THE Red Sox Thread (and Yankees too!) - Page 9

Gastric ReFlux · 10-14-2004, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kezzek

roffle

It kills me that people still don't get it when Manny mocks them.

whoa, that puts a whole sorta new spin on things, and it also must mean that Manny is a Yankees fan! Welcome to the flock, Manny my brother! Let's go taunt Boston!

Luis_Rivera · 10-14-2004, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elendil

A market of 11 million+ people is always going to generate far more revenue in the long run than a market of 1-2 million. What this suggests is that the NY area should have 3-4 teams, as in the 1950s, to make the playing field more level.

disposableheros · 10-14-2004, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

I think that's a valid statement because baseball hasn't penetrated the culture in Tampa nearly as well as it has in Boston and NY... as there is no history there.

history or not, winning provides fans. look at the Angels, no history of winning, lackluster fans, and not coincidentally, horrible attendance/revenue. win the Series a couple years ago and boom, not coincidentally, great attendance and excited fans. revenue is still behind, but thats because Arte went on a spending spree. he gets it

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

For the record, I feel the same way about bringing Boston's roster/history there. My point from the beginning has been you can't just create a market overnight just by spending as your statements have incinuated (intentionally or not).

im not sure where you picked up "overnight". i never said it would be eay or quick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

Whether or not you agree with that logic is your decision, but the condescending response is pretty uncalled for.

true, my bad. im sorry.

Luis_Rivera · 10-14-2004, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by disposableheros

history or not, winning provides fans. look at the Angels, no history of winning, lackluster fans, and not coincidentally, horrible attendance/revenue. win the Series a couple years ago and boom, not coincidentally, great attendance and exceited fans. revenue is still behind, but thats because Arte went on a spending spree. he gets it

This is actually a pretty good point. However, it is a little flawed... The spending did not come until the market was there. In 2002, they won the WS with a payroll of roughly $60 million... which was middle-of-the-pack at the time. Not until AFTER they won the WS (and the history was there

) did Arte buy the team and start spending.

disposableheros · 10-14-2004, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elendil

Simply not true. Owners have tried this before. Look at the Orioles or the A's or the Reds. All those teams have had great runs of championships, but since the era of free agency, they've been unable to hold their high-quality teams together: their players get bought away by the Yankees and other large-market teams.

A market of 11 million+ people is always going to generate far more revenue in the long run than a market of 1-2 million. What this suggests is that the NY area should have 3-4 teams, as in the 1950s, to make the playing field more level.

i never knew BAL, OAK, CIN, TB, MIL were so sparcely populated

dont you think winning and losing might have something to do with "market size"?

Luis_Rivera · 10-14-2004, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by disposableheros

im not sure where you picked up "overnight". i never said it would be eay or quick.

The "overnight" wasn't mentioned specifically... but your posts incinuated that it would be of that nature considering that you said if the Yankee roster was transplanted to Tampa they'd sell out.

MannyTrillo · 10-14-2004, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastric ReFlux

whoa, that puts a whole sorta new spin on things, and it also must mean that Manny is a Yankees fan! Welcome to the flock, Manny my brother! Let's go taunt Boston!

Oh, OK, great I'll go be Yankees fan.

Oh, wait a sec, I actually have both a BRAIN and a CONSCIENCE.

Sorry, I don't think this is going to work.

disposableheros · 10-14-2004, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

The "overnight" wasn't mentioned specifically... but your posts incinuated that it would be of that nature considering that you said if the Yankee roster was transplanted to Tampa they'd sell out.

sorry, should have gone a step further and specifically stated that it wouldnt be overnight. but i gotta imagine that the team would win, there would be increased "buzz" in the city, and the bandwagoners would flock to the stadium.

draven085 · 10-14-2004, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by disposableheros

sorry, should have gone a step further and specifically stated that it wouldnt be overnight. but i gotta imagine that the team would win, there would be increased "buzz" in the city, and the bandwagoners would flock to the stadium.

Yeah, just look at the A's increased attendance during their great five year run!

disposableheros · 10-14-2004, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

This is actually a pretty good point. However, it is a little flawed... The spending did not come until the market was there. In 2002, they won the WS with a payroll of roughly $60 million... which was middle-of-the-pack at the time. Not until AFTER they won the WS (and the history was there

) did Arte buy the team and start spending.

i think we can all agree that them winning was an anomoly. how many teams with 60mil payroll have won the Series in the last decade?

and then Arte comes in and SPENDS. his team just won the Series and it would have been extremely easy to just sit back and enjoy the next season or 2 of fairweather fans, but he didnt. He gets it. He went out and spent big on players, on advertising to the Dodger base, and even reduced prices on many things for consumers.

BlackHatCowboy · 10-14-2004, 03:34 PM

I think disposableheros said it best--spend the money to make money. Bsoton is learning but they got a ways to go.

jcurtis423 · 10-14-2004, 03:37 PM

I'm not Red Sox fan or a Yankees fan, but I think it really shows a lack of class how Yankees fans like Gastric Reflux and CommishJoe start piling on like this when their team is winning.

Anachronism · 10-14-2004, 03:38 PM

Edit - actually, forget that - I'll just step back for a little longer

Luis_Rivera · 10-14-2004, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by disposableheros

and then Arte comes in and SPENDS. his team just won the Series and it would have been extremely easy to just sit back and enjoy the next season or 2 of fairweather fans, but he didnt. He gets it. He went out and spent big on players, on advertising to the Dodger base, and even reduced prices on many things for consumers.

YES you're proving my point here. He did the right thing... AFTER they won the world series and the Angels market potential was finally realized. Had he gone out and spent prior to the win, it wouldn't have made a difference!

And true... more often than not, the World Series winners will probably come from a team with a higher payroll but the last 2 years (not sure what the DBacks payroll was in '01... someone want to cover that one?) have proven that it's not necissarily an "anomaly."

Luis_Rivera · 10-14-2004, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcurtis423

I'm not Red Sox fan or a Yankees fan, but I think it really shows a lack of class how Yankees fans like Gastric Reflux and CommishJoe start piling on like this when their team is winning.

I haven't exactly read through this thread completely... but, in fairness, I don't see Joe "piling it on" anywhere. (Even as a Sox fan)

Milverton · 10-14-2004, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

I haven't exactly read through this thread completely... but, in fairness, I don't see Joe "piling it on" anywhere. (Even as a Sox fan)

I go to New York two or three times a year to a sports writers convention. I think the normal mode for a Yankees fan is, "to pile on," but only in the most good natured of ways. One must be extra sensitive to take much offense in this light hearted banter!

jcurtis423 · 10-14-2004, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Milverton

I go to New York two or three times a year to a sports writers convention. I think the normal mode for a Yankees fan is, "to pile on," but only in the most good natured of ways. One must be extra sensitive to take much offense in this light hearted banter!

Good point, milferton (can i call ya milf?)

I was probably taking everybody's postings a bit too seriously. I've been lurking for awhile so I should have known better. Of course, if my Cards are lucky enough to win it all this year, I know I will have a hard time not boasting a bit myself! It's been a long 17 years!

disposableheros · 10-14-2004, 04:00 PM

relation between team payroll and team performance

http://www.economicsbulletin.com/200...-03A10003A.pdf

this gentleman also did a study on the relation of team performance and team revenue, but i cant seem to find it....YET.

an abstract from a study done by another person

Quote:

The evaluation shows that star players have little affect on attendance in baseball. Other factors like winning, payroll, payroll variance, and new stadiums increase overall attendance. A team is better off with three mid-priced free agent signings than one high priced super star. Other findings show that winning will put people in the seats. If a team makes the playoffs consistently it can expect higher attendance figures. Lastly people want to see a game from a new facility played on natural grass. By using regression this study proved star players are not necessary to increase attendance.

http://studentwebs.coloradocollege.e...20players2.htm

Gastric ReFlux · 10-14-2004, 04:04 PM

If you all would just become Yankees fans, this whole problem is easily solved.

I remember the days when we all stood together in brotherhood, rooting the United States Women's Beach Volleyball team! Brings a tear to me eye, good times good times. We were men, proud men, proud of the bikinis!

Will you join back in brotherhood again, behind the Yankees and Derek Jeter?

disposableheros · 10-14-2004, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

YES you're proving my point here. He did the right thing... AFTER they won the world series and the Angels market potential was finally realized. Had he gone out and spent prior to the win, it wouldn't have made a difference!

And true... more often than not, the World Series winners will probably come from a team with a higher payroll but the last 2 years (not sure what the DBacks payroll was in '01... someone want to cover that one?) have proven that it's not necissarily an "anomaly."

see my previous post for payroll/performance study, if you dont want to take the time to read it.....it is an anomoly. anything can happen in a short series, but teams that spend, win more!

we'll never know what would have happened if he was there before and spent

are you saying teams should wait to win and have a full market, before they spend? seems kind of counterintuitve.

if i decided to start a new business, id have to spend before i make anything. if i bought a failing business, id have to spend to turn it around. if i bought a successful business, id have to spend to keep it successful.

10-14-2004, 03:38 PM	#173
Anachronism All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Great White North Posts: 945	Edit - actually, forget that - I'll just step back for a little longer __________________ "Ruth did it on Beer and Hotdogs..." Last edited by Anachronism; 10-14-2004 at 03:40 PM.

10-14-2004, 03:34 PM	#171
BlackHatCowboy Minors (Single A) Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Wichita Posts: 94	I think disposableheros said it best--spend the money to make money. Bsoton is learning but they got a ways to go.

10-14-2004, 03:37 PM	#172
jcurtis423 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 57	I'm not Red Sox fan or a Yankees fan, but I think it really shows a lack of class how Yankees fans like Gastric Reflux and CommishJoe start piling on like this when their team is winning.

10-14-2004, 04:04 PM	#179
Gastric ReFlux Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Member #3409 Posts: 8,350	If you all would just become Yankees fans, this whole problem is easily solved. I remember the days when we all stood together in brotherhood, rooting the United States Women's Beach Volleyball team! Brings a tear to me eye, good times good times. We were men, proud men, proud of the bikinis! Will you join back in brotherhood again, behind the Yankees and Derek Jeter?