Openers and followers

[clamel]

How deep have you guys gone in this fairly new strategy to prepare the AI. It's not only as the old using of 3-4 relievers as some team in the past had to do, when their starting pitchers was too tired.
Now the strategy even got a name openers/followers. The extreem is also now that the opener just do 1 inning (even 1 batter) sometimes I understand. This strategy has become as evolving as the many different types of shifts the last couple of years.

(Do hope you evolved the shifts to in OOTP20)

So for this openers/followers to work good I read some articles and this one from MLB website looked good to start with. But the complex in it I started to wonder how the AI is programmed to deal with this ? It's not like a normal rotation and should we have settings (and AI extra help) on how the other team that goes to bat looks like. Taking Romos example is what's on my mind.

So how deep will the AI go using it the supposed correct way, if there really is a correct way.
https://www.mlb.com/news/who-will-fo...ner-c277690164

In RL kind of strange the strategy haven't been used earlier and more, but then look at the shift that is nearly overdone these days.

[clamel]

BUMP, really.

My question on how the AI is handling this opener/follow thing. Haven't played enough to see, but I'm sure guys out there have done it.

My concern is if it really works or just mess up starting lineups. As I understand it's one of those new tactics slowly spreading, as the advanced field settings for pulling batters.

All the things should be in that article.

[NoOne]

well, if the ai does it to me, i'll just put 7-8-9 as 1-2-3 in lineup. or maybe the bottom 4.

if i have a team of hof players, i'd just ignore what they are doing.

this is a trend that can't last, unless you force the other team to set their lineup first. (home / away rules? so, at best it can work half the time or you can reduce it's effectiveness very simply)

same with extreme shifts, if players weren't so obstinate. it would go the way of the dodo if you just take what they give you and a results in ~.400-.500 BA results on the shift for even the average player.

[Silfir]

Originally Posted by NoOne

well, if the ai does it to me, i'll just put 7-8-9 as 1-2-3 in lineup. or maybe the bottom 4.

Aren't concessions like that part of what the strategy is aiming for? After all, putting your best guys lower down the order means they'll get fewer at bats.

[UltimateAverageGuy]

lol

[sabrtoothtiger]

Originally Posted by Silfir

Aren't concessions like that part of what the strategy is aiming for? After all, putting your best guys lower down the order means they'll get fewer at bats.

Exactly, with an organizational buy-in I can't see how this strategy is not durable in real life. The evidence for limiting that extra time through the lineup is too strong.

I've been using this strategy in my reds save with some solid success. I've also put it into effect in the minor leagues.

[wallewalls]

I’ve used the strategy quite a bit, albeit I haven’t played a game out where the AI has done it to me as I only play out playoff games but in simulations I’ve noticed that my manager sometimes uses the opener for only one batter. Why does this happen? I know in the playoffs last year the brewers used woodruff for only one batter to open the game but that’s a bit different. Also when I set one of my starters to be the follower they end up coming out of the bullpen in between games which causes them to be fatigued and not at 100% stamina for their follower appearance which then trickles down to the rest of my bullpen because they have to pick up the slack and they ended up being more fatigued than I’m comfortable with. Also I wish that my guy that is set as an opener would be forced to not pitch in days leading up to the start because sometimes I have noticed that if the guy is too tired he won’t make the opener appearance at all and it instead uses a completely different guy or one of my starters from a previous game and it kinda messes things up. Ive started to go into game strategy and bench my opener for a couple games leading up to the opener game but sometimes I forget. I do like that it’s in the game but I think it can be fine tuned a bit.

As far as real life, the strategy works and it’s head to stay.


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[clamel]

The question was basically towards how the AI uses this not "my own team" which I setup myself.
It's a fairly new thing in real life and even newer in OOTP, so naturally it's nice to find out how all players of this game have seen how the AI uses this.

If it's out of wack in the game the "creators" might have a look how it is used. It can have a big effect on pitching IMHO if it's not used correctly. Then whatever is the correct way of handling this ?
We will see on the fields in years to come I guess.

I don't it will be used as often as the extreme shifts the recent years.

[NoOne]

Originally Posted by Silfir

Aren't concessions like that part of what the strategy is aiming for? After all, putting your best guys lower down the order means they'll get fewer at bats.

depends on how good the opener is.

If they bring out a setup/closer quality, i would think giving them fodder to tire them out may be most beneficial.

if the wasted bullet is outweighted by later production, it would be a good thing. math can determine if i am right or wrong, and i'd amend my strategy, if so.

the 'extra' first AB that is partially lost is made up for by avoiding certain failure. everything after that is the same.

if it's just some MR, no i wouldn't do this. And, if it is, why are they doing it? bringing in some pud to start the game can't help much.

clamel: This is a new feature, so i'd expect some tweaking, for sure.

[x McLovin x]

Here's an issue I'm facing with the Opener/Follower setup that I'm not sure how to address. I usually employ multiple openers and multiple followers. The problem I run into, with some frequency, is that when simming, the AI will start with an opener (as intended), replace him with a follower (as intended) and then replaces that follower with another follower (not intended). I'm essentially burning 2 "starting pitchers" in the same game which throws my rotation out of whack. Has anyone else experienced this issue and/or knows a fix for this?

Thanks.

[ruffyen]

Originally Posted by x McLovin x

Here's an issue I'm facing with the Opener/Follower setup that I'm not sure how to address. I usually employ multiple openers and multiple followers. The problem I run into, with some frequency, is that when simming, the AI will start with an opener (as intended), replace him with a follower (as intended) and then replaces that follower with another follower (not intended). I'm essentially burning 2 "starting pitchers" in the same game which throws my rotation out of whack. Has anyone else experienced this issue and/or knows a fix for this?

Thanks.

That is interesting I have not seen this, do you have allow SP as RP checked? Because I would think that the game would not use SP as RP even if he was setup as a follower.

Regarding some of the other stuff I also have not seen an Opener get used for 0.1 IP either, but I will do some testing and see waht I get. I love the opener strategy personally, and the way I use it depends on the lineup I am against. If I get a standard best hitters in the top lineup I will use my Opener for around 1.2 to 2.0 IP. If I get a 7-8-9 I will run the RP for 3 IP if I can get away with it. Basically anything that will avoid the SP going 3 TTO.

[84Hammy]

Doesn't anyone feel like this strategy in real life is meant to devalue the starting pitcher so that teams can pay them less? It is the same issue I have with bullpens without closers. If the player doesn't have the special designation of closer, he has less value.

[x McLovin x]

Originally Posted by 84Hammy

Doesn't anyone feel like this strategy in real life is meant to devalue the starting pitcher so that teams can pay them less? It is the same issue I have with bullpens without closers. If the player doesn't have the special designation of closer, he has less value.

No, I think it's purely based on optimization of pitching staffs in both instances.

Opener strategy? Lets guarantee our good reliever faces the meat of their order while the score is close while limiting the amount of times the starting pitcher/follower has to face the top of the lineup.

No closers (aka, use your best relievers in the highest leverage situations) - I think that's pretty self explanatory, no? Better to fire that bullet in a tie game or 1-run game with their 2-3-4 hitters due up in the 7th or 8th than firing that bullet with the opposition up 3+ runs in the 9th with their 7-8-9 hitters due up.

I'm sure, however, that teams won't complain if it results in them paying the pitching staff less overall due to the archaic nature of arbitration payouts in the sport.

[NoOne]

Originally Posted by 84Hammy

Doesn't anyone feel like this strategy in real life is meant to devalue the starting pitcher so that teams can pay them less? It is the same issue I have with bullpens without closers. If the player doesn't have the special designation of closer, he has less value.

if they end up with fewer IP, i'd think it would reduce their contracts eventually. but, i also don't think this is going to happen with elite/expensive pitchers very much. so, a borderline guy getting less? probably deserves less, lol.

if they pitch fewer ip, then the relieveres are pitching more and like deserve to be paid more. i think it would by small shifts that would take a long time to become clear. lots of resistance likely for this strategey, even if proven to be beneficial. on average, humans are an obstinate bunch.

i don't think this will catch on, but if it's mathemetically a benefit after people adjust and employ counter-strategies, i'll eat my words with a grin. better late than never, but you gotta quantifiably prove something before i believe. otherwise it's something akin to GNC/snake oil salesman.

[x McLovin x]

Originally Posted by ruffyen

That is interesting I have not seen this, do you have allow SP as RP checked? Because I would think that the game would not use SP as RP even if he was setup as a follower.

Regarding some of the other stuff I also have not seen an Opener get used for 0.1 IP either, but I will do some testing and see waht I get. I love the opener strategy personally, and the way I use it depends on the lineup I am against. If I get a standard best hitters in the top lineup I will use my Opener for around 1.2 to 2.0 IP. If I get a 7-8-9 I will run the RP for 3 IP if I can get away with it. Basically anything that will avoid the SP going 3 TTO.

I checked and confirmed that I do not have allow SP as RP checked.

Outside of playing through every single opener/follower game so I manage the bullpen decisions, I'm not sure if there's an easy fix out there. I suppose I can bench the other follower on the day the first follower is pitching but I'd rather avoid constantly doing this manually throughout the seasons.

[NoOne]

i sim a day at a time for other similar reasons, even though i don't play games out.

i make sure my rotation goes in the order i want. i use 'always start rested' and it will choose a #3-5guy over my top 2 -- the 2 i typically care most about. even if that top-2 SP is ~96% recovered, which is how i set my pitch counts (>=96% by next -- start at worst)

when they go out of order, they lose a start over the season.

my point is that it just takes a few more clicks and a glance. not ideal, but doable. not much slower than clicking 'sim 7 days' etc.

if it doesn't occur all the time, and you just have to 'fix' it occasionally and with a glance to check, then it won't be so bad. if you have to open a game log every time an opener is used to check, that's probably not good enough and a false comparison by me.

[TomVeal]

Here is a possible solution to the problem of an opener or followers being used in relief between his scheduled pitching days: After he pitches in his assigned role, use the Strategy screen to bench him until his next planned appearance.