Questionable AI decisions

[MKG1734]

One bit of help I can offer is that if you let the AI set line-ups and replacements, it will not fill in a replacement spot where there is no player rated for this position available. Which will often lead to the problem above when there isn't a replacement set in the line-up's page. I Always set my replacement players and will put the most logical player in the slot, even if he's not rated at that position. I've never seen the AI override that. It won't shuffle the available players into their optimal defensive spots, as it should, but unless the situation is dire it will keep the AI from putting your back-up C into CF simply because he might have a better stick.

I understand your point; however, my issue with that is two things, specifically:
#1 (a): Doing so gives my team an unfair advantage over the AI that does not do this (I attempt to play on as even a playing field as possible with the AI in my personal games as a house-rule). I understand this does not apply to what you suggested, because your suggestion is valid. I just choose to play differently (personal preference).

#1 (b): Because the AI does not do this ... I feel it essentially ruins seasons. My reasoning is that, AI vs AI games have this happen. Therefore, an AI team can lose (or win) untold amounts of games due to the error in the AI-in-game logic for substitutions. I mean...I still play the game and choose to try to ignore the fact that the standings are not truly representative of what they might otherwise be with proper logic coding; however, it still is frustrating to think about. Hopefully I will have the time to constantly post this issue so that, perhaps, it may be tweaked/corrected for all to take advantage of in the future.

#2: Still, you have to remember, in the situation I described .... lets say the AI attempted to put the best offense on the field, which I assume is coded into the game from what is said.

Regardless, even in this situation - with the best offense on the field - the in-game AI should still then be checked to maximize the defense of those players on the field. The game is clearly not doing this (at least not well). The proof is in the common instance like the one I described: The game did not check to see that the backup utility INF was a 92 rated 2B and and 90 rated SS ... vs. ... the backup 2B who was a 84 rated 2B and a 0 rated SS and then proceeded to put the backup utility INF at 2B and the backup 2B at SS.

[Anyone]

Originally Posted by RchW

Showalter is considered a managerial genius by many people. He is, in fact, choosing offense over defense which is a core part of the OOTP "best batting lineup" design.

Then there's this quote from the article: "And Pearce played second, while more experienced second baseman Jimmy Paredes slotted in at DH."

So, in that game anyway, the Orioles took a defensive loss with no offensive gain: Paredes was in the batting lineup anyway; so he may as well play 2B instead of DH. Playing Pearce at 2B when Paredes was batting anyway is suggested to be to help him learn the position for future use, but you don't do that in major league games that count. Spring training or the minors, yes.

If in some games they manage to keep better hitters in the lineup by playing Pearce at 2B, a case can be made for it, if Pearce can even do a "poor" job (as opposed to a "horrendous" job) defensively.

In OOTP, playing someone out of position (even to get a better bat in the lineup) should only be done if the manager is pretty strongly on the "Favor Offense" side of the Offense/Defense slider. Showalter obviously is there, and I don't have the info to say whether or not he's right (when he's actually getting a better bat into the lineup; if he's using a better glove at DH, he's just wrong).

But a slider in the middle is supposed to do the "usual" MLB thing, so while the AI may be hard to get right, a slider in the middle (or certainly favoring defense) should lead to never playing someone out of position unless there's literally no one available who isn't out of position there.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Anyone

Then there's this quote from the article: "And Pearce played second, while more experienced second baseman Jimmy Paredes slotted in at DH."

So, in that game anyway, the Orioles took a defensive loss with no offensive gain: Paredes was in the batting lineup anyway; so he may as well play 2B instead of DH. Playing Pearce at 2B when Paredes was batting anyway is suggested to be to help him learn the position for future use, but you don't do that in major league games that count. Spring training or the minors, yes.

If in some games they manage to keep better hitters in the lineup by playing Pearce at 2B, a case can be made for it, if Pearce can even do a "poor" job (as opposed to a "horrendous" job) defensively.

In OOTP, playing someone out of position (even to get a better bat in the lineup) should only be done if the manager is pretty strongly on the "Favor Offense" side of the Offense/Defense slider. Showalter obviously is there, and I don't have the info to say whether or not he's right (when he's actually getting a better bat into the lineup; if he's using a better glove at DH, he's just wrong).

But a slider in the middle is supposed to do the "usual" MLB thing, so while the AI may be hard to get right, a slider in the middle (or certainly favoring defense) should lead to never playing someone out of position unless there's literally no one available who isn't out of position there.

Yet baseball expands rosters to 40 in whats probably the most important month of the season.

[t-bone shuffle]

Originally Posted by MKG1734

I understand your point; however, my issue with that is two things, specifically:
#1 (a): Doing so gives my team an unfair advantage over the AI that does not do this (I attempt to play on as even a playing field as possible with the AI in my personal games as a house-rule). I understand this does not apply to what you suggested, because your suggestion is valid. I just choose to play differently (personal preference).

#1 (b): Because the AI does not do this ... I feel it essentially ruins seasons. My reasoning is that, AI vs AI games have this happen. Therefore, an AI team can lose (or win) untold amounts of games due to the error in the AI-in-game logic for substitutions. I mean...I still play the game and choose to try to ignore the fact that the standings are not truly representative of what they might otherwise be with proper logic coding; however, it still is frustrating to think about. Hopefully I will have the time to constantly post this issue so that, perhaps, it may be tweaked/corrected for all to take advantage of in the future.

#2: Still, you have to remember, in the situation I described .... lets say the AI attempted to put the best offense on the field, which I assume is coded into the game from what is said.

Regardless, even in this situation - with the best offense on the field - the in-game AI should still then be checked to maximize the defense of those players on the field. The game is clearly not doing this (at least not well). The proof is in the common instance like the one I described: The game did not check to see that the backup utility INF was a 92 rated 2B and and 90 rated SS ... vs. ... the backup 2B who was a 84 rated 2B and a 0 rated SS and then proceeded to put the backup utility INF at 2B and the backup 2B at SS.

I follow you on all points. The AI's failure to be able to shuffle players to their optimal defensive position in-game is the unavoidable, inexcusable issue here, I wasn't trying to detract from that.

I've been around here a long time and two things come to mind. One is that my mind tells me that the in-game AI handled this properly in the old version (6.0, 6.5 and maybe before), though I wouldn't stake my life on it.

The other is that experience tells me that I don't like the chances of seeing this ever work as it should. I went to the trouble of reporting the failure to properly "re-shuffle" defensively in both 13 and 14 as a bug, and you can see what that has accomplished.

I'll only hope that if the issue continues, and users continue to notice it and complain, maybe the developer(s) will eventually make it right.

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by t-bone shuffle

I follow you on all points. The AI's failure to be able to shuffle players to their optimal defensive position in-game is the unavoidable, inexcusable issue here, I wasn't trying to detract from that.

I've been around here a long time and two things come to mind. One is that my mind tells me that the in-game AI handled this properly in the old version (6.0, 6.5 and maybe before), though I wouldn't stake my life on it.

The other is that experience tells me that I don't like the chances of seeing this ever work as it should. I went to the trouble of reporting the failure to properly "re-shuffle" defensively in both 13 and 14 as a bug, and you can see what that has accomplished.

I'll only hope that if the issue continues, and users continue to notice it and complain, maybe the developer(s) will eventually make it right.

We always look to improve things. We had in our mind to make an extra look through player substitution logic, but essentially ran out of time. I think for next year we'll take another look to improve things.

But keep in mind, it's incredibly hard to get "right". If we shift guys around for a more optimal positioning, we'll get people complaining about the AI using too many bench players, or that they ended up shifting 3 guys for a marginal upgrade. There's definitely room for improvement, but so much depends on who's on field and who's available, we'll try our best.

[Lou Gehrig]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

We always look to improve things. We had in our mind to make an extra look through player substitution logic, but essentially ran out of time. I think for next year we'll take another look to improve things.

Great news Matt. So is it safe to say these members can stop posting issues regarding this?

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

But keep in mind, it's incredibly hard to get "right". If we shift guys around for a more optimal positioning, we'll get people complaining about the AI using too many bench players, or that they ended up shifting 3 guys for a marginal upgrade. There's definitely room for improvement, but so much depends on who's on field and who's available, we'll try our best.

You're never going to please all the people all of the time.

[MKG1734]

So is it safe to say these members can stop posting issues regarding this?

Don't be mad that an issue was successfully pointed out and, hopefully, will be addressed.

I think it is beneficial for everyone that sees these issues to post them in the bug reports thread so that it becomes clear that it is something to work on.

Dyzalot created a great thread here that will advance the game.

[Painmantle]

There is a reason it isn't called "Astute Intelligence" It would be absolutely impossible to make the AI think like an actual human, then there is the fact that whats the correct decision to me may be the wrong decision to you. If this was an easy task we wouldn't be having this conversation for the umpteenth time.

Note to the masses: If you have to create a thread because you last one got "Locked" the OOTP staff is aware of the situation

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by Painmantle

There is a reason it isn't called "Astute Intelligence" It would be absolutely impossible to make the AI think like an actual human, then there is the fact that whats the correct decision to me may be the wrong decision to you. If this was an easy task we wouldn't be having this conversation for the umpteenth time.

Note to the masses: If you have to create a thread because you last one got "Locked" the OOTP staff is aware of the situation

The last one got locked because another member decided to use that thread to further the idea that every game is predetermined and that the sim is basically a joke. It had nothing to do with the kinds of issues I was raising.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

But keep in mind, it's incredibly hard to get "right". If we shift guys around for a more optimal positioning, we'll get people complaining about the AI using too many bench players, or that they ended up shifting 3 guys for a marginal upgrade. There's definitely room for improvement, but so much depends on who's on field and who's available, we'll try our best.

^^This^^

Also the fact that to be realistic some questionable things must happen in-game. A perfectly tuned AI (not possible I know) would become boring over time. Human managers in real life rarely use optimal lineups or optimal substitution patterns because seniority contract value and player comfort at certain positions still dictate who plays and where on many teams.

It is an established fact that real life teams do not swap IF positions. Starting SS do not play 2B and 3B do not play 2B or vice versa in any significant way. Even backup IF tend to play one position predominantly. Last season only 5 of 30 backup SS and 2B played significant time at both positions. So in real life a starting SS will not be moved to another position and replaced with a better fielding backup even if that is theoretically optimal. It shouldn't happen in OOTP either.


See this linked post.

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ml#post3818738

[Biggio509]

Whereas I agree the problem may be as simple as choosing the SABR versus traditional lineups is making a bit too severe of an impact. Lots of things go into this. It could be the ratings versus stats weight. All of this editable but if default is coming up with unrealistic scenarios too often it should be tweaked. It may be as simple as tweaking UI ratings or it may take significant coding. Only the devs really know that.

In the mean time setting the lineup selection to traditional and maybe putting AI Evaluation with a little less emphasis on ratings may help the problem. I always thought the default settings were too ratings heavy. It bases more on potential than what the player is actually doing. By potential I don't mean potential ratings but rather ratings reflect what a player could potentially do in a season.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by RchW

^^This^^

Also the fact that to be realistic some questionable things must happen in-game. A perfectly tuned AI (not possible I know) would become boring over time. Human managers in real life rarely use optimal lineups or optimal substitution patterns because seniority contract value and player comfort at certain positions still dictate who plays and where on many teams.

It is an established fact that real life teams do not swap IF positions. Starting SS do not play 2B and 3B do not play 2B or vice versa in any significant way. Even backup IF tend to play one position predominantly. Last season only 5 of 30 backup SS and 2B played significant time at both positions. So in real life a starting SS will not be moved to another position and replaced with a better fielding backup even if that is theoretically optimal. It shouldn't happen in OOTP either.


See this linked post.

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ml#post3818738

They certainly make those kinds of moves in the outfield though. The Red Sox would move someone like Victorino to center from right if Allen Craig came in to replace the current center fielder. They wouldn't put Craig in center and leave Victorino in right.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

They certainly make those kinds of moves in the outfield though. The Red Sox would move someone like Victorino to center from right if Allen Craig came in to replace the current center fielder. They wouldn't put Craig in center and leave Victorino in right.

OF are more mobile and the real life data supports it.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by RchW

OF are more mobile and the real life data supports it.

I expect you would also see it with some third basemen like Cabrera. I'm sure if Miggy was playing third and his team replaced their first baseman with a guy that can play third, Cabrera would move to first and the new guy would move to third.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

I expect you would also see it with some third basemen like Cabrera. I'm sure if Miggy was playing third and his team replaced their first baseman with a guy that can play third, Cabrera would move to first and the new guy would move to third.

Never ever use Detroit when discussing intelligent defensive moves.

[t-bone shuffle]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

We always look to improve things. We had in our mind to make an extra look through player substitution logic, but essentially ran out of time. I think for next year we'll take another look to improve things.

But keep in mind, it's incredibly hard to get "right". If we shift guys around for a more optimal positioning, we'll get people complaining about the AI using too many bench players, or that they ended up shifting 3 guys for a marginal upgrade. There's definitely room for improvement, but so much depends on who's on field and who's available, we'll try our best.

Thanks for the reply, and your ongoing efforts. My apologies for failing to mention that while the above and other things can cause the occasional frustration, it never (for me) deters from the enjoyment (for very long), and that the expectations for the product come from the fact that it's such a great experience, and has been for many years.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by t-bone shuffle

Thanks for the reply, and your ongoing efforts. My apologies for failing to mention that while the above and other things can cause the occasional frustration, it never (for me) deters from the enjoyment (for very long), and that the expectations for the product come from the fact that it's such a great experience, and has been for many years.

I agree for the most part. I won't claim that I don't lose any enjoyment from some of these things happening but the fact that I pour 20+ hours per week into this game is pretty good evidence that I love it.

[ezpkns34]

I'm glad the AI makes some questionable decisions, hopefully it offsets some of my team's questionable decisions

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

I expect you would also see it with some third basemen like Cabrera. I'm sure if Miggy was playing third and his team replaced their first baseman with a guy that can play third, Cabrera would move to first and the new guy would move to third.

Cabrera doesn't move. Look at his defensive GP and GS and CG on baseball reference. He comes out of games which I hope we agree is what we should see in OOTP.

Miguel Cabrera Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

For example the last time Cabrera was a full time 3B he did not play 1 inning at 1B. The previous year to that, he played 3 innings.

Player movement in MLB is less than people think.

[Honorable_Pawn]

Originally Posted by Toast

Typical response throughout for Wolf and his lackey followers ...
Toast

First of all, The Wolf is a friend and helped build this awesome community. I, and many others, resent being called a lackey. I find it very insulting and completely out of order.


The atmosphere around here is friendly, cordial, and mature. Your inability to conform to our high standards of conduct will not end with you enjoying the benefits of a friendly community.


You are in the wrong forum, my friend. Maybe you should adapt or go away.