1977 National League Gold Gloves

fredbeene · 04-11-2019, 01:05 AM

1977 National League Gold Gloves
OF: Cesar Geronimo Garry Maddox Dave Parker

SS: Dave Concepcion 2B: Joe Morgan
3B: Mike Schmidt 1B: Steve Garvey
P: Jim Kaat
C: Johnny Bench

OOTPB Rating
Garvey 67
Morgan 59
schmidt 98
concepcion 86
Maddox 90
geronimo 74
parker 90
bench 100

AL Spencer 1b rating 70

Dyzalot · 04-11-2019, 01:21 AM

Gold gloves don't necessarily correlate to great defensive ability.

Curve Ball Dave · 04-11-2019, 09:28 AM

I don't see what the big deal is. In their day those players were regarded as among the best fielders in the league.

David Watts · 04-11-2019, 09:39 AM

Not a ratings guy so I'm clueless. But, when setting up 1977, did you use single season replay(one year recalc) or career play(3 year recalc)?

BirdWatcher · 04-11-2019, 10:30 AM

So, assuming you are talking about a 1-100 scale here, it appears that players whose defensive skills have stood the test of time in terms of actual data (Schmidt, Bench, Maddox) are quite well represented.
I'm also assuming you are showing just range ratings here (and for Bench Catcher Ability). Which of course is an incomplete picture of defensive abilities in OOTP.
Parker, for instance, has a very good range rating here. But I'm guessing his arm rating might be even better.
I can't speak to why Morgan's range is as low as it is shown here but of course a big part of what makes a second baseman great defensively is the ability to turn the double play.
I have seen mixed information about Garvey's defense though probably more evidence that he was very good than that he wasn't.

Now maybe I'm misunderstanding your point in this thread. Maybe you meant to show how accurate the ratings are. Then again, as Dyzalot pointed out, historically gold glove awards aren't really great indicators of defensive prowess. With advanced metrics getting more attention they are probably getting better. But in the past they really often didn't go to the best fielder at any given position. So I'm not really sure what your point is here.

Based upon many other threads you have started here though I will guess that you are being critical of the ratings. You mention elsewhere that you come from a Strat-O-Matic background. I do too. And I know that with SOM every year there are countless fans who complain about the defensive ratings their favorite players are given. If there is something that seems pretty widely held it is that we are still in early stages in terms of really being able to measure defense accurately. So no game will ever get it 100% right, because there is no 100% right that can be identified.

Given what you have posted here lately my primary advice to you would be to feel free to go into the editor and "fix" any ratings you believe are incorrect. (Yes, I realize that isn't an option in Challenge Mode, but you get to choose whether to play in that mode or not.) Or, like me, shift over to fictional play. That way you will never have to struggle with whether your perceptions of reality align with the game's reality.

04-11-2019, 01:05 AM	#1
fredbeene All Star Starter Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,507 Blog Entries: 3	1977 National League Gold Gloves 1977 National League Gold Gloves OF: Cesar Geronimo Garry Maddox Dave Parker SS: Dave Concepcion 2B: Joe Morgan 3B: Mike Schmidt 1B: Steve Garvey P: Jim Kaat C: Johnny Bench OOTPB Rating Garvey 67 Morgan 59 schmidt 98 concepcion 86 Maddox 90 geronimo 74 parker 90 bench 100 AL Spencer 1b rating 70

04-11-2019, 09:28 AM	#3
Curve Ball Dave Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 2,271	I don't see what the big deal is. In their day those players were regarded as among the best fielders in the league. __________________ "Hitting is timing. Pitching is upsetting timing"-Warren Spahn.

04-11-2019, 01:21 AM	#2
Dyzalot All Star Starter Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,735	Gold gloves don't necessarily correlate to great defensive ability.

04-11-2019, 09:39 AM	#4
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 8,865	Not a ratings guy so I'm clueless. But, when setting up 1977, did you use single season replay(one year recalc) or career play(3 year recalc)?

04-11-2019, 10:30 AM	#5
BirdWatcher Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2018 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 4,262	So, assuming you are talking about a 1-100 scale here, it appears that players whose defensive skills have stood the test of time in terms of actual data (Schmidt, Bench, Maddox) are quite well represented. I'm also assuming you are showing just range ratings here (and for Bench Catcher Ability). Which of course is an incomplete picture of defensive abilities in OOTP. Parker, for instance, has a very good range rating here. But I'm guessing his arm rating might be even better. I can't speak to why Morgan's range is as low as it is shown here but of course a big part of what makes a second baseman great defensively is the ability to turn the double play. I have seen mixed information about Garvey's defense though probably more evidence that he was very good than that he wasn't. Now maybe I'm misunderstanding your point in this thread. Maybe you meant to show how accurate the ratings are. Then again, as Dyzalot pointed out, historically gold glove awards aren't really great indicators of defensive prowess. With advanced metrics getting more attention they are probably getting better. But in the past they really often didn't go to the best fielder at any given position. So I'm not really sure what your point is here. Based upon many other threads you have started here though I will guess that you are being critical of the ratings. You mention elsewhere that you come from a Strat-O-Matic background. I do too. And I know that with SOM every year there are countless fans who complain about the defensive ratings their favorite players are given. If there is something that seems pretty widely held it is that we are still in early stages in terms of really being able to measure defense accurately. So no game will ever get it 100% right, because there is no 100% right that can be identified. Given what you have posted here lately my primary advice to you would be to feel free to go into the editor and "fix" any ratings you believe are incorrect. (Yes, I realize that isn't an option in Challenge Mode, but you get to choose whether to play in that mode or not.) Or, like me, shift over to fictional play. That way you will never have to struggle with whether your perceptions of reality align with the game's reality.