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Old 08-26-2019, 10:33 PM   #21
chazzycat
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LOL that didn't work at all. I had both roles defined, but it didn't do anything. I guess it was my strategy slider for openers set to "none". Oh well. Will keep an eye out for another opportunity
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Old 08-27-2019, 12:41 PM   #22
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Alright, I got the thing to work. It was the "use openers" slider. So here was the situation with my opponent's lineups:





So I definitely want to trigger the lineup vs lefties, to get more righties in the lineup (remember my AVG park factors are minimum for righties). But you also notice that lineup starts with 5 RHB. So it makes sense to open up with a righty opener. So that's what I did. I had Garland Braxton (LHP) stay listed in the rotation, but set to follower. Lee Smith stayed in the bullpen and was set to opener. The results:



Now obviously this is just one game, but it worked exactly like I hoped. Lee Smith got through those first five batters without giving up any damage. The AI didn't pinch hit since it was the first inning, and I got the favorable matchups. My lefty follower came in and lasted six innings, long enough to get the game to my stoppers, who closed it out. Could not have gone better if I managed the game myself.

Last edited by chazzycat; 08-27-2019 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 08-27-2019, 12:56 PM   #23
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Looks like the opener/follower can work pretty nice on a small scale if you're watching the matchups. I found it to not work as intended on a large passive scale though, so it's not for me as I'm not around for most of the games.

I tried 3 lefty followers (within a 5-man rotation), with 5 righty middle relievers available as openers. I'm not sure what went wrong, but it was a disaster and my entire staff and bullpen were exhausted. I had starters beginning at 70% stamina for some reason, which you'd normally never-ever see with a 5-man rotation.
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Old 08-27-2019, 01:02 PM   #24
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Agreed. I think it's best deployed tactically, rather than strategically. A good tool for the playoffs, mostly.
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Old 08-27-2019, 02:23 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by waittilnextyear View Post
If you want to play the matchups, you don't want to do Opener/Follower actually. The reason is most of your opponents will have the "base lineup on likely follower" box checked.

Do this instead.

Plug in whichever lefty you'd like to "open" for you into the rotation and set him to be the starter. Give the lefty pitcher an appropriate pitch count (10-15 pitches if you just want him in there for an inning or so), but don't designate him as opener.

Then, put whichever righty/righties you'd like to come in later as long relievers in the bullpen. If you'd like to use one pitcher specifically, then put only that pitcher in as long reliever. You can adjust how long this righty pitcher goes using the player strategy slider settings, but it also depends on pitcher stamina, how the game is going, and some of your other strategy settings.

This is the workaround for when your opponent is probably basing his lineups on your follower instead of your opener.
Do you still designate followers? Should they be middle or long relivers?
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Old 08-27-2019, 02:46 PM   #26
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Since the default strategy setting is "base lineup on likely follower", I don't see how opener/follower provides any advantage at all. The only possible gain is to get a platoon advantage in the first inning. For that, you spend a reliever that won't be available for a key situation late in the game.
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Old 08-27-2019, 02:54 PM   #27
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The only possible gain is to get a platoon advantage in the first inning. For that, you spend a reliever that won't be available for a key situation late in the game.
That is still an advantage, IMO. Moreso if L/R park factor shenanigans are involved. Every tiny bit helps.

Not sure I follow the logic about "spending a reliever". Why would it matter if he pitches the 1st inning instead of the sixth? The starter would presumably last an inning longer with an opener, removing the need for that reliever.
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Old 08-27-2019, 05:41 PM   #28
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That is still an advantage, IMO. Moreso if L/R park factor shenanigans are involved. Every tiny bit helps.

Not sure I follow the logic about "spending a reliever". Why would it matter if he pitches the 1st inning instead of the sixth? The starter would presumably last an inning longer with an opener, removing the need for that reliever.
While "5 and Dive" starters are common and acceptable in the current MLB environment, this is not what most players expect from their staffs. As such, openers, not unlike 3 true outcome players, are a better fit for the real life meta than the game meta.
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Old 08-27-2019, 05:52 PM   #29
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While "5 and Dive" starters are common and acceptable in the current MLB environment, this is not what most players expect from their staffs. As such, openers, not unlike 3 true outcome players, are a better fit for the real life meta than the game meta.
I agree, for the regular season it really doesn't make much sense. Like you said openers are kind of designed to help stretch the weakest parts of the rotation. In general in PT you don't try to stretch your weak starters...you get better starters.

I'm using it in a completely different way, just to get a couple extra at bats with the combined handedness & park factor advantages. In the perfect playoffs competing against megawhales....you bet your a$$$ I'm looking for any tiny little advantage.
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Old 08-27-2019, 06:00 PM   #30
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That is still an advantage, IMO. Moreso if L/R park factor shenanigans are involved. Every tiny bit helps.

Not sure I follow the logic about "spending a reliever". Why would it matter if he pitches the 1st inning instead of the sixth? The starter would presumably last an inning longer with an opener, removing the need for that reliever.
The point is that he can't pitch both. So when should he be used to best advantage? He is likely guaranteed a platoon advantage in the first, but he may also be used with a platoon advantage later in the game. In the first, he is entering in a low leverage situation, where he might be better used in a high leverage situation later. If there is an advantage either way, I agree that it is tiny. Therefore, not worth shuffling your staff around IMO.
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Old 08-27-2019, 06:05 PM   #31
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The point is that he can't pitch both. So when should he be used to best advantage? He is likely guaranteed a platoon advantage in the first, but he may also be used with a platoon advantage later in the game.
Later in the game the AI will pinch hit. In the first inning, they won't. So putting the RHP in the first inning guarantees the platoon advantage (with the right lineups of course).


But yes it is a small advantage. Most likely just a couple extra at bats per game.
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Old 08-27-2019, 08:14 PM   #32
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Do you still designate followers? Should they be middle or long relivers?
With my method (which is different than what chazzycat is using), I don't set anyone on my staff as opener or follower. The guy I want coming in to pitch later I set as long reliever.
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Old 08-28-2019, 05:29 PM   #33
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But doesn't this mean they are considered a reliever for stamina purposes? Meaning they are more likely to throw 3 innings or so, not 6+ like you want from a follower?
There's been some discussion on the Discord today about this point, and I may have been wrong. There seems to be some credible evidence that a starter, set to RP and designated as follower, maintains their starter stamina AND gets the stuff bonus from converting the starter to RP.


If this is true, the openers/follower setup could be much more useful than I previously believed. Especially for starters who gain 10+ points of stuff as RP.
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Old 08-28-2019, 05:33 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by chazzycat View Post
There's been some discussion on the Discord today about this point, and I may have been wrong. There seems to be some credible evidence that a starter, set to RP and designated as follower, maintains their starter stamina AND gets the stuff bonus from converting the starter to RP.


If this is true, the openers/follower setup could be much more useful than I previously believed. Especially for starters who gain 10+ points of stuff as RP.
Followers use SP stamina and SP stuff. The stuff value shown is based on what position they're set at, but the stuff used is based on their actual role.
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Old 08-28-2019, 05:36 PM   #35
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well that clears that up! Thanks Matt
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Old 08-28-2019, 05:40 PM   #36
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Just to be clear, it doesn’t matter if the follower is set as a SP with SP stuff or an RP with RP stuff...the follower still gets the SP stuff in either case?
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Old 08-28-2019, 06:43 PM   #37
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Just to be clear, it doesn’t matter if the follower is set as a SP with SP stuff or an RP with RP stuff...the follower still gets the SP stuff in either case?
Yes. Same as regular starters or relievers, what position they're set as has no impact on what stuff rating is used when they appear in games.
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Old 08-29-2019, 12:37 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by chazzycat View Post
There's been some discussion on the Discord today about this point, and I may have been wrong. There seems to be some credible evidence that a starter, set to RP and designated as follower, maintains their starter stamina AND gets the stuff bonus from converting the starter to RP.


If this is true, the openers/follower setup could be much more useful than I previously believed. Especially for starters who gain 10+ points of stuff as RP.
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Followers use SP stamina and SP stuff. The stuff value shown is based on what position they're set at, but the stuff used is based on their actual role.
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well that clears that up! Thanks Matt
So from a strategy point of view...

1. Opener/Follower setup: Main selling point is your designated follower maintains more of a "starter" level of stamina. Follower does not get a stuff boost and opponent's 'base lineup on likely follower' checkbox will usually nullify any major platoon advantages. But, you get a platoon advantage early on (1st/2nd innings).

2. Using RP on a pitch count/starter as long relief (no Opener/Follower designated): Main selling point is you can trick the other team into using the wrong platoon lineup. The starter-come-reliever also gets the stuff boost. But, it may be difficult to get a single un-designated follower to pitch much beyond 3-4 innings without major player strategy intervention/benching other players.

Which arrangement is best depends on what you're trying to accomplish I suppose.
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Old 08-29-2019, 01:20 AM   #39
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Yes. Same as regular starters or relievers, what position they're set as has no impact on what stuff rating is used when they appear in games.
Ignoring openers/followers... when a normal starter is in the bullpen and designated as RP, they can pitch on back to back days as per a normal reliever. However, when the same starter come reliever is in the bullpen but designated as SP, they can essentially only pitch every four to five days just like a normal starter.

Therefore, clearly at an absolute minimum pitching fatigue (how long it takes them to recover between appearances) reflects the SP/RP designation.

I'm also pretty sure (though not 100%) that pitching stamina (how long they can last in a game) also does this... so if RP maybe they could last around 3-4 innings but if SP they could go 6+ IP.

Given that (and the fact that stuff changes not when placing someone in the bullpen, but instead only when you change the designation from SP to RP), I would have also thought that stuff reflected the SP/RP designation for starters in the bullpen so essentially the trade-off is lower stuff, longer stamina, longer recovery vs higher stuff, shorter stamina, shorter recovery.

However, what you're saying suggests my assumptions may be wrong? If so, there's still a trade-off but it then becomes more to do with fatigue and stamina. It would also mean having a starter in the bullpen with a SP designation is more enticing (as they still receive the stuff boost when previously I thought they did not).

Further, if the SP/RP designation makes no difference to stuff and only their role makes the difference, perhaps you should consider adjusting stuff when the role changes rather than when the SP/RP designation changes.
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Old 08-29-2019, 03:12 PM   #40
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So from a strategy point of view...

1. Opener/Follower setup: Main selling point is your designated follower maintains more of a "starter" level of stamina. Follower does not get a stuff boost and opponent's 'base lineup on likely follower' checkbox will usually nullify any major platoon advantages. But, you get a platoon advantage early on (1st/2nd innings).

2. Using RP on a pitch count/starter as long relief (no Opener/Follower designated): Main selling point is you can trick the other team into using the wrong platoon lineup. The starter-come-reliever also gets the stuff boost. But, it may be difficult to get a single un-designated follower to pitch much beyond 3-4 innings without major player strategy intervention/benching other players.

Which arrangement is best depends on what you're trying to accomplish I suppose.
Great summary. The more I think about it, the more enticed I am by option #2. With my park factors, tricking the AI into the wrong lineup could be pretty substantial. Furthermore burning multiple "starters" in a single game shouldn't be the end of the world, since as relievers they would be ready to pitch again in a day or two, not five days. Especially during playoffs with plenty of off days. I already use a starter as long reliever, and can easily see in his game logs, it's no problem pitching back to back days.
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