Types of Bullpen Pitchers?

[daves]

Can someone explain the roles of all the relief pitcher roles. I tend to use the traditional Closer - Setup - Middle and Long relievers. But I wonder if I should have a stopper or an opener or follower? I am just not sure what they represent.

[OMGPuppies]

Originally Posted by daves

Can someone explain the roles of all the relief pitcher roles. I tend to use the traditional Closer - Setup - Middle and Long relievers. But I wonder if I should have a stopper or an opener or follower? I am just not sure what they represent.

A stopper is a guy, like John Hader was last year. They come in when the games is close and on the line. Very important, high leverage situations. Openers are relievers who start games by pitching only an inning or two. Followers are starting pitchers that you set to come in right after the openers.

[daves]

Originally Posted by OMGPuppies

A stopper is a guy, like John Hader was last year. They come in when the games is close and on the line. Very important, high leverage situations. Openers are relievers who start games by pitching only an inning or two. Followers are starting pitchers that you set to come in right after the openers.

Thanks. I wonder how you setup an Opener and Follower. Do you eliminate your rotation?

[One Great Matrix]

You can right-click to get to Game Strategy (Set Game Strategy)...then you can mark them as an opener or a follower, I suppose set them as one or the other whether you use this method or not, and then openers drag over to the rotation and followers to the pen.

I'm not sure you always get exactly what you want, the AI/program has to interpret your input sort of...but I've had some success with pitching guys about the way I wanted to by playing around with it, you sort of have to successfully bridge the gaps between your concept & the way the program reacts to your input.

[Goliathus]

Stopper looks like pre-1989 closer to me - so, a fireman - they come in to put out any risky situations in a close game. I used it on many of my pack teams when I only have 1-2 relievers who vastly outclass my others, like 80+ OVR vs all my others in the 60-70 range. In those cases, I slot one of them as my Closer and has the other one as the Stopper.


Opener into Follower I am skeptical. I don't see much purpose for that unless I can mess with my opponent fielding a LHP lineup into my RHP follower. But that's impossible because the game has the safeguard "if facing an opener" option in the global strategy UI. And I think the opener are always pulled after 1-2 innings. I would experiment with O/F strategy more if I can keep the opener in as the SP. I will lineup 5 left-handed opener and then 5 right-handed follower and play the guessing game.


And here's an actual team running opener/follower:

[One Great Matrix]

You can change pitch count on the same page that you set a pitcher as opener or follower, too... And lock them in, I think as either starter only or reliever only if you'd like.

2 more variables if you want to try and further instruct the AI on how to manage pitchers in-game.

[Goliathus]

Interesting, but wouldn't the AI still pull reliever faster than starter by default? I felt like the AI manager sees opener as reliever so they will not give them "starter frames" even with "slow substitution for relievers" set to max. But I guess I should just try it and find out instead of just speculating.

[daves]

Originally Posted by Goliathus

Stopper looks like pre-1989 closer to me - so, a fireman - they come in to put out any risky situations in a close game. I used it on many of my pack teams when I only have 1-2 relievers who vastly outclass my others, like 80+ OVR vs all my others in the 60-70 range. In those cases, I slot one of them as my Closer and has the other one as the Stopper.


Opener into Follower I am skeptical. I don't see much purpose for that unless I can mess with my opponent fielding a LHP lineup into my RHP follower. But that's impossible because the game has the safeguard "if facing an opener" option in the global strategy UI. And I think the opener are always pulled after 1-2 innings. I would experiment with O/F strategy more if I can keep the opener in as the SP. I will lineup 5 left-handed opener and then 5 right-handed follower and play the guessing game.


And here's an actual team running opener/follower:

Thanks. I guess I was doing this differently by having my lefties start with a pitch count of 40 and a quick hook. The problem is that I need many pitchers! PT pitchers tire quickly.



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[Goliathus]

That one can be more effective because it ignores the "if facing an opener" strategy and your opponents are guaranteed to be running a LHP lineup into your RHP(assuming your bullpen long relief are indeed RHP). The problem with this approach is that the system recognize your RHP is a reliever and he will be consuming his stamina in reliever fashion, which is much faster than a starter. It is unlikely for your long relief/pseudo-starter to throw more than 5 innings - best I see they do without getting pulled is 3-4 on a long run - I would assume.

I would assume the Opener/Follower rules prevents that from happening. The followers are treated as SP by the system and utilize his stamina in SP fashion. Looking at the team in my screenshot, their followers are able to finish the game pitching 8.0 if they pitch well. But O/F means your opponent can easily lessen the impact of your approach with "if facing an opener" which the default option is to put a lineup against the follower.

[daves]

Originally Posted by Goliathus

Stopper looks like pre-1989 closer to me - so, a fireman - they come in to put out any risky situations in a close game. I used it on many of my pack teams when I only have 1-2 relievers who vastly outclass my others, like 80+ OVR vs all my others in the 60-70 range. In those cases, I slot one of them as my Closer and has the other one as the Stopper.


Opener into Follower I am skeptical. I don't see much purpose for that unless I can mess with my opponent fielding a LHP lineup into my RHP follower. But that's impossible because the game has the safeguard "if facing an opener" option in the global strategy UI. And I think the opener are always pulled after 1-2 innings. I would experiment with O/F strategy more if I can keep the opener in as the SP. I will lineup 5 left-handed opener and then 5 right-handed follower and play the guessing game.


And here's an actual team running opener/follower:

Will try this next week. thanks

[daves]

The Opener and Follower did not work according to plan. I tried having a lefty opener and a righty follower. In doing this I preferred the opposing team to use their starting lineup against left handed pitchers than bring in the righty follower after an inning or two. But the other team used their lineup against right handed pitchers instead. Thus, this strategy was un- affective.

[chazzycat]

Now you've got me thinking. I feel like there still could be a benefit to using openers/followers, especially for parks like mine with a huge lefty/righty split (favors lefties).

Consider: in important home games (playoffs) I always prefer to throw a LHP. The main reason being, I want to force as many RHB into the opponent's lineup as possible, putting them at a disadvantage.

By using an RHP opener and LHP follower, I would still have the overall advantage of getting the RHB into the lineup. But also, for those couple innings at the beginning of the game, while I'm throwing a RHP, I would be getting a DOUBLE bonus thanks to the park factors and handedness penalties combining.

Whereas with the traditional approach, I'd be bringing in RHP in the late innings to face their RHB. But since it's late in the game, the AI would be much more likely to simply pinch hit a LHB. In that situation THEY would be the ones getting the double bonus of LH park factor + favorable handedness.

I might try this.

[daves]

Originally Posted by chazzycat

Now you've got me thinking. I feel like there still could be a benefit to using openers/followers, especially for parks like mine with a huge lefty/righty split (favors lefties).

Consider: in important home games (playoffs) I always prefer to throw a LHP. The main reason being, I want to force as many RHB into the opponent's lineup as possible, putting them at a disadvantage.

By using an RHP opener and LHP follower, I would still have the overall advantage of getting the RHB into the lineup. But also, for those couple innings at the beginning of the game, while I'm throwing a RHP, I would be getting a DOUBLE bonus thanks to the park factors and handedness penalties combining.

Whereas with the traditional approach, I'd be bringing in RHP in the late innings to face their RHB. But since it's late in the game, the AI would be much more likely to simply pinch hit a LHB. In that situation THEY would be the ones getting the double bonus of LH park factor + favorable handedness.

I might try this.

You have to make your openers as starters not relief. I had to edit my player to be an opener under player strategy.

[chazzycat]

really? I thought the "starter" in that setup would be the follower, no? I have always seen the followers listed in the rotation, not the openers.

At least, that was what I was envisioning. Starting the game with a RHP reliever to pitch 1-2 innings, "followed" by the starting pitcher for a longer stint.

[waittilnextyear]

Originally Posted by daves

The Opener and Follower did not work according to plan. I tried having a lefty opener and a righty follower. In doing this I preferred the opposing team to use their starting lineup against left handed pitchers than bring in the righty follower after an inning or two. But the other team used their lineup against right handed pitchers instead. Thus, this strategy was un- affective.

If you want to play the matchups, you don't want to do Opener/Follower actually. The reason is most of your opponents will have the "base lineup on likely follower" box checked.

Do this instead.

Plug in whichever lefty you'd like to "open" for you into the rotation and set him to be the starter. Give the lefty pitcher an appropriate pitch count (10-15 pitches if you just want him in there for an inning or so), but don't designate him as opener.

Then, put whichever righty/righties you'd like to come in later as long relievers in the bullpen. If you'd like to use one pitcher specifically, then put only that pitcher in as long reliever. You can adjust how long this righty pitcher goes using the player strategy slider settings, but it also depends on pitcher stamina, how the game is going, and some of your other strategy settings.

This is the workaround for when your opponent is probably basing his lineups on your follower instead of your opener.

[chazzycat]

Originally Posted by waittilnextyear

Then, put whichever righty/righties you'd like to come in later as long relievers in the bullpen.

But doesn't this mean they are considered a reliever for stamina purposes? Meaning they are more likely to throw 3 innings or so, not 6+ like you want from a follower?

[waittilnextyear]

Also, per Matt Arnold there's 2 different ways you can input the Opener/Follower thing if you want to use it.

You can put openers in the rotation/followers in the bullpen and this gives you control of which one opens in any given start.

You can also designate openers in the bullpen/followers in the rotation and the game will sort of randomly choose which one opens if you have more than one.

The issue is this strategy only makes sense if your opponent is basing their lineup on your opener, but they usually don't.

[waittilnextyear]

Originally Posted by chazzycat

But doesn't this mean they are considered a reliever for stamina purposes? Meaning they are more likely to throw 3 innings or so, not 6+ like you want from a follower?

You're probably right there. I think an "opener" gets more of the starter treatment. I feel like I've seen long relievers with high stamina (converted starters) still pitch 4+ innings though.

I think the crux of the issue is that you're almost never gaining the matchup advantage with how people counter the Opener/Follower strategy.

[chazzycat]

Originally Posted by waittilnextyear

I think the crux of the issue is that you're almost never gaining the matchup advantage with how people counter the Opener/Follower strategy.

I get that. It's not the huge advantage it would be if openers tricked the system into everyone starting the wrong lineups. But I think it could still provide a small edge for me in home games because of my park factors. Too much micromanagement means I'll probably only do it in the playoffs though.

[chazzycat]

I've got a perfect opportunity coming up in 10 minutes. My opponent has 5 RHB at the top of his lineup vs. lefties. Going to give Johan Santana the follower role for this game and let JJ Putz (nice splits vs righties) open the game.