Bonds vs. Ruth rehashed

[sixfour210]

Originally posted by JML
I think you are confusing Ruth's dominance with Aaron approaching, and breaking, his record. Yes, there were a lot of racists who didn't want to see a black man break Ruth's record, but if you are implying that there was some conspiracy to keep blacks from showing up Ruth, then I, too, am completely ****ing speechless.

Why is this so far fetched. Do you believe people actually thought blacks were equal to whites in 1920 muchless today? Do you think these same people who did not believe blacks could drink at their water fountains or use their bathrooms or even ride on the front of the bus could actually live with knowing that these people that were beneath them, were actually better than them? Why is that so out of this world?

Fear kept baseball segregated. Fear that someone that was not even worthy of a front seat on a bus could actually beat them at their own game. This wasn't just praciticed in baseball. things like this happened accross America, folks. Believe it or not, there were a larege group of white people that did not want to see blacks succeed at anything. I'm not sure, but I think that's how Civil Rights came about. . .

[Crapshoot]

JESUS ****ING CHRIST- ITS NOT ABOUT RACE!

[sixfour210]

Originally posted by Mel_Ott
They were!!!!1111 NOBODY is arguing that point! BABE RUTH WAS OFF THE FRICKIN' CHART. THAT's the point.

OK let me rewrite my original thought.

1. Blacks lead the league in HRs now.

2. Blacks lead the league in HRs shortly after integration.

3. Why couldn't blacks lead the league in HRs when Babe Ruth was playing? (if they were allowed to play)

[holyroller]

The world we live in:



The world Rockze lives in:

[JML]

Originally posted by sixfour210
Why is this so far fetched. Do you believe people actually thought blacks were equal to whites in 1920 muchless today? Do you think these same people who did not believe blacks could drink at their water fountains or use their bathrooms or even ride on the front of the bus could actually live with knowing that these people that were beneath them, were actually better than them? Why is that so out of this world?

That is exactly what I believe. I believe racism kept blacks out of the MLB. I don't believe they were kept out in order to secure Ruth's place in the annals of baseball history.

How did you manage to turn this into some racial argument that has little to do with baseball at all?

[Mel_Ott]

Originally posted by sixfour210
I'm sitting here laughing at your post. First, reread it. Second, you should realize that you said comparing white players to white players is racist? So, if all of Babe Ruth's stats are only against white players, is that racist? Does that make MLB racist?

Stats, by definition, are not people. Therefore, the stats cannot be racist. MLB was racist, certainly until 1947; by some standards, it still is.

You have to make these comparisons in order to gauge how relevant Ruth's stats really are. There's no way introducing an entire race to the sport CANNOT have a big impact. Like I said, if introducing black players to baseball didn't have a big impact, take them away now and see how much the game changes.

Nobody's saying it didn't have a big impact. I notice you keep making broad generalizations and then somehow assuming that the people who you're interacting with here share that view. If you stuck to what people actually say - you know, stuff we DO know - this discussion might turn fruitful.

What people are saying is you seem not to grasp the distinction between individuals (e.g. Babe Ruth, Henry Aaron) and groups (whites, blacks, latinos). The fact that black players came to appear regularly as MVP candidates means that, probably, in general there were pretty good black players before, too.

But saying that later black players were good, so there could have been a black Babe Ruth, is a logical fallacy. Yes, there could have been; there could be in the future, too. But the facts don't show it; and if you just want to make stuff up, there's a guy in Beaverton you'll get along with just swell.

[sixfour210]

Originally posted by holyroller
People who break people down in to groups and compare them only by race will tend to get called racist.

Like I said HR, in this instance, it's very relevant. You can only compare Ruth's stats to other whites because, get this, he only played with other whites

[Mel_Ott]

Originally posted by sixfour210
OK let me rewrite my original thought.

1. Blacks lead the league in HRs now.

2. Blacks lead the league in HRs shortly after integration.

3. Why couldn't blacks lead the league in HRs when Babe Ruth was playing? (if they were allowed to play)

Because BABE RUTH WAS OFF THE FRICKIN' CHART!!!!!11

Look, if no white player (since that's who was in the major leagues) was coming near Ruth in 1921, why would we think that black players would be any different? Being black doesn't make you a better or worse ballplayer. If Ruth was so utterly exceptional among white players, on what basis can we make the assumption that there was some black guy who was just as good or better?

[sixfour210]

Originally posted by JML
WE ARE SAYING NO ONE COULD HAVE. NO ONE OF ANY COLOR.

How do you know that? Why wasn't a black man capable of hitting 60 HRs back then?

My point is that you don't know. So why claim he's a freak when you don't know.

[JML]

Originally posted by sixfour210


Fear kept baseball segregated. Fear that someone that was not even worthy of a front seat on a bus could actually beat them at their own game. This wasn't just praciticed in baseball. things like this happened accross America, folks. Believe it or not, there were a larege group of white people that did not want to see blacks succeed at anything. I'm not sure, but I think that's how Civil Rights came about. . .

O.M.F.G.

You actually think we weren't aware of freaking racism and the Civil Rights Movement? How condescending can you get?

[holyroller]

Originally posted by sixfour210
How do you know that? Why wasn't a black man capable of hitting 60 HRs back then?

My point is that you don't know. So why claim he's a freak when you don't know.

And our point is you don't either. So we're agreed. So what are you arguing?

[JML]

Originally posted by sixfour210
How do you know that? Why wasn't a black man capable of hitting 60 HRs back then?

My point is that you don't know. So why claim he's a freak when you don't know.

Wellll, for one, as fat dude mentioned, and I quoted, and you obviously ignored:

Ruth was a dominating pitcher too. Name me ONE player who ever did that.

[sixfour210]

Originally posted by holyroller
Actually, you have fit both of those criteria here in this very thread.

Please explain to me how I:

A) Said black people are better at baseball or that blacks are the superior race.

B) Or discriminated or prejudiced someone by saying white people were not able to do what black people could have done (Oh yeah, that was you guys )


Quotes please.

[Kezzek]

No, keep going, Zaki! This is totally Tony the Tiger Grrrrrreat!

[sixfour210]

Originally posted by Mel_Ott

Nobody here is saying blacks were inferior to whites at any time. Nobody knows if there was a black Babe Ruth, but we don't "automatically" dismiss the idea. We look at the facts and conclude that there's no evidence that there was such a player. Using a principle of logic called Occam's Razor, we take it that the simplest explanation is most likely the true explanation. There's no evidence of a black Babe Ruth because there was no such person.

And why is there no evidence of a black Babe Ruth? Poor record keeping or just lack of publicity.

BTW, there's no evidence that God exists . . .

[ill16ca]

post count +1

[Mel_Ott]

Originally posted by sixfour210
How do you know that? Why wasn't a black man capable of hitting 60 HRs back then?

"A black man" was and is just as capable as "a white man" - whether we're talking about rocket science or swatting dingers.

But that's not the argument here. The argument here is, was there any specific black man who in fact did hit 60 homers? Since baseball was segregated, we have to look at Negro League stats of the same time; and there wasn't. Or if there was, you haven't given any evidence of him.

My point is that you don't know. So why claim he's a freak when you don't know.

And OUR points are that (1) you don't know either; and (2) you have no evidence to support your theory. You go from an overbroad generalization to an unsupported specific case without citing anything more than your own opinion as backup. Why should anyone care what you think about Babe Ruth if all you have to offer is unsupported opinion and conjecture?

[JML]

Originally posted by sixfour210


BTW, there's no evidence that God exists . . .

Can we talk about politics next?

[Mel_Ott]

Originally posted by sixfour210
And why is there no evidence of a black Babe Ruth? Poor record keeping or just lack of publicity.

Or the simplest explanation: he didn't exist. If you want to make up wild conspiracy theories about how The Man kept the Black Babe Ruth under wraps, you knock yourself out, Oliver. But if you want to retail your wild suppositions as support for the idea that Ruth isn't as good as Bonds, you're going to have to deal with people calling you on your lack of evidence.

BTW, there's no evidence that God exists . . .

RIGHT. Just like the Black Babe Ruth.

[sixfour210]

Originally posted by holyroller
One key difference here, maybe you aren't noticing it, is that while in Ruth's day only white players could play in the major leagues, we have thankfully left that behind and, theoreticaly anyway, ballplayers can be judged solely on their skills and not on their race. Yet you talk about Barry Bonds being the best black player and he's better than the best white player and so on and so forth. Maybe it's too subtle for you, but it's a pretty big difference in my eyes.

But you did say comparing white players to white players was racist. every time you look at Babe Ruth's statistics, they are giving you a racist viewpoint, according to what you said. I compare blacks to blacks and whites to whites and so forth because that's the only way to give us any sort of glimpse as to what Babe Ruth was up against. He didn't play against blacks and put up incredible numbers. What if Barry Bonds didn't play against whites or even if he didn't play against blacks or latinos? What then?


Okay then, since you seem to know, how much should we deduct from Ruth's stats? 10 percent? 20 percent? 30 percent? 75? Tell us. Enlighten us.

We don't know. And that's not what I'm out here to find out. I am here to find out why people think Babe Ruth was some kind of immortal being and why a black person couldn't have risen to such a height? I know you said all colors but that includes black people. I'm not interested as to why Indians could not be as good as Ruth or Turks or even other whites. I want to know why black people, who have proven they can be just as good and better than white people throught the history they have been in the game, could not, in a million years, play at the level Babe Ruth was at? Answer me that question.