RMc

Anyone's whose studied the relative value of the Negro Leagues has pretty much come to the same conclusion: the top NeL players were every bit as good as the best major-leaguers, but, top-to-bottom, the NeL wasn't as good as the AL or NL. AAA-level, probably, or perhaps AAAA.

Well, you sure couldn't tell that from OOTP. I re-simmed the years 1920 to 1950, creating hybrid leagues with MLB, AAA, AA and NeL teams. The result? Even the best NeL teams couldn't stay out of the big-league cellar, and indeed couldn't really compete with AAA teams. (An example: 1935, a league with IL, AA, PCL and NeL teams [8 from each]. None of the NeL teams could even play .500 ball; their average record was 63-91, with all 8 teams bunched in the bottom 12 of the 32-team league. Ouch.

)

The NeL teams did better against AA competition, usually with one of their teams winning the pennant and, as a group, playing roughly .600 ball. So this makes the Negro Leagues, what, AA-quality? AA-and-a-half, maybe?

Is this a flaw in the database? Should NeL teams and players get more respect? Whaddya thinks, fellas?

Spritze · 06-18-2019, 09:43 AM

be sure to change your make bad settings for pitchers to a very low setting. any negro league pitcher who has less than 160 innings a year will be made bad and that is pretty much all of them since they played 60 or 70 game seasons.

sdw1000 · 06-18-2019, 10:52 AM

I don't know what "make bad settings" is..

03-08-2019, 11:07 AM	#1
RMc All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1,418	Will Negro Leagues get respect in OOTPXX? Anyone's whose studied the relative value of the Negro Leagues has pretty much come to the same conclusion: the top NeL players were every bit as good as the best major-leaguers, but, top-to-bottom, the NeL wasn't as good as the AL or NL. AAA-level, probably, or perhaps AAAA. Well, you sure couldn't tell that from OOTP. I re-simmed the years 1920 to 1950, creating hybrid leagues with MLB, AAA, AA and NeL teams. The result? Even the best NeL teams couldn't stay out of the big-league cellar, and indeed couldn't really compete with AAA teams. (An example: 1935, a league with IL, AA, PCL and NeL teams [8 from each]. None of the NeL teams could even play .500 ball; their average record was 63-91, with all 8 teams bunched in the bottom 12 of the 32-team league. Ouch. ) The NeL teams did better against AA competition, usually with one of their teams winning the pennant and, as a group, playing roughly .600 ball. So this makes the Negro Leagues, what, AA-quality? AA-and-a-half, maybe? Is this a flaw in the database? Should NeL teams and players get more respect? Whaddya thinks, fellas? __________________ "We're all behind our baseball team..."

03-08-2019, 11:52 AM	#2
swampdragon Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Lonely Mountain Posts: 2,509	Did you try them against just the AAA teams? I'd be curious to know the results, particularly the KC and Pittsburgh teams. They should be better than AAA quality. Or take the Browns and Phillies out of MLB and put the Monarchs and Crawfords in. __________________ “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies." -- C.S. Lewis

03-08-2019, 04:00 PM	#3
RMc All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1,418	I ran the NeL teams against AAA teams, and rarely did they even play .500 ball against them; more often, they were in or close to last place. The individual player ratings seem low, too: the very best NeL players, guys like Willie Wells and Mule Suttles, are rated around 45-50, on a 80-point scale. Really? __________________ "We're all behind our baseball team..."

03-08-2019, 04:47 PM	#4
The Game Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Inside The Game Posts: 30,803	Not true science here but in my EBL vs MLB league both Paige & gibson suck after 5 seasons. Both were studs prior to that. In my ABF league, many NeL players were superstars, __________________ Go today don't wait for tomorrow It isn't promised, all the time you get borrowed Don't live your life for other people Don't bottle your emotions till they crack and fill a couple just sorrows Take your mind and refocus go get a paper write your goals out Throw your middle fingers to all your haters "Stay Strong"

03-09-2019, 12:49 AM	#5
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,254	1) Negro leagues are set as if they were one level below the MLB. 2) Stats are just whatever they were. OOTP uses 3 or 4 different sources for any one year with Seamheads data carrying the most weight. In my personal leagues with the color barrier off Paige and Gibson generally are HOF players as are many others like Turkey Stearnes, Bullet Joe Rogan, Bill Foster, Chino Smith. Heavy Johnson, Cristobal Torriente, and Oscar Charleston. In my current league (1871-1932) there are 80 players in the HOF of which 13 are of African descent. I am not sure I see the respect issue you point out. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it! Last edited by Spritze; 03-09-2019 at 01:14 AM.

03-09-2019, 09:05 AM	#6
RMc All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1,418	1) Negro leagues are set as if they were one level below the MLB. Yeah, but they sure don't play like it. The NeL should be comparable to AAA, but they're not. In my personal leagues with the color barrier off Paige and Gibson generally are HOF players as are many others like Turkey Stearnes, Bullet Joe Rogan, Bill Foster, Chino Smith. Heavy Johnson, Cristobal Torriente, and Oscar Charleston. In my current league (1871-1932) there are 80 players in the HOF of which 13 are of African descent. Mine, too. But the very same superstars who have 75-80 ratings in a colorblind league have numbers more like 45-50 in the NeL. Is it because player's ratings are automatically downgraded if they play in an AAA league, rather than the majors? I am not sure I see the respect issue you point out. In OOTP, the Negro Leagues are the Rodney Dangerfield of big-time baseball. __________________ "We're all behind our baseball team..."

03-09-2019, 10:45 AM	#7
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,254	I loaded my MLB team with 6 negro league players and none had a ratings change when I did so. I moved the entire Birmingham black barons team to the international league replacing montreal and they finished third after finishing 2nd the year before in the negro leagues. Perhaps there is a setting somewhere causing what you see. my test league is straight out of the box settings other than moving people and teams around. I'm stumped, did a bunch more testing and cannot recreate what you are seeing. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it! Last edited by Spritze; 03-09-2019 at 12:15 PM.

03-09-2019, 06:32 PM	#8
acfinn Bat Boy Join Date: Feb 2019 Posts: 8	Side question, if I create a world with random debuts can I have negro league players enter as well?

03-09-2019, 07:26 PM	#9
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,254	random debutants is MLB only at this time. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

03-10-2019, 12:34 AM	#10
sdw1000 All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: SC USA Posts: 862 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Ya...I've had the best Negro league teams in my mixed era leagues and they performed horribly. Certain players were decent but the 1935 Homestead Grays and 1937 Pittsburgh Crawfords were in last place in each league. But yes..I do hope they continue to keep them in the game.

03-10-2019, 09:43 AM	#12
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,254	same thought I had while testing this - negro leagues are not as deep. so to test this hypothesis I created an all-star team and put them in the PCL. Finished first. another thing I noticed was lots of negro league teenagers. when I tracked them their ratings increased as time went by which is to be expected. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

03-11-2019, 05:56 PM	#15
swampdragon Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Lonely Mountain Posts: 2,509	I just thought of something. When you start a historical league, the default option adjusts hitters (I assume downwards) with fewer than 300 AB. Because of the shorter Negro League seasons, all of the Negro League players will have fewer than 300 AB. You have to cut that number down to 100 when you create the league. __________________ “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies." -- C.S. Lewis

03-14-2019, 02:13 PM	#17
RMc All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1,418	OK, let's try this again...this time with the playtime numbers zeroed out all together... The Crawfords win the pennant! The Crawfords win the pennant! Actually, co-won; they finished tied for first at 98-56. Average record of the eight NeL teams: 76-78, with Homestead (88 wins), NYCubans (80) and Brooklyn (79) finishing above .500. I think it's fair to say that the NeL top-to-bottom, adjusted for playing time, is a AAA quality league! __________________ "We're all behind our baseball team..."

06-18-2019, 09:43 AM	#19
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,254	be sure to change your make bad settings for pitchers to a very low setting. any negro league pitcher who has less than 160 innings a year will be made bad and that is pretty much all of them since they played 60 or 70 game seasons. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

06-18-2019, 10:52 AM	#20
sdw1000 All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: SC USA Posts: 862 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	I don't know what "make bad settings" is..