Random Debut League

[HuachucaThunder]

I usually play historical or fictional leagues. I am going to attempt a Random Debut League. The question I have is how would I get the players from their rookie seasons in the inaugural draft or would they come in that way. I really would not want to have, for example, a 38 year old Hank Aaron as a rookie at the end of his career.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by HuachucaThunder

I usually play historical or fictional leagues. I am going to attempt a Random Debut League. The question I have is how would I get the players from their rookie seasons in the inaugural draft or would they come in that way. I really would not want to have, for example, a 38 year old Hank Aaron as a rookie at the end of his career.

As far as I know there is no way to accomplish that. Having Aaron show up as a 38 year old is just part of the randomness that goes along with random debut. Problem is, if everyone came in at a young age the logjam would ruin the flow of a league.

[HuachucaThunder]

I can see your point. Thanks for your reply.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by HuachucaThunder

I usually play historical or fictional leagues. I am going to attempt a Random Debut League. The question I have is how would I get the players from their rookie seasons in the inaugural draft or would they come in that way. I really would not want to have, for example, a 38 year old Hank Aaron as a rookie at the end of his career.

I could be wrong about this so don't quote me on this. I have heard that if you delete a player from the draft, whether its the Inaugural draft or the Ammy draft. He will reappear later on at some point. I want to say either PStricket or The Wolf has said this, not sure. But I agree 100% with DW. Rogers Hornsby is one of my all time favorite RD players but I tend to always get age 32 or older. I had Baines in his final season, who is my all time favorite player, in a non DH league. I took him as a PH.
With my top 25 league, I imported my 29 all time fav Sox & Cubs players. Thru 5 seasons none of them have appeared in the Ammy Draft. I deleted Maddux & Raines from the inaugural draft but imported the as rookies.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by The Game

I could be wrong about this so don't quote me on this. I have heard that if you delete a player from the draft, whether its the Inaugural draft or the Ammy draft. He will reappear later on at some point. I want to say either PStricket or The Wolf has said this, not sure. But I agree 100% with DW. Rogers Hornsby is one of my all time favorite RD players but I tend to always get age 32 or older. I had Baines in his final season, who is my all time favorite player, in a non DH league. I took him as a PH.
With my top 25 league, I imported my 29 all time fav Sox & Cubs players. Thru 5 seasons none of them have appeared in the Ammy Draft. I deleted Maddux & Raines from the inaugural draft but imported the as rookies.

I've heard what The Game just said too, but I've never tried it or had it confirmed. For me Stan the Man always comes in his 30s. This time around Tris Speaker came in at retirement age.

[VanillaGorilla]

If there is just ONE player you absolutely don't want to have enter as something other than a rookie, and he appears in the inaugural draft as an elder, then just create another league. I know for sure this works.

If you were to remove all great players late in their career that appear in your first draft, you are skewing the start of the league by having no superstars. You are also skewing the league down the road to have disproportionately more stars, if in fact removing the player from the ID results in him appearing later as a rookie. I have never tried this, so I do not know if this is so.

If this is so, it will result in superstars performing closer to the league average due to the artificial influence placed on the pool of players that remain in the 'yet to debut' pool.

In my current league, I posted the names of significant players that entered the league as older players and did not play 10 years in my sim. I include on the list RL HOFers, players who entered the HOF in either of my previous two HOF runs, or guys that mean something to me, personally.

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ml#post3515512

As you can see, the list is pretty lengthy. This league started with 30 teams. If I had started with fewer, the list would have been shorter.

So, if I had purged from the draft all of these names, my talent pool to start would have been skewed. If my pool is skewed randomly, then that is fine. However, if I am making decisions on who comes in and who doesn't, then it is no longer randomness, and randomness alone, that is causing a peculiar skew (which nets outlying results).

If you start a league of 30 teams with a random debut draft, you will expect to get close to 20 HOFers in that draft. You might have one or two of those as rookies, the rest will be older, and some will be much older. It's simply the nature of the beast. And of course, there are many many more great players who are not in the HOF.

As a fan of the game of baseball, you will always have players who pop up as older guys in an inaugural random debut draft who make you say "awww...that sucks!"

Once you run out of RL players, it is best to stop the league. That is because the players generated are not going to be as good as the RL players, and the RL players will dominate. I have consecutive 105 HR seasons from John Mayberry Sr and single season leaderboards filled 1-100 with RL players facing fictional competition for evidence of this.

So, even though you see who comes in at the beginning of your league older, you have no idea who will come in at the end of your league, either.

One player? Redo the draft pool. For me, there are hundreds of players that bum me out by showing up old in the ID. I just accept it as part of the deal, and play on.

Just my thoughts, here.

Whatever is fun for you to do is what you should do.

[olivertheorem]

Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla

Once you run out of RL players, it is best to stop the league. That is because the players generated are not going to be as good as the RL players, and the RL players will dominate. I have consecutive 105 HR seasons from John Mayberry Sr and single season leaderboards filled 1-100 with RL players facing fictional competition for evidence of this.

Do you have any idea why this is so? I've never tried random debut (though I've been thinking about it a lot lately), but it seems to my inexperienced mind that fictional players generated when the real ones run out ought to be roughly equivalent, in the long run. Otherwise, what's the point of the fictional player generation in any play format?

Just asking. There may be a very obvious reason that isn't occurring to me.

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by olivertheorem

Do you have any idea why this is so? I've never tried random debut (though I've been thinking about it a lot lately), but it seems to my inexperienced mind that fictional players generated when the real ones run out ought to be roughly equivalent, in the long run. Otherwise, what's the point of the fictional player generation in any play format?

Just asking. There may be a very obvious reason that isn't occurring to me.

My guess is this: All players in the random debut pool have ML talent (they played in the ML). Only some of the created players will develop into ML talent, most will not. So, instead of having everyone in a new draft pool having ML proficiency, the fictional players, as a whole, do not.

So you wind up with experienced MLers bashing the fictionals into their late 40s.

[The Game]

In my experience fictional players are almost always better then real players. Better defense mostly. I import several real players per year and clone them in my 2 leagues. Very rarely do they win awards. There are exceptions such as Michael Westen's (A-Roid) .385 51 HR 145 RBI Triple Crown. My clone of Mickey Mantle hit 51 HR as a rookie but hit .267 31 Hr 92 RBI this past season. A clone of Roger Clemens (3 sns) has yet to have a winning record on an all star team.

[olivertheorem]

That makes sense. I suppose you'd have to some major tweaking of the PMCs to resolve that matter.

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by The Game

In my experience fictional players are almost always better then real players. Better defense mostly. I import several real players per year and clone them in my 2 leagues. Very rarely do they win awards. There are exceptions such as Michael Westen's (A-Roid) .385 51 HR 145 RBI Triple Crown. My clone of Mickey Mantle hit 51 HR as a rookie but hit .267 31 Hr 92 RBI this past season. A clone of Roger Clemens (3 sns) has yet to have a winning record on an all star team.

Aw, Hell, Game. YOUR fictional players are monsters! (literally)




Serious post to follow....

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by olivertheorem

That makes sense. I suppose you'd have to some major tweaking of the PMCs to resolve that matter.

In the league I had the experience I described I had a full set of minors through rookie ball.

It was one of the first leagues I had run for any length using random debut.

So, you had a dynamic in play where real players were being pulled at the rate required to field minor league teams. Only the best of the best got actual ML time.

So, when the fictionals came and started filling in slots left by retiring MLBers, the MLBers that were there, were fully developed best of the best guys, and they obliterated all of the records previously set.

Perhaps this wouldn't happen with just having AAA teams. I don't know. I haven't tried. I have ended all my leagues since then once the first fictional guys enter the draft.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla

Aw, Hell, Game. YOUR fictional players are monsters! (literally)




Serious post to follow....

Aliens sure, but monsters...C'Mon Man! I was thinking about doing Herman Munster at some point.

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by The Game

Aliens sure, but monsters...C'Mon Man! I was thinking about doing Herman Munster at some point.

What?!? Never heard of the "Wookie Monster"??????......

I am also assuming that your clones are in a non recalc environment, correct?

[The Game]

Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla

I am also assuming that your clones are in a non recalc environment, correct?

correct.

[nyy26wc]

Originally Posted by The Game

I could be wrong about this so don't quote me on this. I have heard that if you delete a player from the draft, whether its the Inaugural draft or the Ammy draft. He will reappear later on at some point. I want to say either PStricket or The Wolf has said this, not sure.

I can now confirm that, if you delete a player from the in augural draft, he will reappear later.

I am currently running a sim test with the Gambo database, for random debut. I deleted a bunch of players from the inaugural draft. 42 year old Hoyt Wilhelm was among them and then 18 year old Wilhelm appeared in the 1st amateur draft.