Tanking?

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by <Pion>

You asked for the WAR of the players trained and can see that training them did not hurt but even helped the team even in the one season they did train. Not sure how that even compares or can be seen as bad.

For the record... The team has two perfects, two diamonds and 10 golds on their reserve roster and plays silvers, bronzes and irons in their place. They went from 80-82 to winning 23% of their games,

This is such a strange tangent to this thread. Training players at new positions has a negligible affect on the team's overall ability to win games, unless you're trying to train a catcher or shortstop. And even then, it's not going to turn a .400 team into a .200 team. It might turn it into a .380 team. That's not tanking and it's not giving other teams tons of PP.

[eldur00]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

It really is pathetic that people can't freaking figure it out themselves. Why do people have to push rules to the limit?

Really if you're so tired of a team, just leave it the way it is and start a new one or quit playing.

Sure, if it's a free team.


What about the guy that spent 500$ on his team ? Why does he have to be told to fold and leave that money behind, instead of managing his assets however he pleases ?


The "rules" are nowhere to be found in the manual or in the PT interface. Even worse, they are buried in a couple forum posts, not in a sticky somewhere. Even then, that would not be enough because most people who play a video game do not frequent the forums of said game or any of their social media outlets.


Said "rules" were kept vague on purpose, and I'm pretty sure they were made up on the fly AFTER the PP shop was open. That means people went and bought points with their money, just to be told afterwards how they were supposed to spend said points...assuming they landed on the one or two forum post where the vague rules were established.


So to me, that's what I find pathetic. That people have to justify how and why they want to manage their assets the way they do. In a game where you can spend easily 20$ for one player only, you better bet I can do whatever I want with that player if he isn't working out. I have never played a game before that takes real life money and then tells you how you're allowed to spend said assets. I haven't played every game on the planet, but in every game I have played where you can purchase in-game currency, once currency is bought, as long as there is no account hacking going, you're free to do what you want with it.


Retooling on the fly happens in the MLB every season, so why can't it happen here ? Obvious tanking in the game should be monitored (like all irons out of position players in Perfect), but otherwise I think some people should utilize the same advice they gave a few months ago when people were complaining about whales in Bronze leagues.."You can't prove that they bought that team, you can't prove what they're doing, you should focus on your team. What does it matter what others do and they'll be gone in a week anyway".

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by eldur00

Sure, if it's a free team.


What about the guy that spent 500$ on his team ? Why does he have to be told to fold and leave that money behind, instead of managing his assets however he pleases ?


The "rules" are nowhere to be found in the manual or in the PT interface. Even worse, they are buried in a couple forum posts, not in a sticky somewhere. Even then, that would not be enough because most people who play a video game do not frequent the forums of said game or any of their social media outlets.


Said "rules" were kept vague on purpose, and I'm pretty sure they were made up on the fly AFTER the PP shop was open. That means people went and bought points with their money, just to be told afterwards how they were supposed to spend said points...assuming they landed on the one or two forum post where the vague rules were established.


So to me, that's what I find pathetic. That people have to justify how and why they want to manage their assets the way they do. In a game where you can spend easily 20$ for one player only, you better bet I can do whatever I want with that player if he isn't working out. I have never played a game before that takes real life money and then tells you how you're allowed to spend said assets. I haven't played every game on the planet, but in every game I have played where you can purchase in-game currency, once currency is bought, as long as there is no account hacking going, you're free to do what you want with it.


Retooling on the fly happens in the MLB every season, so why can't it happen here ? Obvious tanking in the game should be monitored (like all irons out of position players in Perfect), but otherwise I think some people should utilize the same advice they gave a few months ago when people were complaining about whales in Bronze leagues.."You can't prove that they bought that team, you can't prove what they're doing, you should focus on your team. What does it matter what others do and they'll be gone in a week anyway".

If MLB teams tanked the way we're talking about tanking in PT, the league would step in and take over the team. We're not talking about retooling on the fly. We're talking about losing on purpose so they can be relegated to easier leagues. We're talking about teams in that tanking team's division unfairly racking up tens of thousands of achievement PP.

The rules were kept vague likely because the developers didn't realize they had to treat everyone like spoiled children. When they said 'don't lose on purpose' they probably thought that people were adult enough to figure out what that means and not push it to the limit of what is allowed.

But of course in today's world, there will always be people who try to stretch the rules just to see if they can and argue "I was just trying to see how good of a team I could make with backup catchers."

Try to freaking win or quit. It's not hard. Your money was gone the minute you spent it.

[HRBaker]

Every now and then we have to return to the original issue...

The team in questions either sold all his good players or, at least, replaced them with Iron and Bronze players to accomplish one thing - to get relegated into a level he was more competitive in - or in the hopes of banking in on the additional PPs he would earn in a lower level.

Problem is, he also increased the PPS his opponents would earn that still had games on the schedule with him - making it unfair for those teams that did not. Basically, he unbalanced the league.

Were a MLB team replace it's players with all Single A minor league players - you can bet the powers to be would put a stop to it. Oh wait; there are actual rules in place that limits that kind of wholesale changeout.

I'll say it again, the Devs have to decide how to handle this. If they choose not too, others will push the envelope until many who are currently enjoying PT will come to realize it isn't worth it.

That's simply the logical outcome of feeling your being taken advantage of by players who refuse to play fairly.

My gut feel however, considering this thread has brought considerable attention to the issue - and the Devs have not weighed in - is that they are ok with the way things are. If so, it's time for us to deal with it and move on.

[eldur00]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

If MLB teams tanked the way we're talking about tanking in PT, the league would step in and take over the team. We're not talking about retooling on the fly. We're talking about losing on purpose so they can be relegated to easier leagues. We're talking about teams in that tanking team's division unfairly racking up tens of thousands of achievement PP.

The rules were kept vague likely because the developers didn't realize they had to treat everyone like spoiled children. When they said 'don't lose on purpose' they probably thought that people were adult enough to figure out what that means and not push it to the limit of what is allowed.

But of course in today's world, there will always be people who try to stretch the rules just to see if they can and argue "I was just trying to see how good of a team I could make with backup catchers."

Try to freaking win or quit. It's not hard. Your money was gone the minute you spent it.

The Miami Marlins and their 2 873 433 selling out of players in the past 20 years say hi and wonder how it feels under that rock.

[CrazyWR]

there is a difference between 60 wins and 20 wins man. If the Marlins called up single A players and got slaughtered for 80 games, you bet there would be a takeover.

[chazzycat]

Originally Posted by CrazyWR

there is a difference between 60 wins and 20 wins man. If the Marlins called up single A players and got slaughtered for 80 games, you bet there would be a takeover.

So if someone was to subtly tank their team, enough to get relegated, but not enough to be a complete laughingstock, is that cool?


Asking for a friend. I definitely have never tanked any of my teams in a subtle fashion. I mean how would you even do that, without risking a ban? It's not like all your strategy sliders are hidden from the other managers, making it impossible to be reported if you tank that way. Oh wait...

[CrazyWR]

I mean, I think that would be acceptable, but I'm more lenient than most. That said, losing more than 110 games is really difficult without actively trying

[Mizzery]

Originally Posted by chazzycat

So if someone was to subtly tank their team, enough to get relegated, but not enough to be a complete laughingstock, is that cool?


Asking for a friend. I definitely have never tanked any of my teams in a subtle fashion. I mean how would you even do that, without risking a ban? It's not like all your strategy sliders are hidden from the other managers, making it impossible to be reported if you tank that way. Oh wait...

I had a gold pack only FTP team that was stagnating and that I had grown bored with. I transitioned it over a two week period, completely restarting it over as a themed team and replacing every card with the exception of two players who fit with the new theme.

During those two weeks, I did not get relegated, and highly doubt I dramatically upset the competitive balance of the leagues I was in, winning 75-78 games each season.

I did it by selling three to four cards at a time, working my way down from most valuable cards to least, and immediately reusing the proceeds as the cards sold to buy equivalent themed players to replace them with. Wash, rinse and repeat.

No tanking, no replacing diamonds with iron cards, no 40 win seasons, no giver of massive achievement points to teams I played against. Anybody could do this at any time, and in fact, it may be even easier at higher levels if you have very valuable cards which will sell in the AH for top dollars.

Would it be easier to have a reset button and start again? Sure, but the developers have repeatedly said no and that it would compromise the league structure.

The overwhelming amount of complaints that fill these type of threads follows the same repeated pattern: "my team has gotten to x level, and is now stagnant, and is not good enough to win or be promoted, but is not bad enough to be demoted. I am no longer earning the volume of achievement points I used to. I am no longer having fun. Because I am no longer having fun, please alter the game rules to accommodate me, through resets, salary caps,changed allocation of achievement points, differentiation between pay and FTP teams, changing the promotion and relegation rules, or some other modifications."

OOTP 20 PT will be a 52 season game. While maybe not perfect, IMO the beauty of this game is the flexibility to play it with a widely diverse approach of playing styles and strategies, plus the ability to change course an unlimited umber of times. No team is truly stuck in mediocrity, unless they choose to allow themselves to be by not being flexible to altering their team or their strategic approach.

[chazzycat]

Originally Posted by Mizzery

No tanking, no replacing diamonds with iron cards, no 40 win seasons, no giver of massive achievement points to teams I played against.

The point I was trying to make was that the line between tanking and not tanking is very gray and fuzzy. Your definition only seems to include the super obvious tank jobs, which I think everyone agrees that those should be banned. But where do you draw the line? Any of the more subtle forms of tanking are near impossible to identify. Is the takeaway that if you want to tank, be a little more clever about it? Because that doesn't seem right either.

[Thalion]

Originally Posted by eldur00

Sure, if it's a free team.


What about the guy that spent 500$ on his team ? Why does he have to be told to fold and leave that money behind, instead of managing his assets however he pleases ?


The "rules" are nowhere to be found in the manual or in the PT interface. Even worse, they are buried in a couple forum posts, not in a sticky somewhere. Even then, that would not be enough because most people who play a video game do not frequent the forums of said game or any of their social media outlets.


Said "rules" were kept vague on purpose, and I'm pretty sure they were made up on the fly AFTER the PP shop was open. That means people went and bought points with their money, just to be told afterwards how they were supposed to spend said points...assuming they landed on the one or two forum post where the vague rules were established.


So to me, that's what I find pathetic. That people have to justify how and why they want to manage their assets the way they do. In a game where you can spend easily 20$ for one player only, you better bet I can do whatever I want with that player if he isn't working out. I have never played a game before that takes real life money and then tells you how you're allowed to spend said assets. I haven't played every game on the planet, but in every game I have played where you can purchase in-game currency, once currency is bought, as long as there is no account hacking going, you're free to do what you want with it.


Retooling on the fly happens in the MLB every season, so why can't it happen here ? Obvious tanking in the game should be monitored (like all irons out of position players in Perfect), but otherwise I think some people should utilize the same advice they gave a few months ago when people were complaining about whales in Bronze leagues.."You can't prove that they bought that team, you can't prove what they're doing, you should focus on your team. What does it matter what others do and they'll be gone in a week anyway".

The rules are in the TOS (Terms of Service). It's located in the directory where the game is installed. It's a text file named "license" I believe.


Yeah, nobody reads those things, but that doesn't mean we're not bound by them when we play the game.

[Thalion]

Originally Posted by chazzycat

The point I was trying to make was that the line between tanking and not tanking is very gray and fuzzy. Your definition only seems to include the super obvious tank jobs, which I think everyone agrees that those should be banned. But where do you draw the line? Any of the more subtle forms of tanking are near impossible to identify. Is the takeaway that if you want to tank, be a little more clever about it? Because that doesn't seem right either.

It's not our responsibility to determine where the line is drawn. All we are charged to do is report activities that we believe are violations and let the appropriate parties determine whether lines have been crossed or not.

[chazzycat]

Well, good luck reporting a team tanking via their strategy sliders, which you have no access to.

[atabakin]

Originally Posted by chazzycat

Well, good luck reporting a team tanking via their strategy sliders, which you have no access to.

I think you're the only one who said anything about strategy sliders, no?

[chazzycat]

Yes, that is the point I was trying to make. People are writing about tanking as if it's this black & white situation - either you're playing iron cards out of position and losing 120 games, or you're trying your best. The reality is that there are a huge number of other ways to tank, which are more subtle and even undetectable in the case of strategy sliders. And so the current system seems to be "if you want to tank, do it cleverly". So these conversations about tanking which revolve around the super obvious ones are kinda missing the point IMO. For every obvious tank job getting reported there are probably a dozen subtle ones sliding under the radar. Is that not a problem?

[Thalion]

I guess if nobody who can be affected by it perceives it to be a problem, then it really isn't a problem.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by chazzycat

Yes, that is the point I was trying to make. People are writing about tanking as if it's this black & white situation - either you're playing iron cards out of position and losing 120 games, or you're trying your best. The reality is that there are a huge number of other ways to tank, which are more subtle and even undetectable in the case of strategy sliders. And so the current system seems to be "if you want to tank, do it cleverly". So these conversations about tanking which revolve around the super obvious ones are kinda missing the point IMO. For every obvious tank job getting reported there are probably a dozen subtle ones sliding under the radar. Is that not a problem?

I don't think anyone here has ever thought it to be black and white. The title is "Tanking?" with a question mark because the question was whether or not it was. I personally believe in this case given the record and manner done, it is. Could it have been done in a more subtle way, yes I'm sure it happens all the time. But when done in a subtle manner, it doesn't attract attention to the team and most likely always goes unnoticed. As far as "if you want to tank, do it cleverly", I don't condone that as well, it's just that if done cleverly, it will probably go unnoticed and it probably does not upset the balance of the league. The easiest answer if the team was truly rebuilding would be to do as stated earlier. Sell players and replace them with others and chances are you avoid relegation and improve your team. Selling some stars while benching the remainder is a more blatant form of tanking IMO though not the worse seen.

[chazzycat]

Originally Posted by Thalion

I guess if nobody who can be affected by it perceives it to be a problem, then it really isn't a problem.

The only way people would know, was if I told them. But yeah ignorance is bliss I suppose.



Like for example, Pion, what if I told you that my SF Giants theme team, currently in the same league with your Dodgers, is only in gold level because I cleverly tanked in diamond last week? Would it be a problem then?

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by chazzycat

The only way people would know, was if I told them. But yeah ignorance is bliss I suppose.



Like for example, Pion, what if I told you that my SF Giants theme team, currently in the same league with your Dodgers, is only in gold level because I cleverly tanked in diamond last week? Would it be a problem then?

Next step, world domination.

[dkgo]

so its not fair that someone might be lucky enough to have a tanking team in their division and earn a few thousand PP against them, but its perfectly OK that someone can simply buy as many PP as they want putting the rest of the teams in their division at an unlucky disadvantage? or that someone is going to pack babe ruth and have a leg up on everybody?

being in a division with a tanking team is far down the list of luckiest things that can happen in this game. its such a small impact and just for one week.