drafting russians

[rstoomeyii]

what is everyone's thoughts on drafting russian players? it seems like very often once they're at the ability level where i'd want to sign them to a two way contract they have joined a khl or vhl team. do people avoid russians unless they can be signed immediately?

[dave1927p]

It's risky in the game. It's safe to say at a certain point most of them will want to play in the NHL, but you need to keep a close eye on them and find the right time to sign.

To me, unless I think they're going to be top players I avoid drafting russians for those reasons.

[Alessandro]

While with Russians is a little bit more of a crapshoot than for other countries, I still think that all this should be adjusted... the fact is that it's a little bit too systemic the way it works atm in the game

[ike121212]

I don't think this is a well implemented risk with Russian players. I've had it happen with other countries as well.

I drafted Patrick Laine first overall yesterday. He wouldn't negotiate with me and eventually became a FA. There was no indication that this was likely to happen, and it's not at all realistic.

[dave1927p]

Originally Posted by ike121212

I don't think this is a well implemented risk with Russian players. I've had it happen with other countries as well.

I drafted Patrick Laine first overall yesterday. He wouldn't negotiate with me and eventually became a FA. There was no indication that this was likely to happen, and it's not at all realistic.

It's not uncommon for players remaining in their home country for another year than come overseas and play in the AHL.

[Adam B]

Originally Posted by dave1927p

It's not uncommon for players remaining in their home country for another year than come overseas and play in the AHL.

It's more common than people think. And it happens in Canada and the U.S. as well. Chicago lost Jimmy Hayes this way . Buffalo was going to lose Brendan Lemieux until they traded him to Winnipeg. Nail Yakupov went back overseas after he didn't crack the NHL lineup. Heck, right now ask the Senators how they feel things are going with Mikhail Wikstrand. Nashville and Columbus (I believe) are dealing with similar situations.

If you go more historical, Teemu Selanne waited 5 years before coming to the NHL. Players make choices.

I'm not sure how the game decides, but it's not every player and it's not every time. But there are plenty of cases where players decide to stay home and not. It does happen.

[ike121212]

Originally Posted by Adam B

It's more common than people think. And it happens in Canada and the U.S. as well. Chicago lost Jimmy Hayes this way . Buffalo was going to lose Brendan Lemieux until they traded him to Winnipeg. Nail Yakupov went back overseas after he didn't crack the NHL lineup. Heck, right now ask the Senators how they feel things are going with Mikhail Wikstrand. Nashville and Columbus (I believe) are dealing with similar situations.

If you go more historical, Teemu Selanne waited 5 years before coming to the NHL. Players make choices.

I'm not sure how the game decides, but it's not every player and it's not every time. But there are plenty of cases where players decide to stay home and not. It does happen.

This is really half accurate. First, here's a good summary of drafted player rights:

"If an NHL team does not sign a player within the two years in which he was drafted, he can re-enter the draft as long as he is 20 years old or younger for his second draft. Players over 20 years old automatically become UFAs. Players can only enter the NHL Draft twice.

For college players that have been drafted, NHL teams retain their rights until 30 days after the player has left college.


A team that does not sign a first-round draft pick receives a compensatory pick in a future draft upon losing the rights to that player, determined on a case-by-case basis."


Second, most players do return to their teams for a year or 2 after being drafted. Sometimes these players are signed and returned. CHL players can't play in the AHL at 18. #1 picks usually play in the NHL. It is extremely rare for a highly drafted player to become a UFA.



Buffalo was not going to lose Brandon Lemieux's rights last year. He was 18 when they traded him. If they didn't sign him, they would have lost him at this year's draft.


Yakupov was signed by the Oilers a month after the draft. He played in the KHL during the strike. He returned to Edmonton after the strike.



In my Laine example, a #1 overall pick becoming a UFA would be unprecedented.

[Adam B]

Originally Posted by ike121212

This is really half accurate. First, here's a good summary of drafted player rights:

"If an NHL team does not sign a player within the two years in which he was drafted, he can re-enter the draft as long as he is 20 years old or younger for his second draft. Players over 20 years old automatically become UFAs. Players can only enter the NHL Draft twice.

For college players that have been drafted, NHL teams retain their rights until 30 days after the player has left college.


A team that does not sign a first-round draft pick receives a compensatory pick in a future draft upon losing the rights to that player, determined on a case-by-case basis."


Second, most players do return to their teams for a year or 2 after being drafted. Sometimes these players are signed and returned. CHL players can't play in the AHL at 18. #1 picks usually play in the NHL. It is extremely rare for a highly drafted player to become a UFA.



Buffalo was not going to lose Brandon Lemieux's rights last year. He was 18 when they traded him. If they didn't sign him, they would have lost him at this year's draft.


Yakupov was signed by the Oilers a month after the draft. He played in the KHL during the strike. He returned to Edmonton after the strike.



In my Laine example, a #1 overall pick becoming a UFA would be unprecedented.

I know exactly how it works but that's a nice write up for those that don't. But it's still a matter of perspective. The Yakupov thing had me a little off, so I must apologize for that, but I believe there was strong rumors at that time he wasn't going to make the club and was going to head to Russia had the league not lost the first half of the year.

Everything I heard about Brendan Lemieux before and after the trade to Winnipeg indicated that he didn't want to play in Buffalo. He was the 31st overall pick. If you're Buffalo, do you let him re-enter the draft or do you try and trade and get something for him? Let us not overlook the fact that most players who are "unsigned" usually end up not getting drafted again and have to hope to get a shot with someone.

You're partially right, having the #1 pick doesn't happen very often. But sometimes a young player dislikes something about an organization and refuses to sign a contract.

See - Eric Lindros.

If it happens multiple years in a row, then that's something to look into, if it occasionally happen, I don't think that's a bad thing.

[dave1927p]

The CBA is different for North American players and Europeans.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/effec...ckey-ryan-lake

[rstoomeyii]

that was a great read thanks for posting.

would love to see some of these factors input in the game. as it stands i believe i have longer than two years to sign my north american players. would also be awesome to filter on the draft screen players that are playing in NA vs EUR. With how many good foreign players i have lost to either not wanting to sign or being signed with the KHL i have been focusing on american and canadian players. i'd love to be able to have a list that maybe includes the czechs, fins, sweedes playing in the CAN/US juniors so i dont miss out

[ike121212]

We'll probably never know the true story on Brandon Lemieux. He did take part in their development camp. A year and half before they'd lose his rights, I don't think this played any role in him being dealt. There's a good chance the Sabres hadn't even offered him a contract at that point.

What's frustrating about the game is that the player simply refuses to talk to you. With an NHL-ready top pick, they would be costing themselves millions of dollars. Their entry level deal is more or less set, and they would be pushing back their RFA/UFA. The way the game handles it isn't fun or realistic. If you want a Lindros situation, you should make it clear that the player is never going to sign with you and demands a trade. Right now, you're left assuming that they'll probably negotiate next year.

First round picks hit the UFA market in the game before 20 regularly. It hurts the balance of the game and ruins the challenge.

Here's a current example from my league:
Sharks #10 overall pick signs a 1 year deal right after the draft. The following summer, becomes a UFA.

[Hadehariast]

It would be beneficial if scouting reports would show a player's interest in signing for you, with some explanation of why. For instance:

<Player> happy to sign with <Team> because...
- wants to play in <League>
- wants to play for <Team>
- wants to compete for a championship

<Player> might be willing to sign with <Team> if...
- guaranteed <Player Status> or better (Depth, Core, Key, etc)
- given a no-trade clause
- given a lucrative contract
- given a one-way contract

<Player> is not currently willing to sign with <Team> because...
- <Team> not competing for championship
- wants to develop in <Other League> (NCAA, Europe, etc)
- does not feel you can meet his contract demands
- does not want to play in <League>
- dislikes <Team>

The 'maybe' players would be where the risk would come into play, and this would reflect the real world better-- players like Kuznetsov have dropped in the past because of concerns about signability (the 'Russian factor'), and it would help you identify players whom you would be almost certainly unable to sign-- similar to how OOTP gives you hints with draft picks.

However, I think the game definitely needs to do a better job with highly talented non-Russian Europeans coming over to the NHL-- even if they don't come over for the first season after they've been drafted (in theory, a development year), they should be very likely to come over for the second season after they've been drafted.

[Torgonius]

Islanders had it with Kirill Petrov this season. He'd played in the KHL since before he was drafted in 2008. He signed a 1 year ELC and came to camp this year.

He didn't make the team out of camp, though he certainly made a case for it. He was sent to the AHL, broke his foot 12 games in, then decided he wanted to go home. Isles loaned him to the KHL where he'll finish the season. They may or may not qualify him in the off season, but there's little reason to believe he'll sign another NHL contract or come to North America.

[rstoomeyii]

Originally Posted by Hadehariast

However, I think the game definitely needs to do a better job with highly talented non-Russian Europeans coming over to the NHL-- even if they don't come over for the first season after they've been drafted (in theory, a development year), they should be very likely to come over for the second season after they've been drafted.

THIS. I'm about 8 years into my first sim and i had a lot of drafts after the first couple years that were Euro heavy. I am losing a ton of guys who don't want to come to the US. I try to sign them every year and now my rights to them has expired.

[JeffR]

Originally Posted by Hadehariast

It would be beneficial if scouting reports would show a player's interest in signing for you, with some explanation of why.

Fair point, and I don't think it'd be that difficult to add. Adam also had a good idea the other day about having a post-draft news roundup of how players (or at least the higher picks) reacted to being drafted by a given team, to give you some indication of what they're going to be like to negotiate with, i.e. "Refused to put on your jersey and left the building when the pick was announced" or "Cried tears of joy in his first interview."

[jslmsca]

Seeing the potential to sign a player in a scouting report is much more beneficial that a post-draft news report. It doesn't do me much good to find out after the draft that the player I picked has no intention of coming over until his four year KHL contract expires.

I'd cringe at seeing a news report about players "refusing to put on a jersey". That's happened exactly twice in a couple decades so hardly realistic.

[Adam B]

Originally Posted by jslmsca

Seeing the potential to sign a player in a scouting report is much more beneficial that a post-draft news report. It doesn't do me much good to find out after the draft that the player I picked has no intention of coming over until his four year KHL contract expires.

I'd cringe at seeing a news report about players "refusing to put on a jersey". That's happened exactly twice in a couple decades so hardly realistic.

The NHL and KHL currently have no transfer agreement, so if you don't do your research on a guy, there is some responsibility on yourself.

The Jersey is a more extreme situation. But something that could happen. More you'd see comments about a person who is "Excited to join the organization" - "Heard good things" going to the opposite end where the player refuses to comment on the city or team.

[ike121212]

Originally Posted by Adam B

The NHL and KHL currently have no transfer agreement, so if you don't do your research on a guy, there is some responsibility on yourself.

How do we do this research?

[Hadehariast]

There is an argument to be made that if a player has a contract for several years with a KHL team, that the user is responsible for drafting that individual anyway-- but that argument also relies on the user having the knowledge that there is no transfer agreement between the KHL and NHL, which is probably not something widely known (except amongst those of us who know too much about hockey sometimes). I don't think that a bit of relatively arcane hockey knowledge should be a requirement for someone to make better draft choices.

Pre-draft knowledge of signability (for all players, not just draftees) is really something that the user needs, but I do like the idea of adding a bit of 'flavour' with a post-draft report-- maybe even add some various lines that might reflect whether the game (in the guise of the "scouting community") thinks you may have taken a player too early, or lucked out and taken a player later than expected, given their hidden potential ratings.

However, I think it's important not to let the KHL-NHL thing distract from the fact that this also applies to all the other European nations and players, including sure-fire NHLers.

[Adam B]

Originally Posted by ike121212

How do we do this research?

When you click on a player and it brings you to his Bio Page, on the far right there is an option of "History". You can see previous injuries, where they've previously signed, etc.

Originally Posted by Hadehariast

There is an argument to be made that if a player has a contract for several years with a KHL team, that the user is responsible for drafting that individual anyway-- but that argument also relies on the user having the knowledge that there is no transfer agreement between the KHL and NHL, which is probably not something widely known (except amongst those of us who know too much about hockey sometimes). I don't think that a bit of relatively arcane hockey knowledge should be a requirement for someone to make better draft choices.

Pre-draft knowledge of signability (for all players, not just draftees) is really something that the user needs, but I do like the idea of adding a bit of 'flavour' with a post-draft report-- maybe even add some various lines that might reflect whether the game (in the guise of the "scouting community") thinks you may have taken a player too early, or lucked out and taken a player later than expected, given their hidden potential ratings.

However, I think it's important not to let the KHL-NHL thing distract from the fact that this also applies to all the other European nations and players, including sure-fire NHLers.

There is roughly 210 men drafted every NHL year. We are dealing with a small handful that may actually be effected. I understand some frustration with it, but simply taking one extra step for if you are to see if a foreigner is sign somewhere else should not be that hard to do.

That being said, it is something we are looking at changing for FHM3. Some occasional frustration will likely still occur.