Clutch Rating?

[rudel.dietrich]

No no no

The most important single engine change that OOTP 2008 needs is a fully fleshed out RBI rating!
I will no longer stand by and let such iconic players as Shea Hillenbrand and Gary Carter go on being so underrated. It is a travishamemockery I tell you!
There needs to be an engine change that reflects their contributions at the plate and recognizes their unique talents.

Hillenbrand is an RBI machine!

[bababui]

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

Hillenbrand is an RBI machine!

With a tweaked groin

[bigdgp2]

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

No no no

The most important single engine change that OOTP 2008 needs is a fully fleshed out RBI rating!
I will no longer stand by and let such iconic players as Shea Hillenbrand and Gary Carter go on being so underrated. It is a travishamemockery I tell you!
There needs to be an engine change that reflects their contributions at the plate and recognizes their unique talents.

Hillenbrand is an RBI machine!

I second this notion! There should also be a sac-fly rating as Adam Dun suxs at hitting sac-flyz!

[toxicavenger74]

Originally Posted by bababui

This is a murky area. It is entirely possible that some people react much more favorably to the rush of adreneline in pressure situations. It might be possible for it to give someone a >100 boost to their baseline abilities. How many stories have we read about people performing above their percieved abilities in highly stressful situations? While others are crushed by them.

I would certainly agree that physiological changes such as adreneline could contribute to performance improvements however, I believe it is minimized due to the slow moving nature of baseball. Additionally, the physiological change would be expected to decrease as the individual is exposed to the similar situations over and over. However, there could be an immediate adreneline rush at the time of the swing but again I believe any individual would be conditioned over-time and this "rush" would be minimized.

Also, these guys play a lot of baseball and are exposed to a lot of critical points throughout the season. The playoff pressure (not measureable) while I'm sure is present is most likely exaggerated (not measureable) on the observer side.

[bababui]

Originally Posted by toxicavenger74

I would certainly agree that physiological changes such as adreneline could contribute to performance improvements however, I believe it is minimized due to the slow moving nature of baseball. Additionally, the physiological change would be expected to decrease as the individual is exposed to the similar situations over and over. However, there could be an immediate adreneline rush at the time of the swing but again I believe any individual would be conditioned over-time and this "rush" would be minimized.

Also, these guys play a lot of baseball and are exposed to a lot of critical points throughout the season. The playoff pressure (not measureable) while I'm sure is present is most likely exaggerated (not measureable) on the observer side.

Could several poor performances in pressure situations create some kind of a chemical template in the brain that creates a permanent 'condition'?

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by bigdgp2

I second this notion! There should also be a sac-fly rating as Adam Dun suxs at hitting sac-flyz!

Quit trying to water down the issue hobbit lover


An RBI rating is like...6,000x more important than all the other ratings.
What wins games? Scoring runs
How does runs score? By being driven in
game.set.match case closed
This game can never be taken seriously as a realistic depiction of the game of baseball until the shortsighted developers decide to stop being lazy and sit down and figure out how to implement an RBI rating into the game.

[rudel.dietrich]

I also want to point out, that a clutch rating cannot exsist since at some point a league will have a player named Gload.
When the game tries to assign him a clutch rating there will be a tear in the time space continuim and the universe will implode in on itself.

That would be a highly undesirable situation

[toxicavenger74]

Originally Posted by bababui

Could several poor performances in pressure situations create some kind of a chemical template in the brain that creates a permanent 'condition'?

In my opinion, I don't think so. I attribute these choke situations to the typical failure rate that is to be expected combined with randomness of baseball.

Also, keep in mind that clutch has as much to do with how the person hitting in the order ahead does. So, if A-Rod is the first batter up and hits a single in the bottom of the ninth----big deal (sarcasm here). But if Jeter hits a double and then A-Rod hits a single to drive him in ---then all of a sudden that's clutch? A-Rod didn't peform differently, but the team in front did therefore giving the observer that A-Rod did something different. He didn't.

Another point, A-Rod did something the first 6 games that no other Yankee has done. The media, the fans, his own team including the team captain (how's that for leadership) has undeseverdly dogged him. If pressure exists and I'm sure that it does, he's feeling it now but yet he goes out and hits 5 home runs in 6 games including a walk-off grand-slam. To me, this is what I would expect one of the greatest ballplayers of our time to do so its not clutch--its what great ballplayers do and its backed up by his amazing career.

I also should note that I use to be a big A-Rod hater but when I step back and looked at it objectively I really had nothing to hate. I think I hated that he got such a big contract but that's not his fault. Also, I was much more of a BoSox fan so the Martinez Zimmer tossing playoff series against Boston really turned me against him....but all he was doing was playing with passion (not-measureable), trying to win.

[DCG12]

You would have a better time convincing me of your arguements if you would remove your lips from A-Rods butt before you post.

Now that I got that off my chest, I would argue that his performance in the first week is what those of us who thinks he is a classic choke artist would expect. I.e first week of April I'll put up numbers and get everybody off my back.

There is not the same pressure just because the fans and/or his own team have ragged him. He can walk away at the end of the year so I think its a case of I'll show them, but come crunch time (read vs. Red Sox or playoffs) he fall down again.

[CalvinHobbes]

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

Quit trying to water down the issue hobbit lover


An RBI rating is like...6,000x more important than all the other ratings.
What wins games? Scoring runs
How does runs score? By being driven in
game.set.match case closed
This game can never be taken seriously as a realistic depiction of the game of baseball until the shortsighted developers decide to stop being lazy and sit down and figure out how to implement an RBI rating into the game.

You fool! These two issues are part and parcel. How do you get a sac fly (for the most part)? By driving in a run on a fly ball out.

How short sighted you've become in your lust for an RBI engine.

[toxicavenger74]

Originally Posted by DCG12

You would have a better time convincing me of your arguements if you would remove your lips from A-Rods butt before you post.

Now that I got that off my chest, I would argue that his performance in the first week is what those of us who thinks he is a classic choke artist would expect. I.e first week of April I'll put up numbers and get everybody off my back.

There is not the same pressure just because the fans and/or his own team have ragged him. He can walk away at the end of the year so I think its a case of I'll show them, but come crunch time (read vs. Red Sox or playoffs) he fall down again.

So, what would be your explanation for Puljos going 1 for 17 with no RBI's to start the year including games against the Mets and Astros (he broke out of it eventually). If pressure is so fluctuating and has such an impact then we would expect better performances in April.

Additionally, there is no convincing on my part...clutchness does not exist, the stats prove it. If you think or see otherwise then you are lying to yourself.

Lastly, my criticism is related to baseball, baseball players and statistics. I am a fan of baseball first and A-Rod is a lightening rod for the casual observer. I am merely using him to illustrate a point....but he is one of the greatest baseball players of your generation, like it or not.

[billethius]

Originally Posted by Erik W.

I'm well aware, thanks.

I'm curious to see why you think that's an argument against some players performing better than others in "clutch" situations. It seems to me that shows an example of someone playing to his absolute peak performance in a clutch situation, for the second time in his career.

The two playoff appearances you posted are more meaningful than the ones that came before?

ALDS SEA BAL L 4 16 1 5 1 0 1 1 0 5 .313 .313 .563 0 0 0 0 0
ALDS SEA CHW W 3 13 0 4 0 0 0 2 0 2 .308 .308 .308 0 1 1 0 0
ALCS SEA NYY L 6 22 4 9 2 0 2 5 3 8 .409 .480 .773 1 0 0 0 0
ALDS NYY MIN W 4 19 3 8 3 0 1 3 2 1 .421 .476 .737 2 1 0 0 0
ALCS NYY BOS L 7 31 8 8 2 0 2 5 4 6 .258 .378 .516 0 0 0 0 2

[DCG12]

Originally Posted by toxicavenger74

So, what would be your explanation for Puljos going 1 for 17 with no RBI's to start the year including games against the Mets and Astros (he broke out of it eventually). If pressure is so fluctuating and has such an impact then we would expect better performances in April.

You are mixing the ebb and flow of a season with a discussion that was about whether "clutch" exists or not.

Players will have slumps and hot streaks but the point was whether some players (A-Rod) consistently fail in so called big games or big series like a playoff scenario. And to follow that discussion whether or not failing in "key" situations is "lacking clutchness" and consistently succeding is "clutch"

[toxicavenger74]

Originally Posted by DCG12

You are mixing the ebb and flow of a season with a discussion that was about whether "clutch" exists or not.

Players will have slumps and hot streaks but the point was whether some players (A-Rod) consistently fail in so called big games or big series like a playoff scenario. And to follow that discussion whether or not failing in "key" situations is "lacking clutchness" and consistently succeding is "clutch"

No, the point is that clutch does not exist. You are falling into the common casual observer trap of using a statistically small and cherry picked sample size to attempt to prove that it does exist.

I am picking up from your messages that you explain the existence of clutchness due to the difference in pressure. I am pointing out that if this is true then players should statistically perform better at the start of the season where it is assumed pressure to be the least. You have stated that A-Rod performed better to get people of his back, so from this there is the implication that he has decided to now "try harder".

If this is the case then why did A.P. go 1 for 17? The pressure should be relatively light (and it is). A.P. has a W.S. ring. He has always "tried". So, is he just not trying hard now?

The correct answer is that actually, these comparisons are pointless because they are all small sample size. The whole point is that you can't look at the first 3 games or the last 3 games and pull anything from that.

[DCG12]

Originally Posted by toxicavenger74

No, the point is that clutch does not exist. You are falling into the common casual observer trap of using a statistically small and cherry picked sample size to attempt to prove that it does exist.

I am picking up from your messages that you explain the existence of clutchness due to the difference in pressure. I am pointing out that if this is true then players should statistically perform better at the start of the season where it is assumed pressure to be the least. You have stated that A-Rod performed better to get people of his back, so from this there is the implication that he has decided to now "try harder".

If this is the case then why did A.P. go 1 for 17? The pressure should be relatively light (and it is). A.P. has a W.S. ring. He has always "tried". So, is he just not trying hard now?

The correct answer is that actually, these comparisons are pointless because they are all small sample size. The whole point is that you can't look at the first 3 games or the last 3 games and pull anything from that.

First off I resent the condescending casual observer label you through my way as at age 52 and a life long follower of the game I am far from casual and have probably seen more games than you can imagine. I also don't think I gave you any samples small or otherwise.

You also mis-read my posts or are deliberatly twisting my words. I am not argueing that clutch exists in the sense that you seem to think. I am only saying if it does exist (and I appreciate arguements on both sides)then the determination of it should be those situations that bring intense pressure to suceed. As to A-Rod, my point is not so much that he was trying harder but that the intense pressure to suceed does not exist right now so you should not use that in your arguement as to why he is so great. As to Pujols you make my point-simple fluctuations of the season.

[DCG12]

Originally Posted by toxicavenger74

No, the point is that clutch does not exist.

dola
Your stating this repeatedly doesn't make it any more right. No one knows if it exists. It's one of those things that is almost impossible to prove one way or the other at present. Cases can and have been made both ways

[Qrusher14242]

Originally Posted by toxicavenger74

So, you are saying that A-Rod is not clutch? Let me see the analysis/stats that proves this.

Keep in mind he has done something the last 6 games that no other yankee has ever done including a walk-off grandslam.

Actually, he is the 3rd yankee to hit a walk-off grandslam. The other two(Babe Ruth in 1925 and Giambi in 2002) came after being down 3 runs. I remember watching the Giambi home against the Twins. Very sucky day heh

[RchW]

I have the best clutch rating. Seven cars in 34 years, never burned one yet.


Touch wood...

[elracko]

perhaps the rating should be more of a career aggregate called "clutch reputation" that a player does not actually develop until x number of seasons of service - this rating could be be, surprise, ACTUALLY based on the players statistics in C & L situations

or, do not even create a rating - GM's should review the readily available statistics for C & L situations. from there, simply compare to the players regular statistics. negative numbers (neifi's), are generally bad (except in k's and gidp), positives are good

[RonCo]

Originally Posted by DCG12

dola
Your stating this repeatedly doesn't make it any more right. No one knows if it exists. It's one of those things that is almost impossible to prove one way or the other at present. Cases can and have been made both ways

I used to say clutch does not exits. However, I've seen two pieces of data that have changed my mind to where I think clutch probably does exist, but it's worth no more than 1-2 runs in a season at best. Effectively nil. I wouldn't suggest it be put in the game at that point, as I have no idea of how one would code that.