Competitive balance discussion

[spleen1015]

Reading the discussion here and in the competitive balance thread, it's pretty apparent that there are some folks playing PT that just can't grasp the fact that someone has to lose.

If your team is good enough to be stuck in the diamond level, then your team is where it belongs. If you're not losing enough to be relegated or winning enough to be promoted then that's where you belong.

I don't understand the logic. It sounds like people want to be relegated to gold and win. Well, what happens when you win? You get promoted back to diamond. If you don't win, then you're in the same boat. You're stuck in gold until you make your team better.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

Reading the discussion here and in the competitive balance thread, it's pretty apparent that there are some folks playing PT that just can't grasp the fact that someone has to lose.

If your team is good enough to be stuck in the diamond level, then your team is where it belongs. If you're not losing enough to be relegated or winning enough to be promoted then that's where you belong.

I don't understand the logic. It sounds like people want to be relegated to gold and win. Well, what happens when you win? You get promoted back to diamond. If you don't win, then you're in the same boat. You're stuck in gold until you make your team better.

I agree with you, but I also think some teams were swept up in the rush to get teams into the upper levels. They are teams that weren't good enough to win at the level they were out and yet were promoted. Tanking is not the solution nor is complaining about it, I just suggested that it happens. The solution is that more and more powerful teams are working their way up through the ranks to the Perfect levels and eventually if a team doesn't belong, it will be popped out to a lower league. If they continue to improve, they'll stay. In the meantime, just enjoy the ride with what you have.

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by Kushiel

I agree and so far I have seen zero. The people complaining about competitive balance only have one mind set when it comes down to it. That mindset revolves around if I am not winning it is broken. Everybody should be equal in talent and teams. So their fixes are:

1. Limit spending in some capacity.
2. Let me tank when I rise to a league where I am the one getting the butt whoopins' instead of receiving them.
3. Open all kinds of new special theme leagues with caps of all sorts so I can play how I want.

There are no fixes in this thread. It all boils down to people not liking the spending capacity of others. Every fix listed by people complaining consists of limiting other players.

So please be sure to repeat yourself over and over again calling every idea stupid. It's a great discussion.

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by <Pion>

<sigh> Never called anyone stupid or made a personal attack. But as the saying goes, don't let the truth get in the way of a good story. Saying there hasn't been a good suggestion (one that I've thought was worth supporting) is lightyears from calling it stupid.

I take it you're not reading much of it.

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by SayHey1

There is one....and its the solution that the devs apparently are hoping we all select.



Spend money on packs or PP.

It's a completely losing strategy that anyone with a brain figures out since someone always spends a lot more than you. I won't be spending any more. It was fun pretending to be a whale at silver when I bought Mookie and Trout, but hell if I'm going to spend $1000 to be on equal ground with other teams at perfect.

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

Reading the discussion here and in the competitive balance thread, it's pretty apparent that there are some folks playing PT that just can't grasp the fact that someone has to lose.

If your team is good enough to be stuck in the diamond level, then your team is where it belongs. If you're not losing enough to be relegated or winning enough to be promoted then that's where you belong.

I don't understand the logic. It sounds like people want to be relegated to gold and win. Well, what happens when you win? You get promoted back to diamond. If you don't win, then you're in the same boat. You're stuck in gold until you make your team better.

The problem is when your team is good enough to get promoted to perfect, but not anywhere good enough to compete. There are no choices when every upgrade costs $100 other than to spend $100 which ain't happening because I don't waste money.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

The problem is when your team is good enough to get promoted to perfect, but not anywhere good enough to compete. There are no choices when every upgrade costs $100 other than to spend $100 which ain't happening because I don't waste money.

What was the team's record at Diamond? Did they make the playoffs, and if so, how far did they get?

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

I take it you're not reading much of it.

I read and I do my best to never misrepresent what someone says.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

The problem is when your team is good enough to get promoted to perfect, but not anywhere good enough to compete. There are no choices when every upgrade costs $100 other than to spend $100 which ain't happening because I don't waste money.

If your team is good enough to get promoted to perfect then that's where you should be. That's the way this game works. You can't stay in diamond and win forever. How is that fair to the teams in diamond that aren't good enough to win because your team is there?

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

So please be sure to repeat yourself over and over again calling every idea stupid. It's a great discussion.

No where did he said anyone's ideas were stupid. He just disagrees with them.

Please be sure to repeat yourself over and over again putting words into their mouths.

Seriously dude. No one has called anyone or their ideas stupid. Give it a rest.

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

No where did he said anyone's ideas were stupid. He just disagrees with them.

Please be sure to repeat yourself over and over again putting words into their mouths.

Seriously dude. No one has called anyone or their ideas stupid. Give it a rest.

There are about a dozen people who disagree with everything anyone says and they take turns telling everyone that every idea is bad. Come up with one single good idea or else we all know that they think PT is absolutely perfect when it comes to their huge competitive advantage since they spend without limit and nothing should ever be changed. What is funny is that I saw Orcin complain about how he can either spend $500 or never compete at perfect in another thread. That's exactly what I've talked about. But now he's still too stubborn to agree with me that I had a point even though he came to the same conclusion. There is a wall that decent players cannot get past and they become stuck there.

[Mormo]

Originally Posted by Weaseltail

I actually have the silver team in your div (Juneau Silver Stars). The reason I created the team was because I thought the OVR ratings weren't a good gauge of player ability and I wanted to see if I could design a competitive team using only silver players (except SP, I learned pretty quickly other than Barker silver SP's aren't great).

You have a good roster and I think some of the issue is RNG-related, but your point is spot on. There are a lot of highly-rated, expensive players that aren't very good, but it's really hard for newer players to know this and avoid spending money on them.

Bro you are the reason for my entire rant. I just started playing and you are clearly better than me at this. I was really disappointed so few people thought my point was valid.

I looked at your team and you focused on what wins games, like anybody would. Extra points for embarrassing the rest of us in the process lmao.

I just wanted to point out that the FIRST ITERATION of the overall rating algorithm was completely horrible and I spoke up. I'm sure everyone else noticed and began to exploit it.

I don't think it's fair to entice players to seek pretty gold and diamond cards and not have them be superior at all. I insist that is very deceptive and not everyone is a pro at the game.

Once again thanks for speaking up.

[matingly23]

Originally Posted by boxner1

Except the abandoned whale teams in 19 will still be left in Perfect. God help you if you get promoted there. AFAIK your team is not deleted unless you access it at least X times per X period, so those whales will live until 19 itself dies.

That's fine, you can grind to a point where you have a legit shot at beating them after some time. To where it's at least mathematically possible and interesting to watch the games. Watching slaughter is a waste of time.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

There are about a dozen people who disagree with everyone and they take turns telling everyone that every idea is bad. Come up with one single good idea or else we all know that they think PT is absolutely perfect when it comes to their huge competitive advantage since they spend without limit and nothing should never be changed. What is funny is that I saw Orcin complain about how he can either spend $500 or never compete at perfect in another thread. That's exactly what I've talked about. But now he's still too stubborn to agree with me.

The game is totally P2W. That's pretty fundamental with this type of game and that's not going to change. OOTP came up with a new, interesting way to play OOTP and make money at the same time.

I don't think people are stupid for wanting that to change. I'm just baffled they think its going to or should change when that's not the way this game works.

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

The game is totally P2W. That's pretty fundamental with this type of game and that's not going to change. OOTP came up with a new, interesting way to play OOTP and make money at the same time.

I don't think people are stupid for wanting that to change. I'm just baffled they think its going to or should change when that's not the way this game works.

Then it should be stated as such, and this thread locked and make the topic bannable. Then everyone can just quit and leave if they don't like it and the circle jerk can continue without interruption. But for now, this thread is open and discussion consists of people either having good ideas or venting and a bunch of people who don't want anything to change trying to shut every single person down from discussing anything about competitive balance since they obviously do not want balance.

[atabakin]

It's possible to hold both opinions that the game is not completely competitively balanced and that it's fundamentally fine the way it is. Will I ever spend enough to be able to win a Perfect championship? No. Is that okay? Yes.

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by atabakin

It's possible to hold both opinions that the game is not completely competitively balanced and that it's fundamentally fine the way it is. Will I ever spend enough to be able to win a Perfect championship? No. Is that okay? Yes.

Will you continue having fun if you get stuck in perfect without being able to compete at all?

[matingly23]

Originally Posted by <Pion>

Hate to repeat what I said, but since you're repeating...

If they have 25 Perfect (or highly priced diamonds0 players, how long will you have to "grind' to get players as good as that? If I recall the math someone else did, it won't be in two years. So no, I would bet on the game being retired before that happens. Plus with the people not putting money in, where are these players going to come from? Not from the AH I would think.

There will still be players on the AH, but the prices would drop to closer to what you can get from the AI.

What you seem not to grasp, repeatedly, is that being slaughtered by whales ruins the game completely. Anything that helps to avoid/overcome that is a plus.

How long would it take before teams have a legit shot to beat whale teams? Not two years. I don't mind being a slight underdog for a while, it's much better than having absolutely no chance. Plus idle teams are predictable teams.

Right now it won't matter how much you grind, there will be "special" packs sold, new cards, always there will be something to keep the whales reaching for and to keep them elite for their $$. That is how games like this work, but there are usually ways around it.

For example, in DDO pretty much every server is infested with high level guilds that spend tons of $$. But there are some servers that are more or less barren, some are meant for beta testing. Those servers are worth playing on. Yes there aren't as many items on the AH, and guess what, the prices are also much lower.

[Mormo]

Originally Posted by ASURay

Most of the Live diamond SPs are better than Dierker, but not by much. Syndergaard is the only one that is a noticeable improvement. Pretty well all of the historical diamond SPs are quite a bit better than Dierker, though. Take a look at the average auction price. The will generally give you an idea. Most of the Live diamond SPs sell for 4K-6K while Syndergaard sells for 10K+ last I checked.

In my personal experience Syndegaard is straight trash compared to other diamond pitchers. When I checked, other Syndegaards were bad too. My 90 Rick Reuschel and 89 Brandon Webb were better every year.

[atabakin]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

Will you continue having fun if you get stuck in perfect without being able to compete at all?

That's the current situation with my first team. It's not ideal, but I don't feel like I'm entitled to or deserve anything more.