New HW Boxers Rated

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Tuesday 08 October 1957
Auditorium
Richmond, California, USA
promoter Jimmy Cosenza
boxer lbs record boxer lbs record
Tommy Fields 196 6 5 2 W Bob Butcher 196 17 0 0 TKO 10/10
Heavyweight
time: 0:19 referee: Matt Zidich
Butcher was knocked down once in the 2nd and 9th round.
Rocky Fumerelle 157 9 0 0 W Joe Brewer 159½ 8 3 1 PTS 6/6
Middleweight
Sixto Rodriguez 172 10 0 1 W Jim Fisher 170 1 1 0 PTS 6/6
Light Heavyweight
James Head 185 debut W Herman Henry 185 1 1 0 KO 1/4
Heavyweight
Ken Gordon 135 1 11 3 L Guadalajara Kid 135½ 17 7 0 PTS 4/4
Lightweight

JANUARY 1958 RING – IN SUNNY CALIFORNIA - A good opening fights at the Auditorium in Richmond, California between two decent heavyweights, Tommy Fields and Bob Butcher. Decent little write up on this in the Ring. At the time of the fight, Tommy Fields was coming with a modest at best can be said 6-5-2 record and was coming off an 8th round TKO loss to Buddy Turman back in June. Butcher on the other hand was sporting a 17-0-0 mark with 12 stoppages all opponents none much to speak off. Ring noted Bob trained and to take all his opponents seriously, but not for this fight. Bob actually controlled in more of the rounds especially in the middle ones after being dropped for a four count in the 2nd round. In the 9th round though Fields began to connect with his punches and dropped Butcher on his back. Referee Matt Zidich had reached the count of 7 when the bell rung to end the 9th. Then early in the 10th round with Fields knocking Butcher all over the ring, Zidich finally called the fight. Promoter Jimmy Cosensza pulled in a $2648 gross pay for the night card that will feature another heavyweight bout and a light heavy matchup that will feature up and coming Sixto Rodriguez.

Bob Butcher was originally rated by Chris Mund and I originally did Tommy Fields somewhere way back in the yearly years. I found a nice obituary article on Bob Butcher that gave some good back ground on him which I’ve included in some of his Bio you can read up on. I created a new HW rating for him and did some play testing getting some results I liked. Chris’ rating is still included though in the file attached so you can do some comparison. Fields I did a bit of updating including his ratings bit with some new testing. Back in 1957 after Fields had stopped Butcher in that 10 rounder, the two matched again two months later in December and this time Butcher won a 10 round decision. So I kept fiddling with both fighters ratings till I got to a point I liked with both of them where the two were fairly overall evenly splitting all the rematch fights and then their overall career results coming out decent. So you’ll see Butcher’s rating dropped 1 from what Chris had.

TITLE BOUT 2013 – So then in my one fight rematch of Oct 8, 1957….and winner by Unanimous decision Bob Butcher!! Butcher dominated the fight with scores o 97-92, 98-91 and 98-91. After two close first rounds to Butcher and an even 3rd by all three judges, a bad cut was opened on Fields left eyebrow after the two fighters butted heads. Despite that cut Fields keeps Butcher on the defense and the 4th turns into Tommy’s best round. 5th round and it turns all for the guy from San Francisco as an uppercut catches the Fields jaw and puts Tommy down for a 7 counts about midway in the round. Butchers keeps coming at Fields and puts him down again in the 7th for 9 before Fields manages to struggle his way up off the canvas. Fields manages some come back in the 8th but in the 9th the left eyebrow cut reopens and hinders him the rest of the fight.

[Rocco Del Sesto]

JANUARY 1958 RING -IN SUNNY CALIFORNIA – Two undercards to the Oct 8, 1957 Richmond Auditorium show pitted up and coming light heavyweight from Manati, Puerto Rico, Sixto Rodriguez who was holding down a 10-0-1 record against San Francisco native Jim Fisher. Rodriguez ran his record to 11-0-1 with a 6 round decision over Fisher. Fisher is listed in BoxRec as a heavyweight and I’ve rated him as such even though he fought this matchup against Rodriguez at a mere LHW 170 weight and would fight some later fights barely under and/or over the 175 LHW limit. Rodriguez is in TB with an “official” rating. The file for Rodriguez I’ve included only for a couple small bio updates I’ve included. Did not do anything with the rating.

The other undercard covered was a matchup of 185 pound heavyweights James Head making his debut and Herman Henry fighting for the 3rd time with a 1-1 record having TKO’d George Tavares and then losing a 4 round decision to Leon Hatcher a month ago from this October night in 1957. Head if you remember I rated just a little while again when started this project with the 1959 Ring Magazine and Head had fought Joe Sullivan on Oct 21, 1958. So for covering his debut back in 1957, I did a fair amount of changes to his rating with some more thorough play testing. Much more satisfied with my results.

Fisher, Head and Henry none of which amounted to little of anything. A set of TC’s for your fighter collection.

TITLE BOUT 2013 – For our two undercard replays, Sixto again won himself a 6-round decision over Jim Fisher, this one a unanimous decision as two judges scored every round for Sixto while one judge for some reason was more liking to Fisher’s effort scoring it 59-56 including one round to Fisher and one even round?! The first two rounds were totally lackluster with either fighter doing hardly anything and scoring little if at all. Finally in round three Sixto decided to go to work and managed to connect with a double followed by a right that stunned Fisher and drew some blood with Fisher cut on the inside of his mouth. A volley of punches right at the end of the round stunned Fisher again. Sixto then over the last three rounds continues to spread open the scoring more into his favor to take to decision convincingly.
In our Head vs Henry matchup Head dominates round 1 but then in round 2 about a minute in Henry rains a combination of blows to the head and body of Head and stuns the crowd as Head tastes the canvas! Head lurches to his feet at the count of 9 but he stumbles and is down on his knees again and cannot beat the count of 10as he’s called out in the 2nd round at 1:08!!

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Saturday 12 October 1957
Legion Stadium
Hollywood, California, USA
promoter Jackie Leonard
boxer lbs record boxer lbs record
Don Jordan 137¼ 33 10 0 W Orlando Zulueta 136½ 66 29 11 UD 10/10
Lightweight
referee: Frankie Van 97-92 judge: Russ Bradford 97-92, Jimmy Wilson 98-91
Jordan was knocked down for an eight-count in the 2nd round.
Bobby Sands 159 4 1 0 D Larry Maldonado 162 9 3 2 TD 6/6
Middleweight
time: 2:47
Otis Fuller 192½ 0 1 1 L Willie Pope 191 0 4 1 PTS 4/4
Heavyweight
Ernie Bell 159 debut W Lloyd Cook 159 2 0 0 TKO 4/4
Middleweight
Bob Parish 173 debut L Puggy Jones 184 2 0 0 PTS 4/4
Heavyweight

JANUARY 1958 RING – IN SUNNY CALIFORNIA – Promoter Jackie Leonard staged a show at Legion Stadium showcasing a lightweight bout between ranked Orlando Zulueta and Don Jordan. A crowd of 3300 payed in to see Zulueta upset by Jordan in a 10 round unanimous decision. There were two heavyweight bouts that undercard along with a couple middleweight bouts. The first heavyweight battle saw Willie Pope win his first career fight with a 4-round decision over Otis Fuller. Pope’s previous fights were 4 losses and a recent draw. For Fuller this was his 2nd loss in 3 fights. The other heavy division tackle was pitted light heavyweight Bob Parish in his debut pro fight against Puggy Jones who was sporting a 2-0-0 early career record. Parish came out with a 4-round decision loss to Jones.

TITLE BOUT 2013 – Rematches of our heavy contenders. Fuller vs Pope, the first two rounds it looks like Willie Pope is going to repeat his 1957 win over Fuller. Pope lands a brutal cross right at the end of the 1st that dazes Fuller. Through the first 2 minutes of the 2nd round, things are fairly close with neither fighter landing much. There begins much holding by both fighters. Pope and Fuller are in a clinch when the referee breaks them apart hollering at them both to start fighting. With all the clinching going on an accidental head butt between the two fighters manages to open a nasty gash outside of Fuller’s right eye. The referee stops the fight to have the cut looked at but lets the fight continue into the 3rd round. They go into the 3rd for about 40 seconds when a cross and an uppercut close in by Pope connect hard and the cut is reopened by Fuller’s right eye and it begins bleeding badly again. At just under a minute, the referee, getting in close to look at Fuller’s eye then steps in and stops the action and escorts Fuller over to the ringside doctor. They stop the fight! With the cut to Fuller without any doubt caused by the accidental head butt in the 2nd round, they declare the fight a Technical Draw!

Bob Parish vs Puggy Jones replay reverses the results back on Oct 12, 1957 as Bob Parish wins a unanimous decision over Puggy Jones! It’s almost essentially a draw through the first three rounds. The first is a draw on the three judge cards, while the 2nd and 3rd rounds two scorers have the round split between the two fighters while the 3rd gave both to Parish for his vary narrow lead. The in the 4th round, Parish begins to score punches landing several to the body of Jones working inside, then he snaps Jones head straight back with a sweet uppercut! He follows that with a brutal cross to the solar plexus leaving Jones clutching his side and sucking for wind!! Then after a brief clinch, Parish catches Jones with a hard combination and Puggy Jones drops to the canvas! Jones gets up and takes a mandatory 8 count. With just a minute to go in the 4th, Parish tries to work in more on Jones body, but Jones does a great job protecting his body and moving away. Parish does manage to land a cross to Jones head which Jones counters with a hood to Parish’s to end the 4th. The knockdown was all that was needed to turn the tight score into the final unanimous decision for Parish.

Parish, Jones and Pope files included. Otis Fuller was rated/posted a bit ago in an earlier replay.

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Saturday 19 October 1957
Legion Stadium
Hollywood, California, USA
promoter Jackie Leonard
boxer lbs record boxer lbs record
Lulu Perez 129 39 11 2 L Lauro Salas 129 79 46 10 UD 10/10
Featherweight
referee: Lee Grossman 94-97 judge: Tommy Hart 92-97, Frankie Van 92-96
Eddie Gaspora 128½ 11 0 0 W Joaquin Veloz 125 1 2 0 TKO 4/6
Featherweight
Norman Letcher 173 2 0 0 W Tommy Johnson 176 4 1 1 PTS 4/4
Light Heavyweight
Gene Gresham 134½ 1 0 0 W Larry Wright 135½ 1 1 0 PTS 4/4
Lightweight
Wren Saxton 148 1 1 0 L Tommy Guytoni 142 debut PTS 4/4
Welterweight

JANUARY 1958 RING – A good crowd of 4200 came out to Legion Stadium on this Saturday night in October 1957 to see the featured match up of former World Lightweight Champion Lauro Salas lose a 10 round unanimous decision to Lulu Perez who as a 10-7 favorite to the “betcha boys”. Both fighters suffered cuts over their left eyes, Salas in the 6th round and then Perez in the 8th as it was hot and heavy fighting throughout the fight. Perez picked up the good margin scoring win despite a one point penalty for a low blow.
Out heavy division action in this card was a light heavyweight matchup between Norman Letcher 2-0-0 and Tommy Johnson 4-1-1. Letcher came away with the 4-round decision. Letcher is noted as a heavyweight in BoxRec and I guess you could make the argument to rate him as such going up and down in weight himself hang most of the time from the 175 – 179 range but, a good number of his biggest name opponents, in the later part of his career were light heavies Mauro Mina, Sixto Rogriguez and Bob Foster. But he also earlier fought the likes of heavyweights Sonny Moore, Dave Furch and Zora Folley. So later when we see Letcher again in May and June of 1958 to fight Moore, I might work on a HW version and see what differences there might be. Surfing the internet, I found an obituary on Norman Cornelius Letcher. A very interesting man. I’ve included in his file the web link to that article for your reading. Doesn’t tell a lot about his boxing career, but the comments confirm this is the one and same Norman Letcher from the boxing ring world. Included a photo of him, in his later years of course. Finding little gems like this on the internet is what makes this project extra fun I’m finding. Tommy Johnson, I could not find anything about him. I did rate him as a LH and MW. Look at his career he started out as light heavy, took a break in his career after losing by KO to Curley Lee in November 1957 which will be his next fight after taking on Norman here. Will be interesting to see if I find out anything more about him in I’m guessing maybe the Feb 1958 ring account on the Lee fight. Anyway in BoxRec Johnson reappears in June 1961 and the rest of his career he’s fighting pretty much as a middleweight. So I”ve broken him down into ratings for both divisions.

TITLE BOUT 2013 – Our fight replay has Norman Cornelius dominating pretty much the 4 rounder for a Unanimous Decision 40-35, 40-35 and 40-36 scores. Interesting that all referee and two judges all gave all 4 rounds to Letcher, but the referee scored the 2nd round 10-9 while the judges went with the more expected 10-8 scores with Letcher putting Johnson down for an 8 count in the 2nd with a perfect hook.

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Tuesday 22 October 1957
Civic Auditorium
San Jose, California, USA
boxer lbs record boxer lbs record
Kid Centella 139 22 16 1 L Willie Morton 136½ 10 1 0 UD 10/10
Lightweight
Art Wright 16 14 0 W Johnny Bass debut PTS 6/6
Heavyweight
Billy Fields debut D John E Lewis debut PTS 4/4
Heavyweight
Frank Brown 4 1 1 W John Medlock 0 2 1 KO 4/?

JANUARY 1958 RING – A promotion put on at the Civic Auditorium in San Jose by Jim Pusatari and Abe Acquistapace was center staged by a matchup of lightweights, hard hitting veteran Kid Centella and his young opponent, Willie Morton. This was the 2nd match between the two at the Civic in 3 weeks, won in a 10 round decision by Morton. This return match went the same 10 rounds a unanimous decision this time by Morton. Centella’s experience paid for him to enable to stay in the fight when he often appear to be ready to go down.

The 6 round matchups in the fight included veteran heavyweight Art Wright against new comer Johnny Bass. Bass managed to go the 6 rounds dropping a decision to Wright. I rated Wright a little bit ago for his previous fight against Leon Hatcher. Bass shows up only this one time in BoxRec. Another heavyweight match of two fighters making their debuts, Billy Fields, W3(KO2)-L12(KO4)-D2 and John E. Lewis W1(KO1)-L1(KO1)-D1. Lewis’ three fights listed in BoxRec are all against Billy Fields. Did some back and forth play testing attempting to get Fields’ career results while matching up even with Lewis as they did in their 3 fights. In testing Fields, I also did some tweaking of James Head’s rating that I did previous so here’s an update. I planned on tweaking and updating these guys as I saw the need as I progress through this and will repost, so hope you don’t get tired of seeing repeats along with tweaks of guys done previous by others.

TITLE BOUT 2013 – Replays saw Art Wright win unanimous decision over Johnny Bass 59-56, 57-56, 58-56 as the referee and one judge scored the 3rd round even and the ref and the other judge agreed giving Bass the first round. In the 6th round, Wright picked off a jab thrown by Bass and quickly rained a combination of blows to the head and body of Bass to send him to the canvas! Bass got up in 9 at the 1:20 count and managed to make it the rest of the round but that sealed the victory for Wright.
A draw back in 1957 turned around to a unanimous decision by Billy Fields in the 4 rounder. A close one at that, 38-37, 38-37 and 39-36 by the referee. Fields put Lewis down with a combination at 1:33 in the 2nd round for an 8 count. The only knockdown of the fight. During my play testing replaying their three matches together, results would go back and forth with each one coming out on top winning 6-7 of ten fights, then reverse results and sometime fairly even w/l results. What I was hoping to attain.

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Tuesday 22 October 1957
Auditorium
Richmond, California, USA
promoter Jimmy Cosenza
boxer lbs record boxer lbs record
Jimmy Abeyta 112 7 0 3 W Abe Villa 111½ 9 1 1 KO 9/12
Flyweight
USA California State flyweight title
time: 0:34 referee: Jack Silver
Villa was knocked down in the 1st and 9th round.
Joe Louis III 11 10 2 W Andy Domebo 7 3 3 PTS 6/6
Heavyweight
Red Lite 0 6 0 L Rocky Fumerelle 10 0 0 PTS 6/6
Willie Woods 2 2 1 L Chico Villa 5 2 0 PTS 4/4
Tony Moss 6 2 3 W Larry Perez 1 1 0 PTS 4/4

JANUARY 1958 RING: One heavyweight matchup was part of the card which featured the California State Flyweight title fight between Jimmy Abeyta and Abe Villa at the Auditorium in Richmond, California. The BoxRec account of this fight notes that Abeyta won by Knockout in the 9th round of the scheduled 12 rounder. Notes that referee Jack Silver stopped it at 0:34 of the 9th and says Villa was knocked down in the 1st and 9th rounds. This Ring Magazine account says Abeyta stopped Villa early in the 2nd round?! Account says Villa got himself back up after the 2nd round knockdown but still dazed referee Silver halted the fight. Interesting side note here the difference in accounts of this fight. Anyone know information that backs up the BoxRec account or the Ring account/
The Ring magazine notes only that Joe Louis III won a decision in 6 over Andy Domebo. Does note their respective fight weights at 178 and 185 respectively. BoxRec does not note this. I rated Domebo at both LHW and HW. His career seems to break down this way forming a 5-2-3 record at light heavy and then moves up to heavyweight to take on Art Wright going 2-2 in his last 4 fights. That’s how I’ve broken the ratings down. More success and thus better rating at Light Heavyweight with his two losses being 4 and 6 round decisions to Sixto Rodriguez who was just getting his career started. I found and obituary for Domebo with a lot of interesting information on him. I’ve put the web link here to that article.
http://lmtribune.com/obituaries/andr...b02d207b0.html

Joe Louis III fashioned a modest record though it finished on the down side going 1-7-0 down the stretch. The only win the 6 round decision against Andy Domebo.

TITLE BOUT 2013 - Our rematch of Louis III and Domebo does not go the distance as Louis III manages to come back after getting dropped for a 9 count a minute into the 1st round by a Domebo combination. Joe manages to regain himself and get through the rest of the round. Domebo carried the 2nd round to gain a strong upper hand it looked like but Louis comes back strong in the 3rd and 4th rounds. Then in the 5th round Domebo manages to land several quick blows in the opening seconds but then suddenly Andy takes a sizzling uppercut from Louis flush on the chin and Domebo drops to his hands and knees! He gets to his feet wobbling while taking a mandatory 8. With barely a minute gone in the 5th, Domebo is in trouble even though he nods affirmative to the referee to let the fight go on. Louis quickly connects with a cross and then another powerful right cross staggering Domebo. Louis traps Andy in the left neutral corner and then lands a huge cross and Domebo hits the canvas a 2nd time in round 5 at the 1:28 mark. He struggles up in 9 leaning on the ropes. He gets himself off the ropes and comes back in toward Louis and the referee lets it continue. But then at 1:53 mark after Domebo absorbs a wicked cross to the head and staggers backwards and goes down in a heap. The fight is over by KO at 1:58. Victory for Louis III as in 1957 this time by knockout!

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Tuesday 01 October 1957
Memorial Auditorium
Sacramento, California, USA
promoter Jackie King (Auditorium Boxing Club), Fred Pearl (Victory Athletic Club)
boxer lbs record boxer lbs record
Joey Lopes 134 42 13 3 W Kid Castro 140 5 5 0 TKO 7/10
Lightweight
referee: Pete Morelli 57-56 judge: Mario Duccini 58-55, Fred Bottaro 58-56
Bobby Gray 129 8 1 1 D Davey Lee 130½ 8 19 8 PTS 6/6
Lightweight
Joe Neal 162 4 12 4 W Willie Lewis 164 5 8 2 PTS 4/4
Middleweight
Dave Midel 126 3 4 2 L Willie Woods 124½ 1 1 1 KO 2/4
Featherweight
Ray Thomas 138 1 6 2 L Ernie Virgin 135 debut PTS 4/4
Lightweight

Tuesday 22 October 1957
Stockton, California, USA
boxer lbs record boxer lbs record
Dommy Ursua 117 15 12 1 W Nacho Escalante 116½ 17 11 1 TKO 6/10
Bantamweight
referee: Pete Morelli
Escalante was stopped on a cut eye. Ursua was knocked down in the 2nd round.
Al Carroll 0 4 2 W Ernie Virgin 1 0 1 KO 1/?


JANUARY 1958 RING: This issue of the Ring what seems to be some conflicting accounts of fights staged at Memorial Auditorium, Sacramento, CA on Oct 1, 1957 where runs down a detailed account of the Joey Lopes and Kid Castro lightweight bout along with the supporting fights including light heavyweight Joe Neal vs middleweight Willie Lewis. But in this same January 1958 issue it runs down an account of the Dommy Ursua vs Nacho Escalante bout in Stockton, on October 22nd. BoxRec shows the full lineup of fights at Memorial on Oct 1 as accounted by Ring but BoxRec lists only the Ursua/Escalante fight along with Al Carroll vs Ernie Virgin. The Ring account of the card lineup at Stockton with Ursua/Escalante, Bobby Gray KO of Davey Lee in the 1st round listing slightly different weights for Gray and Lee than at Memorial on the 1st. Joe Neal decision win over Willie Lewis in a 6 round fight with again different fight weights for both than listed for the Oct 1 card and lastly Ring mentions the Carroll KO win over Virgin in 1 round. So it would appear that Gray vs Lee and Neal vs Lewis repeated fights at Stockton on Oct 22nd but BoxRec does not account for those fights and thus they’re not listed in the fighters records.
So in my biographies of Joe Neal and Willie Lewis in their files attached, I’m adding one more win for Neal’s record and one more loss to Lewis record. Can’t say why BoxRec does not account for those Oct 22nd fights for Gray/Lee and Neal/Lewis. By the way Ring notes Al Carrolls fight weight vs Virgin as 132 and Virgin’s weight at 134. If anyone is involved supplying fight info to BoxRec?

TITLE BOUT 2013: Our replay of Joe Neal vs Willie Lewis and I replayed the 6 round, Oct 22nd match, we ended with a spit decision victory for Willie Lewis. Our referee gave it to Neal 57-56 but the two judges had it 55-58 and 56-57 for Lewis.

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Saturday 26 October 1957
Legion Stadium
Hollywood, California, USA
promoter Jackie Leonard
boxer lbs record boxer lbs record
German Ohm 120 31 4 1 L Ross Padilla 121 9 4 2 MD 10/10
Bantamweight
referee: Dick Young 95-95 judge: Lee Grossman 95-98, John Thomas 92-97
Willard 'Battling' Nelson 137 25 0 3 L Nat Simon 137 2 0 0 SD 6/6
Lightweight
According to the Los Angeles Times, Nelson had entered the bout unbeaten in 38 bouts.
Curley Lee 183 debut W Anthony Emanuel 205 2 0 0 KO 3/4
Heavyweight
Puggy Jones 174 3 0 0 W Roy Smith 175½ 1 5 0 PTS 4/4
Light Heavyweight
Larry Mercer 147 2 2 0 W Richie McLane 147 9 9 1 PTS 4/4
Welterweight

JANUARY 1958 RING: The feature fight at Legion Stadium on Oct 26, 18=957 was Mexican Bantamweight German Ohm heavily favored over local Stockton fighter Ross Padilla. Padilla was a 4-1 underdog going into the bout but he managed to pull a majority decision upset over Ohm. According to Ring, Ohm suffered a bad gash under his right eye that hindered him in the later rounds of the fight. Turnout for this card was about 2500 fans. The undercard fights included the fight debut of heavyweight Curley Lee against heavyweight Anthony Emanuel who was making his 3rd pro fight after two victories earlier in the year to start his career off. Emanuel is a new fighter to add. Curley Lee was originally rated by Djday45(Dean) way back when. His rating was named Curley Lee Chapman which would appears to be his full name? Some accounts online seem to support that, but he would appear to go professionally by just Curley Lee. The account in this Ring Magazine notes him as Curley Lee. I did some of my own tweaking of Dean’s rating and updated a little fighter and bio info and created my new file as Curley Lee. So whichever how you’d like to fight Curley! Emanuel didn’t find anything online about. Maybe some later Ring issues as I progress I’ll find something more about him.

Puggy Jones vs Roy Smith is billed in BoxRec here as a light heavyweight matchup. Puggy I rated just a short while back and noted then that even though he fought up and down some between LHW and HW weight range, I rated him as a heavyweight as BoxRec lists him. I looked into the 1958 and 1959 Ring Annual ratings issued in February issues of each year and they have Puggy rated at Class D Light Heavyweight. So I’ve rerated Puggy Jones in the attached file as a LHW. BoxRec though lists Roy Smith as a light heavy, but like Jones you could make an argument to call him a heavyweight. Looking through Rings annual ratings they’d post in the February issues, they listed Smith a Class D LHW in 1959 and 60 issues. In 1961, they showed him up to Class D HW, then don’t see him rated in 62 issue then in 63 he’s back as a class C LHW (also lists his name as Roy Smith (Yancy D). In the 1958 and 59 years he is listed as Leroy Smith then in 1960 started listing him as Roy Smith. All that said, I’ve rated him as Roy Smith, LHW, a pretty hefty one at that!
Going forward I try to look more at the Ring ratings each year to see if the fighters are rated and in what division if there’s some question to what they might have been fighting in back their day.

In doing my playtesting for these ratings for I also went back and looked at Bob Parish and tweaked him a little bit whom I rated a bit earlier.

TITLE BOUT 2013: Back in 1957 Curley Lee knocked out Tony Emanuel in the 3rd round of their 4 rounder. Our 2017 replay was all Curley as he dominated the scoring in the 1st round and then one minute into the 2nd a hook to the jaw sent Emanuel down for an 8 count then barely a half minute later a thudding shot under Emanuel’s ribcage sends him crumbling to the canvas again on both knees. He gets up in 8 again and manages to get through the rest of the round. Into the 3rd round and the first minute produces little action with Curley scoring a couple times but then at the 1:22 mark, Lee lands a short clean hook and drops Emanuel like a shot hit him! There’s no recovering from this hit to the canvas as Emanuel is counted out at 1:33 in the 3rd round!

Puggy Jones vs Roy Smith refight saw Smith win by Unanimous decision here. Smith took the first 3 rounds on all cards 10-9 and while one judge scored the 4th round even the other judge and referee gave Puggy the 4th round, but needing a knock out really to win it meant defeat for Jones.

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Thursday 31 October 1957
Civic Auditorium
San Francisco, California, USA
promoter Lou Thomas
boxer lbs record boxer lbs record
Wallace Bud Smith 139 31 20 6 L Bobby Scanlon 138 25 0 1 TKO 10/10
Lightweight
time: 1:48 referee: Frankie Carter judge: Matt Zidich
Tony Moss 152 7 2 3 L Allen Lortez 158 20 10 0 PTS 4/4
Billy Fields 194 0 0 1 L John E Lewis 180 0 0 1 TKO 1/4
Heavyweight
Vic Cardot 135 6 3 0 W Speedy Henderson 135 debut TKO 3/4
Stanford Christy 145 1 12 0 L Merced Munoz 150 0 1 0 TKO 2/4
Luke Souza 158 0 1 0 W John Lauther 156 1 2 0 PTS 4/4

JANUARY 1958 RING: Promoter Lou Thomas drew into the Civic Auditorium back on Oct 31st, 1957 nearly 3500 fans to watch Bobby Scanlon score winning points in every round of the 10 round main event before the fight was stopped in 10th round for TKO victory of Wallace (Bud) Smith. The rest of the fights were 4 round affairs included a rematch between Billy Fields and John E. Lewis whom we saw a week earlier the two battle to a 4-round draw at the Auditorium in San Jose, Ca. This time round Fields is stopped in the 1st round by Lewis! No postings with this one.

TITLE BOUT 2013: Our replay of Fields and Lewis on that October 31st night in 1957 has the first two round scoring even with one judge giving both rounds to Lewis, the other judge giving both to Fields and the referee scoring the first to Lewis and the 2nd to Fields. The fight changes though very early in the 3rd as Lewis fires a solid combination that puts Fields down 0:36 into the 3rd. Fields manages to get up in 3 and the fight continues but Lewis is in command doing most of the scoring. The 4th round goes a quiet first 2 minutes with little action as Lewis looks to be playing safe content it would seem to rely on that 3rd round knockdown to give him the needed scoring edge. This allows Fields to come in and then trap Lewis in the corner and scores a combination to LewisÂ’ midsection. That seems to wake Lewis up as he gets inside on Fields and connects with a short hook to the head and then manages to pin Fields into the corner slipping a jab to the body. Then all of a sudden a solid hook drops Fields on this back! Fields manages to get to his knees by the 8 count but cannot get fully up in time as is counted out at 2:22 in the 4th round! KO win for John E. Lewis!

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Saturday 02 November 1957
Legion Stadium
Hollywood, California, USA
promoter Jackie Leonard
boxer lbs record boxer lbs record
Vince Delgado 126½ 13 4 2 W Alfredo Escobar 128 15 0 1 MD 10/10
Featherweight
referee: John Thomas 96-96 judge: Jimmy Wilson 97-95, Jimmy Wallace 96-94
Willie Gilbert 161 9 4 2 L Benny Doyle 163 2 3 0 UD 6/6
Middleweight
Joey Armstrong 135 3 1 1 L Gene Gresham 133½ 2 0 0 PTS 4/4
Lightweight
Arvil Sonny Burris 125 debut L Arnold Vigil 126 debut PTS 4/4
Featherweight
Benny Medina 140 debut D Ray Walk 140 4 0 0 PTS 4/4
Welterweight

JANUARY 1958 RING: Our last roundup out west in Sunny California. Jackie Leonard’s show at Legion Field drew in 5,500 fans to see undefeated Alfredo Escobar take on Vince Delgado in a featherweight matchup with Delgado sending Escobar down to his first defeat. Escobar was sent down for a 2 count in the first round which was probably the difference in scoring for Delgado. Escobar was posting a fast left jab in the last two rounds as Delgado seemed to be tiring. The end scoring of the fight was not to the liking of the local media and many fans.
Our fight of note was Willie Gilbert vs Benny Doyle. Indicated in BoxRec as a Middleweight, it got me looking at Gilbert some again whom I’d rated a little while ago as a light heavyweight. I looked him up and found him listed in the middleweight rankings of Ring’s annual rankings; in Feb 1958 Class D MW and in Feb 1959 Class C MW. I did not find him rank in 1960. So I’ve redone Gilbert splitting him with MW rating and LHW rating. Looking at his opponents I took the split at Gilbert’s fight with Bob Parish as his first light heavy opponent. His LHW rating is based on his last 5 fights then in which he went 1-4-0 including a TKO loss to Monroe Ratliff in May 1959 for the California State LHW title. Pre Parish fight then I’ve rated him middleweight which overall was better for Gilbert. Benny Doyle I’ve rated as LHW. The Feb 1958 Ring I found him rated as a Class D Light Heavy. So this Nov 2nd 1957 bout matches up a middleweight Gilbert vs LHW Benny Doyle even though Doyle’s fight weight of 163 and that of lower 160’s during a span of 4 fights around this time you could make the argument to rate him as a middle.

TITLE BOUT 2013 – Our 6-round replay fight Willie Gilbert turns out a split decision victory as the referee scores it 57-55 for Doyle but the two judges give same 57-55 scores to Gilbert. Both fighters went down for 8 counts. A Doyle cross to the jaw lands Gilbert to the canvas in the 2nd round but then in the 6th, Doyle hits the deck after a huge uppercut from Gilbert lands about halfway thru the 6th. Doyle manages to finish but that round ended being the deciding round.

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Tuesday 08 October 1957
Municipal Auditorium
San Antonio, Texas, USA
promoter Jimmy Scaramozi
boxer lbs record boxer lbs record
Eloy Tellez 175 17 9 0 L Santiago Gutierrez 163 5 2 3 KO 8/10
Light Heavyweight
time: 1:44 referee: Eddie Lopez
Tellez was knocked down in the 2nd and 8th round.
Ray Gonzales 135 10 7 2 L Jesse Gutierrez 130 4 7 3 UD 6/6
Lightweight
Joe O'Toole 127 3 12 3 L Frank Valdez 124½ 10 2 1 PTS 6/6
Featherweight
Barbara Buttrick 90 0 0 1 W Phyllis Kugler 113½ 1 0 1 UD 6/6x2
Flyweight
Armando Morales 127 2 0 0 W Raul San Miguel 128 debut TKO 3/4
Featherweight

JANUARY 1958 RING: Light Heavyweight Eloy Tellez vs MW Santiago Gutierrez is our main event at Municipal Auditorium in San Antonio Texas. The Ring account of this fight notes Gutierrez as “San Antonio’s Rough and Ready brawler”. It cover’s Tellez full name, Eloy Tellez Vann. Only then mentions despite being outweight by 12-1/2 pounds Gutierrez scored the 8th round KO. Ring lists Eloy’s fight weight at 175-1/2. The Feb 1958 Ring annual ratings does rate Eloy as a Class C LWH at this time of his career. Tellez’s fight weight bounces up and down through his career fighting MW’s and LHW’s. Based on the one Ring rating found, rated him here as a LHW as BoxRec lists him. Tellez and Gutierrez fought twice in their careers, here in 1957 and then again in early January 1959. Both times, the middleweight Gutierrez stops Eloy.

TITLE BOUT 2013 – Where as Eloy managed to last into the 8th round of the scheduled 10 rounder in October 1957, our rematch has Santiago making very short work of Eloy. The slugging Gutierrez comes right out with the bell in the 1st round swinging away landing crosses, hooks and jabs. At the 2:10 mark he suddenly rains a combination of blows to Eloy’s head and body and Tellez tastes the canvas! Tellez somehow manages to get to his feet in 8 but he was looking very dazed. Referee Eddie Lopez lets the fight go on but not for very long as Gutierrez pins Tellez and with a hard straight right followed by a flurry of other punches, Tellez is stunned to the point of near dropping to the canvas. But, Lopez steps in between the fighters and grabs Tellez to save him from further punishment. Gutierrez is the winner by TKO at 2:48 in the 1st round!

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Sorry been crazy busy at work and hitting the sack early at nights!

Tuesday 15 October 1957
Houston, Texas, USA
boxer lbs record boxer lbs record
Cleveland Williams 208 36 2 0 W John Holman 205 27 16 1 KO 7/10
Heavyweight
time: 2:12
Aldo Mente 22 11 4 W Ray Portilla 19 18 5 PTS 10/10
Manuel Gonzalez 3 1 0 D Armando Flores 10 9 5 PTS 6/6
Dean Bogany 1 1 0 W Tommy Sims 12 3 1 PTS 6/6
Light Heavyweight
Curt Woolwine 4 15 3 L Jimmy Leach 31 20 11 KO 4/?

JANUARY 1958 RING: Texas Boxing Enterprises put on a top flight heavyweight match in Houston featuring Cleveland Williams-“he’s on the move, and there’s no more dynamic puncher in the game today than big Cleve.” as he’s bio’d in this 1958 Ring edition. The account of the fight noted that this show went on despite that Houston that day, Oct 15th and the day before endured 9 inches of rain! Cleveland building into the prime mid point of his career was taking on another hard puncher, John Holman from Chicago. Holman though, as Ring noted was not in the Big Cat’s league and was in fact enduring through 5 losses in his last 6 fights, losing to Bob Baker, Eddie Machen, Willie Pastrano, Nino Valdes and Alex Miteff, managing only a 10 round UD over Ewart Potgieter. It was a good fight, but it ended at 2:12 in the 7th round as a “whistling left hook” from Cleveland brought that left Holman stunned who stayed up just long enough for Williams to crash in a “tremendous right hand wollop that brought Holman down. It turned out to be Holman’s last round in the ring. Both Cleveland and Holman are rated in the game data base. I built a schedule for Holman, finding a good majority of his opponents in my data base and ran some simulated fights and the results we very spot on for how he is rated. I noted in Holman’s bio his Class A HW rating by Ring in Feb 1958 even after loosing 6 of his last 7 fights. Williams despite beating Holman to run his record to 37-2 was still rated only in the Class A group. The Ring ratings that year in Feb 1958 had a top Group 1 tier of 6 fighters for the HW’s and another 9 in a next Group 2. Then came the Class A group. I didn’t do anything with Williams other than I updated some fight weight limits for both fights per current BoxRec records for both. I also added the link for a Wiki article for Williams that I thought was very good. So only reason I’ve attached files for them.

Our other matchup covered in this show in Houston on Oct 15, 1957 we see Light Heavyweights Tommy Sims who is early on in his very busy pro career against Dean Bogany, fighting for the 3rd time professionally. Sims, I rated in this LHW thread way back in July 2007. Gone through some updating here for you. Dean Bogany was fighting for the 3rd time in his career taking on Tommy Sims who stood in the ring with a 12-3-1 record thus far. Bogany’s career was interesting in that it started out with a so-so W10(KO 1) / L7(KO 2) / D2 record. After loosing 3 of 5 bouts in late 1959 and early 1960, he turned things to the better winning 8 in a row on the way to a W17(KO 8) / L2(KO 2) / D2 record the rest of his career. That spread included wins over Sixto Rodriguez, Sonny Ray, Bobby Stininato, and actually finishing his career successfully defending his California State LHW title in November 1963 against Roger Rouse. Three months earlier Bogany and Rouse fought to a 5 round technical draw. Bogany won the California title in January of that year. Why did his career seemingly abruptly after defeating Rouse and stringing together that 17-2-2 record in the second half of the career?? Or is there more to his career than recorded in BoxRec? He was rated a Class A LHW by Ring in their Feb 1964 issue annual ratings.

TITLE BOUT 2013: Bogany vs Sims was no contest at all. Bogany comes out quick landing a quick jab but then fails to land any punches with a flurry of follow up swings. Then lighting strikes at 0:54 into the round when Sims lands a short, clean hook and Bogany drops like he was shot and is counted out at 1:05 in the first round!! KO victory for Sims.
In October 1957 Cleveland Williams stops John Holman at the 2:12 mark of the 7th round in the scheduled 10 round bout. Here in out Title Bout replay, The Big Cat again stops Holman in the 7th round! This time the bout is called by the referee at the 2:40 mark after Williams had dropped Holman with a short, clean cross. Up through the first 6 rounds Holman had managed to stay on his feet and even managing to score winning rounds on a couple cards along the way, but Williams started connecting hard in the 6th round staggering Holman all around the ring and continued the barrage through the first couple minutes of the 7th before landing that cross that Holman just could not recover from. Real neat to see the results so close to the real thing, same round and within a half-minute of the actual time Holman was stopped in 57!

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Thursday 07 November 1957
City Auditorium
Omaha, Nebraska, USA
promoter Joe Smogye
boxer lbs record boxer lbs record
Billy Tyree 176 4 5 0 D Wayne Womochil 187 13 3 0 PTS 10/10
Heavyweight
Sonny Ray 172 9 5 6 W George Blackstone 173 2 5 1 TKO 4/6
Light Heavyweight
Lou Cappelano 136 3 1 1 W Will Harris 135 1 1 1 PTS 6/6
Elmer Shippe 150 0 2 0 W Harold McDonald 143 13 11 1 KO 5/6
Russell Grothe 195 0 3 0 W Jim Cowell 198 debut TKO 3/4
Heavyweight
JANUARY 1958 RING: Professional boxing was returned to the City Auditorium in Omaha, Nebraska by promotor Joe Smogye as some 2200 fans came in to see some heavyweight boxing. Local light heavyweight Billy Tyree and heavyweight Wayne Womochil put on the main event to the evening. The 11 pound lighter Tyree was able to go the distance with Womochil for a 10 round draw. The article on the fight by Charles Van Fleet mentions Womochil doing most of the leading and heavy punching in the fight but many of his swings were hitting nothing but air. Van Fleet noted that he’d always though Womochil could be a top heavyweight. “He has color, endurance, punch and a granite chin, besides an uncommonly fine physique.” He felt Womochil could be the type of puncher to take out an opponent with one punch but that he seemed to not take his profession that seriously to learn more and become that good heavyweight. Did find in the Feb 1958 and 1959 Ring Magazine annual ratings having Womochil ranked in the Class C Heavyweight group. From 1959 on through the rest of his career it tailed off dramatically trying to take on better caliber opponents that he just couldn’t match up to. Womochil was originally rated by David Myers. I’ve done some adjusting of that rating to some new play testing. The attached file includes David’s original rating and I’ve updated fighter details and bio info.

TITLE BOUT 2013: In our replay of Tyree vs Womochil on Nov 7, 1957 it’s another close 10 round bout, but this time Womochil takes away a split decision victory with the two judges going 96-92, 96-93 for the heavyweight Womochil while the referee leaned slightly for the light heavy Tyree 95-94. Tyree had the better of the fight in the earlier rounds including a 9 count take down of Womochil in the 3rd round as Billy landed a short uppercut, landing Wayne face first on the canvas. Womochil was able to get to his feet though at the count of 9. The two fighters then just kept trading off the initiative in the fight alternating controlling rounds. Then in the 9th, Womochil lands a huge hook and down goes Tyree at the half minute mark. He gets up in 8, and manages to get through the round but Womochil is winning on points landing more punches.

We got some more action to cover in Omaha on this November 1957 night but wanted to go ahead and post our coverage of the Tyree/Womochil encounter.

[Rocco Del Sesto]

JANUARY 1958 RING: In semifinal 6 round affair at Civic Auditorium in Omaha, Nebraska on Nov 7, 1957, light heavy weight matchup say Sonny Ray stop George Blackstone in round 5. It proved to be the last of a short career for Blackstone. Not much to know about Blackstone. I’ve include Ray’s file from the TB data base but updated with some bio info. Doing a search on the web I found a couple nice articles about Ray, one of them written by the LA Times in 1987 when Sonny was painting cars in Long Beach to eke out a living. Find out that Sonny started out as a baseball player playing the infield in a Chicago Cubs minor league in the late 1940s’. His baseball career didn’t amount to much and after spending 3 years serving in the Army over in Korea he returned home and decided to take up boxing.

TITLE BOUT 2013: In our replay fight, Blackstone manages to go the distance with Ray though Sonny wins by unanimous decision, 57-56, 57-55, 58-54. Blackstone managed to land a combination in the 2nd round that stunned Ray putting him down for an 8 count! Ray recovered though and fought back to put Blackstone down with a hook at the 2:12 mark in the 5th round. Blackstone gets up though in 7 and finishes out the fight.

[Rocco Del Sesto]

JANUARY 1958 RING: The opening four round bout on Nov 7, 1957 in Omaha a local heavy, Russell Grothe, “had too much all-round class for Jim Crowell, of Sioux City. Cowell did not come out for round three ending it a TKO for Grothe.

TITLE BOUT 2013: Russell Grothe won a majority decision over Jim Cowell in our refight with one judge and the referee scoring it 40-36 and 39-38 for Grothe with the other judge scoring it even, 38-38. The first three rounds were pretty much just maneuvering each other around the ring with some occasional punches attempted and neither doing much connecting. Finally, very late in the last 10 seconds of the 3rd round Grothe lands a sharp combination that stuns Cowell. Grothe then carried that initiative on into the 4th round and with Cowell showing definite signs of tiring, Grothe carried that last round on all three cards to carry the decision for him.

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Just to let everyone know I'm having game issues.

Started with the game crashing each time I'd try to auto schedule. This was happening on my main PC computer. I shifted to the MacBook Air where I had the game installed also. I didn't use it much because I have had the issue with it not wanting to create exported fighter files. Well went into it and could not believe it but got the same problem with the scheduler!!!!

So I unlicensed the Mac game, uninstalled it and then downloaded again a new set up to try reinstalling but now with that it's telling me when I run setup that it's not finding data to install with!!! Not sure what's going on. Frustrated as all get out!!!!!!

Just wanted yas to know I'd not abandoned everyone here again! Hope I can get this worked out.

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Well, decided to break out TB2.5 which I thankfully still had installed on my PC. Started up ok and so I've exported my complete data base from 2013 and imported it into 2.5. For the most part that went ok and it seems to be working OK. I was able to get auto schedule work fine to do my play testing of Murdoch and Jenkins.....So we'll keep things going with 2.5 for now until I can get things worked out, I hope, with 2013

Friday 11 October 1957
Moree, New South Wales, Australia
promoter Jeff McNeill
boxer lbs record boxer lbs record
Bob Murdoch 173 6 1 0 W Ross Jenkins 205 3 2 0 TKO 10/12
Heavyweight
vacant Australia - New South Wales State heavyweight title
referee: Ray Mitchell
Bob Piper 146 10 4 1 W Les Silk 143 6 5 1 KO 3/8
Welterweight

JANUARY 1958 RING: They called it the best heavyweight fight in Australia in a long time as promoter Jeff McNeill staged Bob Murdoch vs Ross Jenkins for the New South Wales State Heavyweight Title. Bob Murdoch’s birth name is Jock. I’ve created his file as Jock Murdoch. There is another Bob Murdoch from Australia that we’ll meet up with later. Ross Jenkins 10th round TKO loss to Murdoch in this fight is shown as his last in BoxRoc. A short 3-3-0 record either knocking out his opponent or being knocked out himself. His other two KO losses being to Allen Williams and Kitione Lave. Ray Mitchell who wrote the account of this fight for Ring Magazine served as referee in the fight. Jenkins’ “power punching” put Murdoch down twice in the second round. Murdoch got through that round and though shaken at different times in the fight, he suddenly in the 10th round connected with a right to Jenkins’ jaw and sending Ross to the canvas. Ross got up in 9, but referee Mitchell stopped the fight.

TITLE BOUT 2.5: With the move, back to 2.5 for the time being at least till I get my problems worked out with 2013, we’ll do our first replay matchup on 2.5 between Murdoch and Jenkins. The replay as close as you could maybe get on the score cards up through the first 11 rounds with Murdoch up 107-105 on two cards while the 3rd had it even at 106-106. While the fighters were alternating advantages through the first 6 rounds, then all three judges scored rounds 7, 8 and 9 all even 10-10 scores! Rounds 10 and 11 given to Murdoch while one judge split gave that MD to Murdoch through Murdoch through round 11. Through that first 11, each fighter was able to score points with each feeling the stings of his opponent’s hard punches. Jenkins had suffered a cut on the bridge of his nose earlier in the fight and was bleeding on and off. Right toward the end of the 11th round the two fighter’s heads clashed opening and widening the cut. Jenkins corner gets the cut closed for the moment to start the 12th, but Murdoch comes out with the determination to carry the fight and finish off Jenkins and begins connecting punches as Jenkins is losing steam. At the 1:26 mark Murdoch cranks up the hook and connects to Jenkin’s jaw stunning him. Then at 1:55 Murdoch throws a cross that scores to Jenkins head and now Jenkins is bleeding profusely from the cut on the nose. The referee now gets between the fighters and after looking at Jenkin’s cut with the ringside doctor, the Referee a the 2:01 mark calls the fight. Winner again by TKO Jock “Bob” Murdoch!

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by Rocco Del Sesto

Just to let everyone know I'm having game issues.

Started with the game crashing each time I'd try to auto schedule. This was happening on my main PC computer. I shifted to the MacBook Air where I had the game installed also. I didn't use it much because I have had the issue with it not wanting to create exported fighter files. Well went into it and could not believe it but got the same problem with the scheduler!!!!

So I unlicensed the Mac game, uninstalled it and then downloaded again a new set up to try reinstalling but now with that it's telling me when I run setup that it's not finding data to install with!!! Not sure what's going on. Frustrated as all get out!!!!!!

Just wanted yas to know I'd not abandoned everyone here again! Hope I can get this worked out.

Unfortunately, TB2013 has too many issues to discuss. So, few even bother. I still use 2.5 myself, Rocco.

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

Unfortunately, TB2013 has too many issues to discuss. So, few even bother. I still use 2.5 myself, Rocco.

Just posting quick to let everyone know I've not gone away. I'm dealing with computer and game problems. Had some problems even with 2.5. At this point I"ve gotten Parallels and Windows 10 loaded on my MacAir and loaded TB2013 onto it. Running, but I've got to get my data base now set up.

So be back around as quick as I can.

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Originally Posted by Rocco Del Sesto

Just posting quick to let everyone know I've not gone away. I'm dealing with computer and game problems. Had some problems even with 2.5. At this point I"ve gotten Parallels and Windows 10 loaded on my MacAir and loaded TB2013 onto it. Running, but I've got to get my data base now set up.

So be back around as quick as I can.

Well, I hope I'm back in business on TB! After initially transferring back to TB2.5 after all the problems with TB2013 and initially everything seemed ok, I then started having problems. Apparently after some Win10 update(s), 2.5 started giving me issues with constantly locking up constantly as I'd try and input fighters. Tried to go back to TB2013 loading a new copy of that on the PC, but I just was pulling my hair out with issues getting my database set back up. Guys not importing in or importing in with data screwed up. In the mean time I'd gotten an MacAir. I loaded Parallels on it with Win10. Had the install file for 2.5 and installed it on it and then surprised that through it I was able to get a license for it on line! But, same issues, locking up and just running slow and hard to deal with. I even tried the mac version of 2013 again, but again had issues with getting it installed. About ready to just say screw it all with TB as much as I like it and wanted to get back into this Forum to contribute fighters.

So then just this week I happened on the opportunity to attain an old laptop and a licensed version of WinXP. I loaded TB2.5 on it and licensed with the licensed I'd gotten on the Mac and messing around putting in some fighter data it seems to be working fine!! Yipeee.....! My only issue is this old laptop and XP i've not been able to get set up to my wireless at home. But, for now I'll just have to deal with transferring files to my PC to upload here. AT least I got 2.5 to work. Keeping my fingers and toes crossed it continues to work!!!! So hope I can be posting some things here soon again!