We are hiring: Software developer for Beyond the Sideline Football

[Ruthian23]

Originally Posted by spiker

EA actually tried this. It was called NFL Head Coach and they made it for console and PC. The game was a commercial flop. Frankly, it didn't really hold a candle to what we expect from a great sports management sim like OOTP or FM. It was more or less Madden without the ability to actually play the game. These days I wouldn't trust EA to make a management sim. Franchise mode in all of their games (FIFA, Madden, NHL, NCAA when it existed) has always been a little off when you start to get a few years deep in the save. They don't really put in the effort to optimize things like stat sims and player development. We're better off with anyone else taking a shot at an NFL sim.

With that said, I presume we are still searching for a developer for BTSF?

I was really excited for NFL Head Coach. What an awful game that was. I'm also surprised by the lack of competition in the football sim arena. The only good option for pro football is Front Office Football, which isn't nearly as strong and well rounded as FM or OOTP. There hasn't been a college football simulation game released since 2006, and that game was way too buggy. Really, the best college football sim I've played is still Front Office Football: The College Years, which was released in like 2001 or 2003 or something like that.

[dumbrabbit]

Originally Posted by Ruthian23

I was really excited for NFL Head Coach. What an awful game that was. I'm also surprised by the lack of competition in the football sim arena. The only good option for pro football is Front Office Football, which isn't nearly as strong and well rounded as FM or OOTP. There hasn't been a college football simulation game released since 2006, and that game was way too buggy. Really, the best college football sim I've played is still Front Office Football: The College Years, which was released in like 2001 or 2003 or something like that.

As awful as they were, I still play both games and I still love both of them. They are still my two favorite football sims of all time, until BTS gets released.

[Cod]

Originally Posted by dumbrabbit

As awful as they were, I still play both games and I still love both of them. They are still my two favorite football sims of all time, until BTS gets released.

Have you tried Bowl Bound College Football yet? It seems pretty deep for a football sim. Check it out sometime: Bowl Bound College Football on Steam

As for BTS, I think the project may be dead unless a programmer comes along soon. If the project sits idle too long, its likely to just "float away". I'd lend my services when I can, but I think the team is looking for a full-time developer that's sole purpose in work life is BTS...I cannot provide that at this time. As I stated earlier, I think this game would benefit from the open source treatment; however, I think a lot of the code already completed may be too similar to the other games OOTP Developments put out, which would keep BTS "closed" if you will.

[BradC]

Um, no, BTS won't "float away." This game is still in the works. M&A are well aware of how big the NFL is in the US. I would imagine this game could easily become our top-selling title.

If you're interested in helping, I would recommend applying even though you're not sure about your availability. Maybe M&A will opt to hire a couple people part-time to help in the meantime. I don't know. I'm not privy to whatever been discussed recently, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to inquire and let them know your background and availability. Maybe something will work out.

[Cod]

Originally Posted by BradC

Um, no, BTS won't "float away." This game is still in the works. M&A are well aware of how big the NFL is in the US. I would imagine this game could easily become our top-selling title.

If you're interested in helping, I would recommend applying even though you're not sure about your availability. Maybe M&A will opt to hire a couple people part-time to help in the meantime. I don't know. I'm not privy to whatever been discussed recently, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to inquire and let them know your background and availability. Maybe something will work out.

I'll run it by the Mrs. when I get back from my current business trip. I'd love the opportunity to help out.

[Ruthian23]

Originally Posted by dumbrabbit

As awful as they were, I still play both games and I still love both of them. They are still my two favorite football sims of all time, until BTS gets released.

I'm not sure which games you're referring to, as I certainly didn't mean to imply that two games were bad. The only one I said was awful was NFL Head Coach. FOF is a fantastic game, just not as feature-rich or visually polished as OOTP or FM. In some ways that's also its greatest strength, as it does what it does very well and is as stable as any game I've ever played. FOF:TCY is also very good, just very old and outdated. Bowl Bound I always found too buggy and slow for my liking, though there was a lot to like about it in theory.

[dumbrabbit]

Originally Posted by Ruthian23

I'm not sure which games you're referring to, as I certainly didn't mean to imply that two games were bad. The only one I said was awful was NFL Head Coach. FOF is a fantastic game, just not as feature-rich or visually polished as OOTP or FM. In some ways that's also its greatest strength, as it does what it does very well and is as stable as any game I've ever played. FOF:TCY is also very good, just very old and outdated. Bowl Bound I always found too buggy and slow for my liking, though there was a lot to like about it in theory.

I was talking about Head Coach. I certainly agree that both games weren't perfect.But I still highly enjoy playing them. Not only because they're the closest things to football sims on consoles, but to me they're my favorite football games I've ever played. Just my own opinion.

[Peedo]

It's regrettable to hear about what's happened to Francis. I hope he's able to fully recover, not for the salvation of the game he was working on, but for his own sake as a human being. God Speed.

Whoever said Arlie's product at Greydog was too full of bugs wasn't lying. I finally had to quit the game because their so-called support section couldn't fix the bugs I kept encountering in their college basketball game. What a waste of money that turned out to be. Kinda similar to the experience I've been having with OOTPv14, whereby I've been unable to effectively play the game for the past 12 (that's TWELVE) months due to a bug that was in the game when I purchased it. Ya, I suppose I could just purchase v16, which supposedly eliminated that bug, but what about the money I wasted to purchase the defective v14? And, maybe I will end up purchasing v16, but I can't imagine receiving any support help, in the event I need it, after telling it like it is in this post.

This football game idea is turning out to be a pipe dream that doesn't sound as if it'll get off the ground. Here's an idea: why doesn't Markus and Andreas focus their resources on producing bug free products they won't be afraid to stand behind?

Now, if it sounds as if I'm a little aggravated, wouldn't you be after waiting with your little support ticket for the past year?

I wouldn't be surprised if this site censored me following this post, but there is nothing in this post that isn't true. If you never hear from me again, you'll know what happened, and you'll know who these people really are. If they don't enjoy being slammed, they need to step up to the plate and do what's right, not just for me, but for the others who have been short-changed.

I can also say my grand son and I thoroughly enjoyed this game while it worked. Not a lot of eleven year-olds have the understanding of baseball strategy as he does now. I initially began with v11, but customer longevity doesn't seem to mean much with OOTP.

If we don't try v16, we may turn our attention to FOF year 'round. My grand son is a bigger football fan than a baseball fan anyway. We just didn't have the time for both computer football and baseball simultaneously.

Good luck to all with this outfit. Just keep smiling and being sweet to 'em.

[Daniro]

Maybe you could contact FOF7 developer
Solecismic Software: Home of Front Office Football
I think that this game is close to perfection, however interface is not user friendly. If we could have FOF7+nice interface and 2D gameplay it would make a perfect combination and high end football manager.

[ohiodevil]

Originally Posted by Peedo

Here's an idea: why doesn't Markus and Andreas focus their resources on producing bug free products they won't be afraid to stand behind?

Not sure the point of your comment but as someone that works in the software industry in QA, there is no such thing as a "bug free" product (just ask anyone that has used any Microsoft product)

And I think Markus and Andreas are usually the first ones to "stand behind" their product. I have played every version of OOTP since 5 and I have never run into any bug that made the game unplayable.

[baseballonly]

Originally Posted by Peedo

I can also say my grand son and I thoroughly enjoyed this game while it worked. Not a lot of eleven year-olds have the understanding of baseball strategy as he does now. I initially began with v11, but customer longevity doesn't seem to mean much with OOTP.

If we don't try v16, we may turn our attention to FOF year 'round. My grand son is a bigger football fan than a baseball fan anyway. We just didn't have the time for both computer football and baseball simultaneously.

Your point being? If you want to play FOF instead of OOTP with your grandson then I don't think anyone is here is here to deprive you of that.

Originally Posted by Peedo

but I can't imagine receiving any support help, in the event I need it, after telling it like it is in this post.

Now, if it sounds as if I'm a little aggravated, wouldn't you be after waiting with your little support ticket for the past year?

Um that's kind of ridiculous to think. I'm sure they won't blacklist you just b/c one post.


If they haven't replied to your support ticket in one year, I'd say it's safe to say that you should probably resubmit it.

[canadiancreed]

...producing bug free products...

Is around where i stopped reading. There is no such thing as bug free software. Never will be.

[ohiodevil]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

Is around where i stopped reading. There is no such thing as bug free software. Never will be.

Skynet!

[BradC]

As others noted, bug-free software products don't exist. EA certainly has them in their sports games.

Please feel free to PM me or email me at brad dot cook at ootpdevelopments dot com RE your ticket. I don't know what happened with it, but I can inquire. I do know there have been problems with our support site in the past (which have now hopefully been fully fixed), and tickets and replies to tickets were sometimes lost.

Same goes for anyone else on these forums who has submitted a ticket and needs some help.

No one will ban you for this post, although I can say that Markus, Andreas, myself, and everyone else at OOTP Dev stands behind our games 100%. If something is broken, we do our best to fix it. Sometimes the fix becomes complicated, and then it's a matter of available resources vs. how critical the bug is. For example, if there's a weird bug involved leagues in 1885, and it will need a ton of man hours to fix it, honestly, that might not get fixed for a while, simply because people who play historical leagues are in the minority, and those who play 19th century leagues are a very small subset of that.

That's just reality, and every software developer has the same approach. If there's a problem with MS Word that's in some funky little feature hardly anyone uses, I'm sure the project managers at Microsoft will apply the same test to decide how to tackle that bug. It doesn't mean it won't get fixed, but it does mean it will get bumped way down the list until the more important stuff is tackled.

I'm not saying your bug fell in that category -- I'm just saying that sometimes that's why some issues linger for a few versions.

Anyway, RE BTS Football: I don't really understand why people think the game is "a pipe dream" that will "float away." When all of us were in Hamburg in June 2014, Francis was with us, and we saw a rudimentary version of the game running. It wasn't something we could show to the public, but it was in the early stages and it was beginning to take shape.

I should also point out that Francis's stroke was not something that came out of the blue: He has had serious heart problems his whole life. They're so severe that he can't even walk quickly. He and I had hotel rooms next to each other when we were in Hamburg, and I learned to stroll leisurely while going down to breakfast with him each morning.

He had actually had some serious health issues before the stroke that impeded progress on the game a bit, but he was stable for a while before the stroke happened.

I can hear someone saying "Well, you should have brought in backup sooner," but this was Francis's project, and you can imagine that would have been a bit awkward. It would have come across like we had no faith in him.

In the end, unfortunately, life can get in the way of best-laid plans. I can tell you, though, that we're still 100% committed to this game and want to make it happen. But we're not an EA, which could very quickly and easily bring in backup and keep a game on track after such a setback, or at least keep it from falling way behind. (Consider also that EA is in the Bay Area, which has tons of programmers who also like sports. Europe is not exactly a hotbed of programmers who are into baseball and the NFL.)

So, Peedo, I hope you keep watching this forum and simply remain patient for more news about the game. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Peedo

It's regrettable to hear about what's happened to Francis. I hope he's able to fully recover, not for the salvation of the game he was working on, but for his own sake as a human being. God Speed.

Whoever said Arlie's product at Greydog was too full of bugs wasn't lying. I finally had to quit the game because their so-called support section couldn't fix the bugs I kept encountering in their college basketball game. What a waste of money that turned out to be. Kinda similar to the experience I've been having with OOTPv14, whereby I've been unable to effectively play the game for the past 12 (that's TWELVE) months due to a bug that was in the game when I purchased it. Ya, I suppose I could just purchase v16, which supposedly eliminated that bug, but what about the money I wasted to purchase the defective v14? And, maybe I will end up purchasing v16, but I can't imagine receiving any support help, in the event I need it, after telling it like it is in this post.

This football game idea is turning out to be a pipe dream that doesn't sound as if it'll get off the ground. Here's an idea: why doesn't Markus and Andreas focus their resources on producing bug free products they won't be afraid to stand behind?

Now, if it sounds as if I'm a little aggravated, wouldn't you be after waiting with your little support ticket for the past year?

I wouldn't be surprised if this site censored me following this post, but there is nothing in this post that isn't true. If you never hear from me again, you'll know what happened, and you'll know who these people really are. If they don't enjoy being slammed, they need to step up to the plate and do what's right, not just for me, but for the others who have been short-changed.

I can also say my grand son and I thoroughly enjoyed this game while it worked. Not a lot of eleven year-olds have the understanding of baseball strategy as he does now. I initially began with v11, but customer longevity doesn't seem to mean much with OOTP.

If we don't try v16, we may turn our attention to FOF year 'round. My grand son is a bigger football fan than a baseball fan anyway. We just didn't have the time for both computer football and baseball simultaneously.

Good luck to all with this outfit. Just keep smiling and being sweet to 'em.

[Ruthian23]

Originally Posted by BradC

Anyway, RE BTS Football: I don't really understand why people think the game is "a pipe dream" that will "float away." When all of us were in Hamburg in June 2014, Francis was with us, and we saw a rudimentary version of the game running. It wasn't something we could show to the public, but it was in the early stages and it was beginning to take shape.

Brad,

Regarding this point, I'm not saying any of those things, but I think many of us, especially in the sim community but also elsewhere, have seen situations in the past where a game looked extremely promising and then the main developer more or less stopped for whatever reason (obviously in this case that reason was totally unavoidable) but still insists the game is in the works until years past and they become vaporware and kind of "float away," as people are saying.

Since it's something we've seen many times in the past with one man development teams and smaller development companies, I think people are just a bit skeptical at this point with the time that has passed without someone being found to work on it, and to some extent are probably thinking those things to moderate their own potential disappointment. For some, they feel like it's almost a Charlie Brown kicking the football kind of thing, where they're basically saying "nope, not going to get fooled by this story again."

I have full confidence that OOTP is 100% behind the game and plans to develop it, and I have more confidence that that will actually happen than I normally would given the company's history and the fact that Markus certainly isn't losing interest, but I'd be lying if I said I don't have a bit of skepticism myself about the project at this point. Like I said, I've seen people and companies say they're still planning to develop projects in the past, and I assume at that time they're not lying or anything, but stuff happens and it just can't get off the ground or past a certain point. I'm still very hopeful that won't be the case here, but that might help you understand where some people are coming from.

[BradC]

Understood, but how many of those situations involved people dealing with life-threatening medical issues? I'm not exaggerating when I say that about Francis.

Having worked for Markus for nearly 5 years now, I can say with complete confidence that he's a very no-nonsense person who won't hesitate to shut the project down if it's not going to happen, rather than issue vague promises for years on end.

At the same time, given our size and our available resources, people need to give us some breathing room. RE hiring someone else: I don't think that notice has really traveled very far online, plus we're not asking someone to take over the game in the long term, just the short term, which limits our applicant pool a bit. And then there's the requirement that the person spend some time in Hamburg to kick things off, which might pose a problem, although in the case of bringing in another programmer for OOTP, it wasn't really an issue.

Originally Posted by Ruthian23

Brad,

Regarding this point, I'm not saying any of those things, but I think many of us, especially in the sim community but also elsewhere, have seen situations in the past where a game looked extremely promising and then the main developer more or less stopped for whatever reason (obviously in this case that reason was totally unavoidable) but still insists the game is in the works until years past and they become vaporware and kind of "float away," as people are saying.

[Ruthian23]

Originally Posted by BradC

Understood, but how many of those situations involved people dealing with life-threatening medical issues? I'm not exaggerating when I say that about Francis.

Having worked for Markus for nearly 5 years now, I can say with complete confidence that he's a very no-nonsense person who won't hesitate to shut the project down if it's not going to happen, rather than issue vague promises for years on end.

At the same time, given our size and our available resources, people need to give us some breathing room. RE hiring someone else: I don't think that notice has really traveled very far online, plus we're not asking someone to take over the game in the long term, just the short term, which limits our applicant pool a bit. And then there's the requirement that the person spend some time in Hamburg to kick things off, which might pose a problem, although in the case of bringing in another programmer for OOTP, it wasn't really an issue.

Not many if any, and to reiterate, I'm not faulting OOTP in any way for the situation or the delay in hiring someone. You said you couldn't understand why people think it's going to float away; I was just trying to explain where some people might be coming from. The circumstances of this situation are certainly different than most and were entirely unavoidable, and I fully understand the significance of a stroke and have said numerous times that it should go without saying that Francis's health is paramount in this, but whatever the circumstances, the basic script looks similar (sudden stop in development, promises the project isn't going away), and I think people are just being cautious and maybe tempering their own expectations.

As I said, I'm still hopeful the project will be released some day, and in no way do I think Markus has any intention of the game not being released at this time.

[Kent814]

Originally Posted by Peedo

It's regrettable to hear about what's happened to Francis. I hope he's able to fully recover, not for the salvation of the game he was working on, but for his own sake as a human being. God Speed.

Whoever said Arlie's product at Greydog was too full of bugs wasn't lying. I finally had to quit the game because their so-called support section couldn't fix the bugs I kept encountering in their college basketball game. What a waste of money that turned out to be. Kinda similar to the experience I've been having with OOTPv14, whereby I've been unable to effectively play the game for the past 12 (that's TWELVE) months due to a bug that was in the game when I purchased it. Ya, I suppose I could just purchase v16, which supposedly eliminated that bug, but what about the money I wasted to purchase the defective v14? And, maybe I will end up purchasing v16, but I can't imagine receiving any support help, in the event I need it, after telling it like it is in this post.

This football game idea is turning out to be a pipe dream that doesn't sound as if it'll get off the ground. Here's an idea: why doesn't Markus and Andreas focus their resources on producing bug free products they won't be afraid to stand behind?

Now, if it sounds as if I'm a little aggravated, wouldn't you be after waiting with your little support ticket for the past year?

I wouldn't be surprised if this site censored me following this post, but there is nothing in this post that isn't true. If you never hear from me again, you'll know what happened, and you'll know who these people really are. If they don't enjoy being slammed, they need to step up to the plate and do what's right, not just for me, but for the others who have been short-changed.

I can also say my grand son and I thoroughly enjoyed this game while it worked. Not a lot of eleven year-olds have the understanding of baseball strategy as he does now. I initially began with v11, but customer longevity doesn't seem to mean much with OOTP.

If we don't try v16, we may turn our attention to FOF year 'round. My grand son is a bigger football fan than a baseball fan anyway. We just didn't have the time for both computer football and baseball simultaneously.

Good luck to all with this outfit. Just keep smiling and being sweet to 'em.

its kind of sad that someone would give a game one shot and just give up on it, especially with a game as great as OOTP. also that he didn't resubmit another support ticket after a week or two is more his problem than OOTP. sometimes the support team gets swamped and can't respond, and this man/woman is so inconsiderate as to think that they are the center of the universe. the support team is volunteer and they have lives too. Pathetic

[USF]

I have been playing simulation sports games for nearly 20 years and the OOTP product is by far the best out there. Yes I have had my share of bugs like we experience with any game but, there response has been 2nd to none. The product is first in class in my books.
Good luck with the Football project. I sent Markus a PM to offer my help not as a programmer but as an experienced football simulation player and commissioner using another competitors product.
Cheers;
Jason

[Zeppelin462]

What do you folks think about getting a post on, say, LinkedIn or other jobs sites (you probably already have and I'm just missing the boat... ha)? I live in the Bay Area (my location on here probably says otherwise since I haven't updated it in so long) and I think you'd be surprised the amount of talent out here that'd be willing to even do something as a pet project to build their credentials.

And yes, I know you want someone very competent and not an amateur, but again, I think you'd be surprised looking out here.