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Old 02-06-2020, 10:39 AM   #1
Cobra Mgr
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Idea.....I need pros & cons

This literally just sprung in my head so I haven't weighed the good & bad in my mind. But PocketsAintFull's comment in the MLB 2020 thread sparked this in my brain.

What would be the pros and cons of having a salary cap that did not include the salaries of players out of your minor league system? Or in the case of the NBA/NFL, players you drafted? You could spend how ever much you want on homegrown talent, but free agents are limited.
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Old 02-06-2020, 10:45 AM   #2
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Teams would hoard prospects more than they already do, and if you think teams exploit service time loopholes now...
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Old 02-06-2020, 10:46 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr View Post
This literally just sprung in my head so I haven't weighed the good & bad in my mind. But PocketsAintFull's comment in the MLB 2020 thread sparked this in my brain.

What would be the pros and cons of having a salary cap that did not include the salaries of players out of your minor league system? Or in the case of the NBA/NFL, players you drafted? You could spend how ever much you want on homegrown talent, but free agents are limited.
I like that rule in the NBA, so it could work in theory. Baseball minor leagues are a more complex thing though. Perhaps ‘service years’?
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Old 02-06-2020, 10:49 AM   #4
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Teams would hoard prospects more than they already do, and if you think teams exploit service time loopholes now...
Fair point, too.
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Old 02-06-2020, 10:51 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by eriqjaffe View Post
Teams would hoard prospects more than they already do,
I don't see that as a problem. Something I built and helped grow myself is more valuable to me.


Quote:
and if you think teams exploit service time loopholes now...
I don't see this as a problem either. Exploit may have a negative connotation, but there is nothing wrong with it in every case.
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Old 02-06-2020, 10:53 AM   #6
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I like that rule in the NBA, so it could work in theory. Baseball minor leagues are a more complex thing though. Perhaps ‘service years’?
What makes it more complex?
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Old 02-06-2020, 10:53 AM   #7
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Ties players to the team that drafted them. Gives the players less freedom

This is a "pro" to the fans and owners
And a "con" to the players
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Old 02-06-2020, 10:57 AM   #8
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Ties players to the team that drafted them. Gives the players less freedom

This is a "pro" to the fans and owners
And a "con" to the players
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Old 02-06-2020, 11:09 AM   #9
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What makes it more complex?
I suppose I mean that there’s a lot more goes on in players’ pre-MLB careers, like trades. So how long would a player need to be in a team’s feeder system?
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Old 02-06-2020, 11:55 AM   #10
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I suppose I mean that there’s a lot more goes on in players’ pre-MLB careers, like trades. So how long would a player need to be in a team’s feeder system?
Those details could be worked out. Someone is going to have to give up something to get something. I'd just like to see some real incentive for players to stay long term and for teams to keep players together long term.

Take the Chiefs. Mahomes is going to get his money. But that is probably going to mean some of his weapons are going to put the Chiefs over the cap if they keep them. KC may not want Sammy Watkins or Kelce to go elsewhere, they may want to give them their $ feeling they are worth it and earned it. But neither may have a choice. In my eye, something is wrong with that. The salary cap in that case means developing a bunch of stars is just going to benefit someone else. Another franchise that just throws money at the problem.

There should be a way for a team to develop thru the draft & minors and get the full benefit from their hard work if they want to. The rules shouldn't see a team that builds a player from a prospect to a superstar and then "punish" them as if they did something wrong. That's the objective of the minors & draft.
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Old 02-06-2020, 02:26 PM   #11
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There should be a way for a team to develop thru the draft & minors and get the full benefit from their hard work if they want to.
There is
Do away with the draft and have players be free agents.
Teams will then pay players what they think they are worth instead of paying them well below what everyone knows they are worth.



Quote:
The rules shouldn't see a team that builds a player from a prospect to a superstar and then "punish" them as if they did something wrong.
The owners wanted these rules.
They punish the players, by keeping salaries low, way more than they punish the teams


Quote:
That's the objective of the minors & draft.
No
The objectives here are the same; to lower costs for the owners.
Players who are drafted have zero leverage to negotiate.
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Old 02-06-2020, 02:33 PM   #12
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I don't see that as a problem. Something I built and helped grow myself is more valuable to me.


I don't see this as a problem either. Exploit may have a negative connotation, but there is nothing wrong with it in every case.
The problem is that you are providing incentive for teams to not put their best players on the field which is bad when you are an entertainment product and fans want to see the best players.
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Old 02-06-2020, 03:44 PM   #13
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The problem is that you are providing incentive for teams to not put their best players on the field which is bad when you are an entertainment product and fans want to see the best players.
How so?
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Old 02-06-2020, 04:42 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr View Post
This literally just sprung in my head so I haven't weighed the good & bad in my mind. But PocketsAintFull's comment in the MLB 2020 thread sparked this in my brain.

What would be the pros and cons of having a salary cap that did not include the salaries of players out of your minor league system? Or in the case of the NBA/NFL, players you drafted? You could spend how ever much you want on homegrown talent, but free agents are limited.
Fantastic idea. But I have heard similar suggestions before. I thought it was genius. For the NFL, apply a cap hit reduction for drafted players for as long as they remain on the team. As an example, You draft a player, his hit is 50% against the cap. Or whatever you want it to be. He could still test the market, but it gives the drafting team an advantage.

This would put a huge emphasis on the draft. No team is given an advantage. If you draft well you can build and maintain a good team.
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Old 02-06-2020, 08:22 PM   #15
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I don't see this as a problem either. Exploit may have a negative connotation, but there is nothing wrong with it in every case.

Exploit ALWAYS is negative when its applied to treatment of people. ALWAYS. However, people are comfortable with exploitation of groups they don't like or who they consider undeserving of fair and equal treatment. Would that be what you're referring to when you say there's nothing wrong with it some of the time?
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Old 02-06-2020, 08:31 PM   #16
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Take the Chiefs. Mahomes is going to get his money. But that is probably going to mean some of his weapons are going to put the Chiefs over the cap if they keep them. KC may not want Sammy Watkins or Kelce to go elsewhere, they may want to give them their $ feeling they are worth it and earned it. But neither may have a choice. In my eye, something is wrong with that. The salary cap in that case means developing a bunch of stars is just going to benefit someone else. Another franchise that just throws money at the problem.
You've identified a big problem with your plan. Reducing the effects of the cap makes the big money teams stronger.
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Old 02-06-2020, 11:21 PM   #17
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Those details could be worked out. Someone is going to have to give up something to get something. I'd just like to see some real incentive for players to stay long term and for teams to keep players together long term.

Take the Chiefs. Mahomes is going to get his money. But that is probably going to mean some of his weapons are going to put the Chiefs over the cap if they keep them. KC may not want Sammy Watkins or Kelce to go elsewhere, they may want to give them their $ feeling they are worth it and earned it. But neither may have a choice. In my eye, something is wrong with that. The salary cap in that case means developing a bunch of stars is just going to benefit someone else. Another franchise that just throws money at the problem.

There should be a way for a team to develop thru the draft & minors and get the full benefit from their hard work if they want to. The rules shouldn't see a team that builds a player from a prospect to a superstar and then "punish" them as if they did something wrong. That's the objective of the minors & draft.

Sounds to me like you just don't want free agency. If you're drafted by a team then you're stuck with that team unless they release/trade you


Am I somehow misinterpreting it?


Also .... "The salary cap in that case means developing a bunch of stars is just going to benefit someone else", Watkins wasn't drafted by KC, so maybe you meant Hill?

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Old 02-06-2020, 11:22 PM   #18
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Exploit ALWAYS is negative when its applied to treatment of people. ALWAYS. However, people are comfortable with exploitation of groups they don't like or who they consider undeserving of fair and equal treatment. Would that be what you're referring to when you say there's nothing wrong with it some of the time?
I don't think it is a bad thing in this instance. There has to be a rule of when a player is eligible for FA. Is it going to be 5 months, 5 weeks, 5 years?Whenever it is, the rule is going to be the rule. That's not exploiting the player. That is exploiting the rule that is the same for everybody. A prosecutor is not exploiting a defendant if he tries him as an adult if he is 18 yrs and one day, but not if he is 17 & 364 days. The line is the line.
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Old 02-06-2020, 11:24 PM   #19
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Sounds to me like you just don't want free agency. If you're drafted by a team then you're stuck with that team unless they release/trade you


Am I somehow misinterpreting it?
Right
His last paragraph gives it away

A team getting a player for a fraction of their value for six years is getting "punished" if they choose not to pay them their market value in free agency
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Old 02-06-2020, 11:33 PM   #20
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Sounds to me like you just don't want free agency. If you're drafted by a team then you're stuck with that team unless they release/trade you


Am I somehow misinterpreting it?


Also .... "The salary cap in that case means developing a bunch of stars is just going to benefit someone else", Watkins wasn't drafted by KC, so maybe you meant Hill?
No, far from it. I would never get rid of FA. The salary cap wasn't instituted to restrict players from shopping their talents. It is to keep the richer franchises from outbidding the rest of the league & "stealing" all the talent.

What I'm proposing doesn't mean the end of FA. The salary cap can still be there to keep the Steinbrenners from buying titles and dominating the FA landscape. But, in theory, it will allow give franchises incentive to keep developed talent without fear it will restrict them from filling other spots on the team thru FA. Or feel they have to other solid players go to retain a potential superstar.
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