Terrible roster AI management

[jwr38]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Just thinking, may this be rather an issue with scouting than the AI? Maybe the scout who generated those ratings is crap...

fair enough but since I have scouted no one .... and I have no job with any team (you know a AI control league simmed into the future) and the teams are still having 18 year olds as backup goalies .... lots of right wings 6!!!! signed in one season ..... na I think it is more than just a bloody scouting issue

oh just to add. T. Burt, the top free agent there ... has won the save percentage award twice ... and still has great ratings. Not signed ... why? ... because teams have signed crappy goalies to 5 million dollar deals long term. Here we have Cam Ward ... I mean



great rookie year then fell off the cliff .... but signed to 5 million ... with another team



which the computer then traded for ...



and here is the player the traded away to get their old goalie back ... who has some of the worst save % in game. Not to mention that this player wasn't even the starter for the minor teams for the last two years ... then being the goalie of the year. That's like Jim Carey




These are major game play issues that a game costing 36 dollars should not have.

[Shreddyg1]

The same issues are happening in my historical season, the releasing of young players with high potential. I wanted the players to go to their real teams. Maybe I need to start a new saved game, but it seems like the issue hasn't been fixed.

[AaronV]

This is not something that will be fixed over night. This will take adjusting over months if not years before it gets better but even then it will never be perfect.

For anyone that has ever played any management sim that has always been the weak spot is AI management, it will never be as smart as a person. I have never found a sim that managed all that well and wasn't easy to beat without house rules and don't expect this one to be any better for at least a year.

I like this Hockey sim, definitely the best one out there but its in its infancy and will take time to get to where it needs to be.

[jwr38]

Originally Posted by AaronV

This is not something that will be fixed over night. This will take adjusting over months if not years before it gets better but even then it will never be perfect.

For anyone that has ever played any management sim that has always been the weak spot is AI management, it will never be as smart as a person. I have never found a sim that managed all that well and wasn't easy to beat without house rules and don't expect this one to be any better for at least a year.

I like this Hockey sim, definitely the best one out there but its in its infancy and will take time to get to where it needs to be.

But this is a single player game. Not a multi player game. Now I am sure you have brought many games in your life and you will have noticed that there are many polished games for the 19.99 mark. This game is going for 36 dollars therefore I expect it to have some polish.

Currently the AI is not even close to being good enough for single player. There are basic errors that any test program should have spotted. The fantasy league structure is based off growing your players and team. This does not work.

Now I agree there is a game in there and that is why I have posted, not just saying the AI is terrible, but with pictures so the developers might spot that there is an issue and fix it. I want to play the game. I don't want to pay 36 euros and wait another few years.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by jwr38

But this is a single player game. Not a multi player game. Now I am sure you have brought many games in your life and you will have noticed that there are many polished games for the 19.99 mark. This game is going for 36 dollars therefore I expect it to have some polish.

Currently the AI is not even close to being good enough for single player. There are basic errors that any test program should have spotted. The fantasy league structure is based off growing your players and team. This does not work.

Now I agree there is a game in there and that is why I have posted, not just saying the AI is terrible, but with pictures so the developers might spot that there is an issue and fix it. I want to play the game. I don't want to pay 36 euros and wait another few years.

Roster AI is indeed very hard to get right, it is an area which will be constantly improved over the years. Please remember this is version 2 of FHM, with just 2 patches released. The development team is working hard to improve the game and AI and will continue to do so in the future

Regarding your topic, it's always easy to pick AI errors on the surface, but there was always a good reason why the AI did behave the way it did. Maybe the scout was off, maybe the way stats were evaluated were different than in your opinion, maybe financial considerations led to the decision and so on... heck, I can point you to tons of weird real life moves. This isn't meant to be an excuse, as certainly AI will always be weak compared to human skills, but still you get the point...

And regarding "other games for $19.99", I am not aware of a single one in that price range I would call polished in the sports genre.

[NolaSola7]

This is a very fair response..... It's called 'artificial' intelligence for a reason... not because it can do things on it's own, but because it follows formulas all the time which tell it ...

so the reasons are there ... it works in that way..... and in real sports... the reasoning is not always clear, and sometimes it's emotional....

an some advice further ..Use your imaginations some time....

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Roster AI is indeed very hard to get right, it is an area which will be constantly improved over the years. Please remember this is version 2 of FHM, with just 2 patches released. The development team is working hard to improve the game and AI and will continue to do so in the future

Regarding your topic, it's always easy to pick AI errors on the surface, but there was always a good reason why the AI did behave the way it did. Maybe the scout was off, maybe the way stats were evaluated were different than in your opinion, maybe financial considerations led to the decision and so on... heck, I can point you to tons of weird real life moves. This isn't meant to be an excuse, as certainly AI will always be weak compared to human skills, but still you get the point...

And regarding "other games for $19.99", I am not aware of a single one in that price range I would call polished in the sports genre.

[tarashnat]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Roster AI is indeed very hard to get right, it is an area which will be constantly improved over the years.

<snip>

Regarding your topic, it's always easy to pick AI errors on the surface, but there was always a good reason why the AI did behave the way it did. Maybe the scout was off, maybe the way stats were evaluated were different than in your opinion, maybe financial considerations led to the decision and so on... heck, I can point you to tons of weird real life moves. This isn't meant to be an excuse, as certainly AI will always be weak compared to human skills, but still you get the point...

<snip>

Markus,

Thanks for replying. Yes, some of us realize that the AI is not easy to program. Hopefully, these reports will help the development team focus on the weak points to make the FHM franchise a better experience. There seems to be some problem with teams evaluating the talent they have both subjectively and objectively with regards to other teams' talent. There have been suggestions made of the AI staff reporting on a team's strengths and weaknesses. This would be great if the coach and assistant coaches gave the GM this sort of report. This could also be the framework for the AI to make roster moves based on this sort of framework. An organization depth chart can go a long way to helping the AI and the player manage their organizations.

Most games of this nature are single player affairs, and the AI is a key factor in the acceptance of the game. In a graphics intensive game, the AI is obviously not the main focus. With FHM being a text-based sim, the AI is more visible and assumed to be a higher priority.

A weakness is that the manual doesn't touch upon any topics with regard to gameplay. It just briefly touches upon what the UI elements do, but doesn't address how to accomplish anything in a game sense. For example, How does a Draft work? How to go about making a trade? How to compare two players?

This makes it seem like the software was put together without any idea how a player would approach it as a game. I'm sure the various subsystems were well thought out, but their interactions were probably not that well integrated. I think that this is where the focus needs to be.

Also, part of the problem may be in bugs in the finance area of the game. I have reported a few issues of where the Cap Space number reported in two different areas of the game are wildly different. If the AI thinks it is in Cap trouble, when it is not, it may make weird decisions.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Taras

[JeffR]

Originally Posted by Shreddyg1

The same issues are happening in my historical season, the releasing of young players with high potential. I wanted the players to go to their real teams. Maybe I need to start a new saved game, but it seems like the issue hasn't been fixed.

There was a separate issue in the historical game that was causing the AI to release players, often young, high-potential ones, at a particular point in certain years. Should be fixed in the next update, I couldn't find any instances of it in the test I ran a couple of days ago.

[JeffR]

Originally Posted by jwr38

Now I agree there is a game in there and that is why I have posted, not just saying the AI is terrible, but with pictures so the developers might spot that there is an issue and fix it. I want to play the game. I don't want to pay 36 euros and wait another few years.

The pictures are useful, but we really need a broader picture of what's going on. Could you upload the save so we can take a look at it? Instructions here, or you can put it on a filesharing site like filedropper.com or dropbox and PM me the link.

[Alessandro]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

And regarding "other games for $19.99", I am not aware of a single one in that price range I would call polished in the sports genre.

Well Markus, let's be honest. I have the greatest respect of you and your work, and as far as know, I prefer FHM to EHM (no one would even believe it if you ask around). But EHM is a great game, and costs even less than 19.99. My intent is not to discuss your pricing policy, it's not my task and I got the game for free as I do research for the game, yet I think that that phrase is something that it would have been better if you didn't type it.

Of course, the AI roster is something that will never be perfect and we, the players, have to realize it. In EHM and in FHM.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Alessandro

Well Markus, let's be honest. I have the greatest respect of you and your work, and as far as know, I prefer FHM to EHM (no one would even believe it if you ask around). But EHM is a great game, and costs even less than 19.99. My intent is not to discuss your pricing policy, it's not my task and I got the game for free as I do research for the game, yet I think that that phrase is something that it would have been better if you didn't type it.

Of course, the AI roster is something that will never be perfect and we, the players, have to realize it. In EHM and in FHM.

Well, then let's agree to disagree. I'd never call a game that is still in early access (for good reason) "polished". For me that is still a beta. Once it is in final release state, I may of course change my mind

Riz and the SI guys are great... I mean, I have worked for and with them and still consider them to be friends. So, no harm, no foul.

Alright, back to topic...

[jwr38]

Originally Posted by JeffR

The pictures are useful, but we really need a broader picture of what's going on. Could you upload the save so we can take a look at it? Instructions here, or you can put it on a filesharing site like filedropper.com or dropbox and PM me the link.

sure thing, if you would tell me where the save file is on a mac. I tried to go into steam and local files but not there. When I was putting pictures in I remember needing a different location ... which I now have forgotten where that was.

I understand that computer AI is hard to get working well. Of course I and everyone else here understand that this is your second version of the game, but I personally couldn't care less. If you are telling your customers that the AI will be funky for a few years until you really have it sorted good enough then as a customer I won't be buying for a few years. I don't believe that is what you are really saying, but as a customer who has paid at a price where quality is expected and after the last version, I do feel it is in my right to make sure I push for a game that is better than all those other sport sims out there.

This is a single player game so I expect that this area to be some of the most worked on. Roster management and lines/tactics are the bread and butter of sport sims. IF they don't function clearly then people will come in and try to help point out the clear faults.

Please take a look into the delay of contracts for AI teams. See where I had one team that had 6 right wings signed in one year? I believe this comes from the computer waiting for the contracts and the players all say yes at the same time and the computer can't now turn them down.

Overall I am happy that the developers have seen this as an issue. I am willing to help in any way I can and I hope I strong criticism isn't taken too negatively but as a challenge to improve.

[jwr38]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Regarding your topic, it's always easy to pick AI errors on the surface, but there was always a good reason why the AI did behave the way it did. Maybe the scout was off, maybe the way stats were evaluated were different than in your opinion, maybe financial considerations led to the decision and so on... heck, I can point you to tons of weird real life moves. This isn't meant to be an excuse, as certainly AI will always be weak compared to human skills, but still you get the point....

well then you haven't read what I pointed out which is a concern. I understand isolated cases where players are released but ..... Like I said with large roster size with 18 year olds on roster but not playing. No rookie winners developing. players on their 2-3 contracts being released. Older players who were not developed by game being the best players (33 years old in last save), Only developed players that can win scoring title unless a player has a random great season before sucking again, over signing players on one position while already having lots of forwards. This is not isolated areas but the norm. That is an issue that I am trying to point out .... not some scout thinking differently

[JeffR]

Originally Posted by jwr38

sure thing, if you would tell me where the save file is on a mac. I tried to go into steam and local files but not there. When I was putting pictures in I remember needing a different location ... which I now have forgotten where that was.

If you go to the start screen, then preferences - troubleshooting, there'll be a button labeled "Open customizable data folder". You'll see a saved_game folder in there when you do that, open that one and you'll see all your saved games folders in there. Just zip/compress the one you want to send.