OOTP Patch #4, Version 10.4.29 released!

[Millsy]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

No, it wouldn't have been. The solo player majority should not be made to suffer just to please the online league player minority. Nor should the Windows patch need to wait on the Mac path or the Linux patch, or vice versa. That's just selfish madness.

So there are no solo players on Mac or Linux? Or do you simply think that the solo Windows player is all that matters? Who's being selfish now?

[Sparrow]

At the risk of coming across as naive, and I have not been following this debate that closely, I'm a little confused. No one is forced to get this patch and the previous patches are still available, and still work as they did before the patch was released. Are leagues unwilling to unpatch if they have already? Or can leagues not be put on hold (like the one I'm in)? This seems like an issue for a commissioner, not OOTP.

Perhaps there should have been a disclaimer "We discourage all online leagues from patching until all unforeseen, unpredicted demonic intrusions are sufficiently taken care of." Although I suppose sufficiently would become the new point of contention.

Stupid analogy alert:

If I'm at a pizza buffet I would be pissed if they didn't put out the pepperoni pizza because they didn't want the vegetarians to feel left out, and those slices weren't ready yet.

Point is, it is not a slight to Mac users, if the Mac version was ready first they would have released it, and I would have cried a little, but not held it against them.

[mad0die]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

At the risk of coming across as naive, and I have not been following this debate that closely, I'm a little confused. No one is forced to get this patch and the previous patches are still available, and still work as they did before the patch was released. Are leagues unwilling to unpatch if they have already? Or can leagues not be put on hold (like the one I'm in)? This seems like an issue for a commissioner, not OOTP.

No well-run league with active and involved commissioner(s) would update to a patch version that everyone in their league can not export from.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by mad0die

No well-run league with active and involved commissioner(s) would update to a patch version that everyone in their league can not export from.

So that sounds like a solution, again I wasn't following the debate. Is the problem that poorly run leagues did update, putting league members in both a well-run league and a poorly run league in a position to choose which to stay involved with for the 1-3 weeks this is an issue?

[mikev]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

At the risk of coming across as naive, and I have not been following this debate that closely, I'm a little confused. No one is forced to get this patch and the previous patches are still available, and still work as they did before the patch was released. Are leagues unwilling to unpatch if they have already? Or can leagues not be put on hold (like the one I'm in)? This seems like an issue for a commissioner, not OOTP.

Perhaps there should have been a disclaimer "We discourage all online leagues from patching until all unforeseen, unpredicted demonic intrusions are sufficiently taken care of." Although I suppose sufficiently would become the new point of contention.

A lot of online leagues /don't/ move to a new patch as soon as it's released, specifically to avoid any gamebreaking stuff that may or may not have been introduced with said patch. Generally, at least speaking for my league, we /do/ advise our owners on whether or not to patch, or at least when the commish(es) will be moving to the new patch. Part of running a league is communicating with everybody involved to keep them on the same page.

There can be issues with people in more than 1 league, one patched and one not patched. I believe a workaround has been posted for that, though.

Stupid analogy alert:

If I'm at a pizza buffet I would be pissed if they didn't put out the pepperoni pizza because they didn't want the vegetarians to feel left out, and those slices weren't ready yet.

Point is, it is not a slight to Mac users, if the Mac version was ready first they would have released it, and I would have cried a little, but not held it against them.

However, if you are on a Greyhound bus going across country, and that bus stopped at the pizza buffet for a certain amount of time before leaving, you /would/ be pissed if you were a vegetarian and you didn't get to eat before the bus left, but everybody who wanted pepperoni did. Right? You'd be a bit more upset if you had been made aware that the pizza buffet /knew/ that there were vegetarians en route, but still did not have the veggie slices ready at the same time, wouldn't you?

The issue really isn't with online leagues though. It doesn't make sense to only release one supported version of a piece of software when you're supporting three separate OS versions.

[karadur]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

At the risk of coming across as naive, and I have not been following this debate that closely, I'm a little confused. No one is forced to get this patch and the previous patches are still available, and still work as they did before the patch was released. Are leagues unwilling to unpatch if they have already? Or can leagues not be put on hold (like the one I'm in)? This seems like an issue for a commissioner, not OOTP.

Perhaps there should have been a disclaimer "We discourage all online leagues from patching until all unforeseen, unpredicted demonic intrusions are sufficiently taken care of." Although I suppose sufficiently would become the new point of contention.

Stupid analogy alert:

If I'm at a pizza buffet I would be pissed if they didn't put out the pepperoni pizza because they didn't want the vegetarians to feel left out, and those slices weren't ready yet.

Point is, it is not a slight to Mac users, if the Mac version was ready first they would have released it, and I would have cried a little, but not held it against them.

You're missing the part where a lot of users are in multiple online leagues.
If I'm in two leagues and one updates now and the other is waiting on a Mac patch then everyone in the first league is forced to swap EXE's everytime they need to load up the other leagues they are in.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by mikev

However, if you are on a Greyhound bus going across country, and that bus stopped at the pizza buffet for a certain amount of time before leaving, you /would/ be pissed if you were a vegetarian and you didn't get to eat before the bus left, but everybody who wanted pepperoni did. Right? You'd be a bit more upset if you had been made aware that the pizza buffet /knew/ that there were vegetarians en route, but still did not have the veggie slices ready at the same time, wouldn't you?

The issue really isn't with online leagues though. It doesn't make sense to only release one supported version of a piece of software when you're supporting three separate OS versions.

Funny enough this exact situation has happened to me when I was a vegetarian. I wasn't for that meal however. I was hungry and I wasn't a vegetarian for religious or allergenic reasons, so it was easier for me to break than some. Neither here no there.

I disagree though with your second point. I believe it makes sense to release what's available when it's available. Especially since the main drawback is jealousy. The issue of some leagues upgrading and others not sounds like an issue for the commissioners not OOTP. I'm comfortable that there are at least two points of view here. I'm simply presenting mine.

Originally Posted by karadur

You're missing the part where a lot of users are in multiple online leagues.
If I'm in two leagues and one updates now and the other is waiting on a Mac patch then everyone in the first league is forced to swap EXE's everytime they need to load up the other leagues they are in.

I don't think I missed that part. OOTP should not punish its entire constituency because some commissioners patch and others don't. The release of the patch did not compromise the functionality of the previous patch at all. OOTP cannot control whether people patch or not, that should be determined by commissioners and whether they are worried about how their actions impact Mac users, and members in multiple leagues. I wouldn't want OOTP regulating this by withholding a patch.

[JoseRijo]

I think i would have appreciated an extra message of caution on the downloads page saying something like "Online League Commissioners, the MAC patch does not exist presently! You may want to hold off an upgrade until such time as this patch is released on all platforms."

[Sparrow]

I could see the appeal of a heads up, and I think maybe there would be one next time. However, I thought I saw a post saying how this happens every patch and it's always a problem.

And to those who get tripped up by this annually I say:

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

Edit: This isn't actually a jab at the people unfortunate enough to run into this problem annually, I just wanted to use this quote.

[PotatoPeeler]

Originally Posted by JoseRijo

I think i would have appreciated an extra message of caution on the downloads page saying something like "Online League Commissioners, the MAC patch does not exist presently! You may want to hold off an upgrade until such time as this patch is released on all platforms."

Yeah, that would have been helpful. But since communication has not been a strong suit with this particular version of the game, I don't think many are surprised that we didn't see this sort of message.

[mikev]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

Funny enough this exact situation has happened to me when I was a vegetarian. I wasn't for that meal however. I was hungry and I wasn't a vegetarian for religious or allergenic reasons, so it was easier for me to break than some. Neither here no there.

I disagree though with your second point. I believe it makes sense to release what's available when it's available. Especially since the main drawback is jealousy. The issue of some leagues upgrading and others not sounds like an issue for the commissioners not OOTP. I'm comfortable that there are at least two points of view here. I'm simply presenting mine.



I don't think I missed that part. OOTP should not punish its entire constituency because some commissioners patch and others don't. The release of the patch did not compromise the functionality of the previous patch at all. OOTP cannot control whether people patch or not, that should be determined by commissioners and whether they are worried about how their actions impact Mac users, and members in multiple leagues. I wouldn't want OOTP regulating this by withholding a patch.

I tihnk yo'ure still missing the point though. It's not a jealousy issue, it's a matter of supporting /all/ platforms. I guess if you view OOTP as three separate games -- A Windows game, a Mac game, and a Linux game -- then I suppose you could make some kind of argument that they aren't the same and the patches don't matter. Since that's not the case and OOTP is presented as a single, multi platform game, I would submit that the patch was not ready if ALL VERSIONS were not ready.

Again this is not an online vs solo issue, it's a platform issue that happens to have its largest effect with online leagues, specifically users in multiple leagues.

[PotatoPeeler]

Originally Posted by mikev

It's not a jealousy issue, it's a matter of supporting /all/ platforms. I guess if you view OOTP as three separate games -- A Windows game, a Mac game, and a Linux game -- then I suppose you could make some kind of argument that they aren't the same and the patches don't matter. Since that's not the case and OOTP is presented as a single, multi platform game, I would submit that the patch was not ready if ALL VERSIONS were not ready.

Again this is not an online vs solo issue, it's a platform issue that happens to have its largest effect with online leagues, specifically users in multiple leagues.

Well said.

[Sparrow]

I understand your point, I really do. I also disagree whole heartedly with the premise that the patches should only be released separately if they are different games.

[mikev]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

I understand your point, I really do. I also disagree whole heartedly with the premise that the patches should only be released separately if they are different games.

Then you're disagreeing with industry standard software development practices.

Unless, of course, we're talking about a singular issue that only affects ONE platform and necessitates an "emergency" patch, but that's not what we're dealing with here in patch 4.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by mikev

Then you're disagreeing with industry standard software development practices.

I'll take your word for it. This is the only game I play, and I am admittedly out of touch with how the rest of the gaming world operates.

Either way, I don't feel like I have anything more to add to the debate so I will bow out. Additionally, even if we don't agree on this, I imagine we do agree that we look forward to the final patch being released on all platforms.

[mad0die]

Is there some pink arrow involved in getting the Mac patch?!!?

[Subzero]

I am just so happy we are able to have the jersey numbers imported right now! My money was well spent!

[ronzonie007]

Originally Posted by mad0die

Is there some pink arrow involved in getting the Mac patch?!!?

I tell you what, if it exists, we need to know about it. I still can't find the damned draft in OOTP6.

[ronzonie007]

Originally Posted by Subzero

I am just so happy we are able to have the jersey numbers imported right now! My money was well spent!

I tell you though, it'd be nice if when the jersey numbers imported, my skin would scroll through all available options, like Musical Skins, and we'd get some in-game sound. I'm thinking a jersey import would sound like hitting someone with a sack full of oranges.

[MogulChamp]

Originally Posted by ronzonie007

I tell you though, it'd be nice if when the jersey numbers imported, my skin would scroll through all available options, like Musical Skins, and we'd get some in-game sound. I'm thinking a jersey import would sound like hitting someone with a sack full of oranges.

Be careful what you wish for, or we may never see a fully functional online game.