Left Handed 2B,SS,3B

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by mrbill

Probably a faux pas but, I read a whole page of responses, and this should STILL be a solution that'd make everyone happy.

I'd vote for it, with one change: any left-handed fielder placed at 2B, SS, or 3B automatically has his error % dramatically increased and his arm strength dramatically reduced from within the program itself, so that anyone trying to cheat that way would be automatically penalized.

That way anyone could put who they want at 2B/SS/3B, but they'd have to pay the real-life price to do it.

[mrbill]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

I'd vote for it, with one change: any left-handed fielder placed at 2B, SS, or 3B automatically has his error % dramatically increased and his arm strength dramatically reduced from within the program itself, so that anyone trying to cheat that way would be automatically penalized.

That way anyone could put who they want at 2B/SS/3B, but they'd have to pay the real-life price to do it.

Yeah...that's probably what Markus should do if he has a little more time. That's actually a fairly troubling problem with OOTP now, nothing stops a LH throwing OF from learning 3B in the minors and learning it quite well.

In one online league, 3 players are rated at SS that throw LH, two of them with fielding ratings better than my SS last year. 6 play 2B well, and 14 play 3B.

WHOA - A left handed throwing 3B won the gold glove last year! That's a problem!

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by mrbill

Yeah...that's probably what Markus should do if he has a little more time.

That's no more than ten minutes of coding. Markus should just do it.

Originally Posted by mrbill

That's actually a fairly troubling problem with OOTP now, nothing stops a LH throwing OF from learning 3B in the minors and learning it quite well.

That's exactly the kind of nonsense that the game needs to be programmed to penalize. Anyone who chooses to more-or-less-cheat by playing a left-handed-fielding 2B/SS/3B needs to be required to pay a very steep defensive bill to do it.

[imation]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

I'd vote for it, with one change: any left-handed fielder placed at 2B, SS, or 3B automatically has his error % dramatically increased and his arm strength dramatically reduced from within the program itself, so that anyone trying to cheat that way would be automatically penalized.

That way anyone could put who they want at 2B/SS/3B, but they'd have to pay the real-life price to do it.

101% wrong.

[mrbill]

Originally Posted by imation

101% wrong.

101% unsupported by any data from the past 100 years that says LH throwing 2B/3B/SS should be able to field at the same level?

So there's some people (a small minority) that want to run hyper realistic pre 1914 baseball leagues. Maybe a LH throwing IF works in that situation, but yet, there's no data still to make an accurate model of how much it hurts.

There's a LOT of people who like to run modern MLB-like leagues, and there's plenty of data that says in the major leagues today, you just can't throw with your left hand (that is, the absence of anyone actually doing it). What's worse, in those leagues, you can just slide a LH throwing LF to 3B and he'll pick it up quite well, which is an actual bug in the game, it gives you more flexibility in your lineup than you should be able to have. Those LH throwing OF should have 0% chance at playing anything but 1B in the IF.

You can't make everyone happy all the time, but in this case, its quite clear how to make most people happy, and that's MD's solution.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by mrbill

101% unsupported by any data from the past 100 years that says LH throwing 2B/3B/SS should be able to field at the same level?

So there's some people (a small minority) that want to run hyper realistic pre 1914 baseball leagues. Maybe a LH throwing IF works in that situation, but yet, there's no data still to make an accurate model of how much it hurts.

There's a LOT of people who like to run modern MLB-like leagues, and there's plenty of data that says in the major leagues today, you just can't throw with your left hand (that is, the absence of anyone actually doing it). What's worse, in those leagues, you can just slide a LH throwing LF to 3B and he'll pick it up quite well, which is an actual bug in the game, it gives you more flexibility in your lineup than you should be able to have. Those LH throwing OF should have 0% chance at playing anything but 1B in the IF.

You can't make everyone happy all the time, but in this case, its quite clear how to make most people happy, and that's MD's solution.

Exactly. But you will always have people who will want to be able to continue to cheat and pay no penalty for doing so.

[imation]

Originally Posted by mrbill

101% unsupported by any data from the past 100 years that says LH throwing 2B/3B/SS should be able to field at the same level?

So there's some people (a small minority) that want to run hyper realistic pre 1914 baseball leagues. Maybe a LH throwing IF works in that situation, but yet, there's no data still to make an accurate model of how much it hurts.

There's a LOT of people who like to run modern MLB-like leagues, and there's plenty of data that says in the major leagues today, you just can't throw with your left hand (that is, the absence of anyone actually doing it). What's worse, in those leagues, you can just slide a LH throwing LF to 3B and he'll pick it up quite well, which is an actual bug in the game, it gives you more flexibility in your lineup than you should be able to have. Those LH throwing OF should have 0% chance at playing anything but 1B in the IF.

You can't make everyone happy all the time, but in this case, its quite clear how to make most people happy, and that's MD's solution.

Not to mention the fact that this game is set to play all over the world, in ficitonal worlds and not even licensed for major league baseball. Maybe for some people fictional is better than anything else. I would hate the game to be handcuffed because of MLB precedent. If it was an opition to turn off or on that would be great. But that takes time coding. Why take time coding something that is not a problem in the game and is just a cosemetic issue?

[mrbill]

Originally Posted by imation

Why take time coding something that is not a problem in the game and is just a cosemetic issue?

Originally Posted by Me 5 minutes ago

What's worse, in those leagues, you can just slide a LH throwing LF to 3B and he'll pick it up quite well, which is an actual bug in the game, it gives you more flexibility in your lineup than you should be able to have. Those LH throwing OF should have 0% chance at playing anything but 1B in the IF.

As you can see, its not just cosmetic, its an actual bug.

And, even though its fictional, its got to be based on something. There's no example league anywhere on earth where a 2B can throw left handed and turn a double play. You're asking for a fictional world where the laws of physics and human anatomy don't apply, that's not what OOTP needs to allow to be a good baseball sim. In fact, as most of us argue, allowing that is not only not a positive for most users, but its actively a negative too.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by mrbill

As you can see, its not just cosmetic, its an actual bug.

And, even though its fictional, its got to be based on something. There's no example league anywhere on earth where a 2B can throw left handed and turn a double play. You're asking for a fictional world where the laws of physics and human anatomy don't apply, that's not what OOTP needs to allow to be a good baseball sim. In fact, as most of us argue, allowing that is not only not a positive for most users, but its actively a negative too.

Exactly.

[jaxmagicman]

Originally Posted by mrbill

As you can see, its not just cosmetic, its an actual bug.

And, even though its fictional, its got to be based on something. There's no example league anywhere on earth where a 2B can throw left handed and turn a double play. You're asking for a fictional world where the laws of physics and human anatomy don't apply, that's not what OOTP needs to allow to be a good baseball sim. In fact, as most of us argue, allowing that is not only not a positive for most users, but its actively a negative too.

Wrong again. It happened in Major League Baseball. It happens in College. It happens in High School. It happens all over the world outside of Major League baseball. IF it were something that could be turned off and on I would be with you.

[mrbill]

Originally Posted by jaxmagicman

Wrong again. It happened in Major League Baseball. It happens in College. It happens in High School. It happens all over the world outside of Major League baseball. IF it were something that could be turned off and on I would be with you.

It "happened" 100 years ago in the MLB, and the factual accurate of even that seemed somewhat disputable.

Has anyone here said it happens in college or HS? And are we giving up major league accuracy because once in a while it happens in some high school?

Can you at least point me to something, anything, that actually documents that its physically possible for a LH 2B to turn a DP at a competitive speed, other this outside of other posts in this thread?

And, no one is saying that it can't be edited in, its just that there's no basis in any documented baseball in the last 100 years that suggests creating or allowing LH throwing 2B/3B/SS at the highest level should be the default. It's not going to ever be "off", but I'm just saying you'll have to consciously edit it to have it in your game.

[jaxmagicman]

Don Mattingly and , Mike Squires both have played third base in Major League baseball. Mattingly also played 2nd base.

[Left-handed Badger]

Originally Posted by thefish7

I played with a lefty 3b in college, and was a right handed 1b. The only reason we used him there was because we had no one else (14 on the roster), but I can tell you, it was a major disadvantage at that level. He had a good arm, but not only was he slower to make the throw because of awkward footwork, but the awkward footwork caused even his best throws to have something akin to slider action. As soon as we got in a freshman who was a 3b, he took over the job and the lefty moved to the OF.

RH 1B is just as much as a disadvantage in terms of awkward throws, except, you almost never need to make as quick of a throw as a ss/3b would have to make... but when you do have to make one you have a couple of goofy footwork procedures you can go thru, both which add time to the throw. I think a lefty 2b would be okay for most throws they need to make, unless they really have to range way over beyond 2b, in which case the throw to for anyone is a hard one... but I've never played with a lefty 2b, so I really don't know.

As for the game, I don't mind having lefty ss or 3b, as long as the sim accounts for their slower throws (maybe an effective arm rating? or soemthing like that). On the flip side, RH 1B should be penalized on some throws as well.

Maybe, it is harder for righty throws from first. But 1b dont have to make all that many throws. Heck, in baseball history guys who could barely throw have been hidden there. I know on the 3-6-3 DP they have to make a quick throw. But the ability to make DPs come way more often from the other IF positions. And the problems with a lefty 2B is, how the heck could they turn the DP.

[jaxmagicman]

George Sisler played 3rd.

[mrbill]

Originally Posted by jaxmagicman

Don Mattingly and , Mike Squires both have played third base in Major League baseball. Mattingly also played 2nd base.

Don Mattingly - http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mattido01.shtml

That's 3 games at 3B and 1 game at 2B (with no PO, A or DP)

Squires rang up an impressive 14 games. And judging by only 9 A, he probably didn't start all those 14 games.

Keep looking.

[mrbill]

Originally Posted by jaxmagicman

George Sisler played 3rd.

2 Games at 3B, and 2 games at 2B too!!

Getting warmer...

[jaxmagicman]

Originally Posted by mrbill

Don Mattingly - http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mattido01.shtml

That's 3 games at 3B and 1 game at 2B (with no PO, A or DP)

Squires rang up an impressive 14 games.

Keep looking.

I am just showing that it has happend. So you might as well allow in the game. I just think that we can both get our way if it is an option. I would hate for it just not be there.

I know I said this last night but I am done now. It needs to be there and for the few of you that just can't see the value in it (I mean imagine if you had Scott Rolen at third and a left-handed SS who had some good range, you would shut the left side of the infield down. Nothing would get up the middle and nother would get in the hole. Boy that would be a tough infield.) let there be an option to turn it off.

[DrArbiter]

Originally Posted by mrbill

2 Games at 3B, and 2 games at 2B too!!

Getting warmer...

I was going to reply, but, look, it's obvious that jax is just playing a game of "move the goalposts".

Originally it was that it was simply "prejudice" that kept us from seeing lefties at those positions.

When compelling physical and selection arguments were given why that's not the case, we started hearing about lefties in the 1800s being regulars at those positions

When it was pointed out that we're not even sure they were lefties, and, anyway, playing barehanded, hand preference matters less anyway, now we're down to recent players who play one or two games in an emergency situation. Admittedly, Squires wasn't only an emergency situation, but you won't find a person who would call that experiment a success.

Of course, Squires also goes against the original hypothesis that "the only reason it isn't done is because noone's tried it." It was tried 20 years ago now with a player trying to find any way to stay in MLB, and adjudged a failure.

Further, take Donnie Ballgame. I noted earlier today that Hal Chase was considered an outstanding infielder, yet he played only slightly more than token amounts at 2b. Mattingly was widely acclaimed as one of the best, if not the best, defensive first basemen of his generation -- and he got into only token emergency appearances elsewhere. You don't think the Yankees wouldn't've loved to move him to another position so they could have stuck a lesser fielder at first?

Which brings us to the only rhetorical device left when all the data is firmly stacked against your argument: you just keep moving the goalposts. Eventually everyone else gets tired of it, gives up, and you declare victory.

Look, the original question was whether lefties should carry actual ratings at 2b/ss/3b as players who can play those positions "regularly." The answer - based on both observation of basically all leagues of reasonable talent level in the post-glove era - is "no." That's not to say that you couldn't put a lefty there in an emergency - but he'd be playing out of position, and wouldn't be rated at a comparable position, so his defense should be a disaster. Actually, given that, I'm not sure I care if a lefty has an *additional* penalty at those positions relative to a righty -- if his defense is atrocious there, that ought to be enough of a penalty.

Amusingly, though, a day and N posts after having "left" the thread, we still hear from jax.

[mrbill]

Originally Posted by jaxmagicman

I am just showing that it has happend. So you might as well allow in the game. I just think that we can both get our way if it is an option. I would hate for it just not be there.

Gah! It's happened as a fluke, probably because of injuries or the need to pinch hit late in games and defensive penalties were paid. You've found 10 games played by LH throwing 2B, out of the 200K-300K games played in the last 100 years of the MLB. That's 0.005%.

So, there's a 99.9995% reason to never create players with any ability to play 2B/3B/SS if they throw with their left hand. And its even more important not to let LH throwing players learn (through the game engine) to play those positions with "normal" range and arm, as it allows greater lineup flexibility than there should be. (See the Mattingly example in the above post of how that'd affect the game)

It should always be OFF, and then you have the ability to hit that Edit button and change it, if you want a super human 2B that can spin at the speed of sound to turn the double play.

Why not agree with that proposal? Do you really value 2B that are created or that learn 2B throwing left handed? If they were gone, would you ever miss it? Wouldn't you just edit one player every 20 years to throw with their left hand? And wouldn't you edit their arm down to 1?

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by jaxmagicman

Don Mattingly and , Mike Squires both have played third base in Major League baseball. Mattingly also played 2nd base.

Talk about clutching at straws!

Now you're just spouting nonsense trying to defend the indefensible.