Joe Mauer...HOF yay, or nay?

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

Forcing us to accept that he is a catcher isn't helping your cause. He sucked so hard as a catcher, that they made him a DH/1B.

A career OPS of .832 as a designated hitter is awful. He just isn't a good enough hitter to justify a pure hitters position, and his fielding is so awful that he lost his catcher position.

Just to clarify things for you a bit.......

You're debating with a poster who thinks a player that ranks 145th all time @ a position, in the most critical stat to qualify for that position, is the 7th best ever @ that position in the 150+ yrs of that position.

Hopefully, you won't waste as much time as I did. I'm just here to help.

[CMH]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

I agree with this. A career OPS of .832, for a SHORT career, just isn't getting it done. Jim Edmonds' was .901, with a lot more at bats, and tremendously better defense, and I don't see a parade to get him into the HoF.

Edmonds should be in the Hall though.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Just to clarify things for you a bit.......

You're debating with a poster who thinks a player that ranks 145th all time @ a position, in the most critical stat to qualify for that position, is the 7th best ever @ that position in the 150+ yrs of that position.

Hopefully, you won't waste as much time as I did. I'm just here to help.

Yea, we should instead be debating the Hall worthiness of Bob Boone, obviously.

[Jeffy25]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

Forcing us to accept that he is a catcher isn't helping your cause. He sucked so hard as a catcher, that they made him a DH/1B.

A career OPS of .832 as a designated hitter is awful. He just isn't a good enough hitter to justify a pure hitters position, and his fielding is so awful that he lost his catcher position.

No, his bat was soo good and valuable and they had him under a very heavy contract that they wanted to preserve him.

His defensive numbers were fine for a catcher.

[Jeffy25]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

Forcing us to accept that he is a catcher isn't helping your cause. He sucked so hard as a catcher, that they made him a DH/1B.

A career OPS of .832 as a designated hitter is awful. He just isn't a good enough hitter to justify a pure hitters position, and his fielding is so awful that he lost his catcher position.

Also on this point, a DH with a .832 OPS

DH's all time have a .767 OPS
Catchers all time have a .682 OPS

You think he is awful as a hitter?

When he caught, he was an elite hitter. When he moved to 1B/DH. He was slightly better than average/neutral, but creating the compiling values.

His career was short as a catcher when compared to all time greats, but sticking around for 3-4 years and getting some compiling stats can offset that.

[Jeffy25]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

I agree with this. A career OPS of .832, for a SHORT career, just isn't getting it done. Jim Edmonds' was .901, with a lot more at bats, and tremendously better defense, and I don't see a parade to get him into the HoF.

Do you know anything about positional adjustments?

Also, total PA's and era?


Mauer was a catcher, which is always the worst hitter on the diamond. On the defensive spectrum. It goes, catcher, then shortstop, then centerfield. These are supposed to be your three worst hitters, in that order. Mauer was ahead of Edmonds on the spectrum.

So you have to adjust that.

Also, era. Edmonds played in a juiced ball era. He has a career 132 wRC+ in 7980 PA. Mauer is at 124 in 7584 PA.

Edmonds was a better hitter, but it's not as extreme as some would believe if they would look at traditional numbers.

Mauer will likely play a lot longer than Edmonds, hitting at that higher value for longer.

Edmonds is also, arguably, deserving of the Hall. His entire issue is length of career (missed so much time to injuries early on). If Edmonds had that slash and glove and got another 1500 PA, he'd be in. And there are great arguments now for he, Lofton, Jones, and Reggie Smith to all be in.

[Jeffy25]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Just to clarify things for you a bit.......

You're debating with a poster who thinks a player that ranks 145th all time @ a position, in the most critical stat to qualify for that position, is the 7th best ever @ that position in the 150+ yrs of that position.

Hopefully, you won't waste as much time as I did. I'm just here to help.

It's the most critical to YOU.

Please understand that.

[Jeffy25]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

His career OPS+ of 126 is very, VERY low for a future Hall of Famer.

It's better than Yogi Berra, Kirby Puckett, the same as Johnny Bench

The ONLY advantage Mauer had is his defensive position as a catcher. In this position, his defense sucked so hard (minus career dWar) that he was moved away from being a catcher, into a prime offensive position, DH. I can argue that he sucks as a DH as well..limited power.

No, he didn't suck defensively at catcher. He was an adequate defensive catcher. Not special, not bad.

The elephant in the room is that Mauer, just once, drove in more than 85 runs. This is TERRIBLE. Yeah..Piazza did it 11 times.

RBI's are a team stat, and every thing to do with opportunities.

[Airdrop01]

The Hall of Didn’t Suck. Very exclusive club.

Motto: “Adequacy is our hallmark. Not showing off. Not slacking. The meaty middle of the curve!”

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by Jeffy25

It's better than Yogi Berra, Kirby Puckett, the same as Johnny Bench



No, he didn't suck defensively at catcher. He was an adequate defensive catcher. Not special, not bad.


RBI's are a team stat, and every thing to do with opportunities.

If you look at Yogi Berra, he is VASTY superior to Mauer. Look at the number of times he was in the top five for various categories. If he would have played 154 games a year, I can easily see 3-5 MVPs. Dude was a GREAT player.

...unlike Mauer.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

Bill Madlock, Don Mattingly, Keith Hernandez, Jim Edmunds,

They all have 3-5 amazing years, and then an insufficient number of "filler" years that they would have needed to be in the HoF.

Madlock:
-- 3 time All Star
-- Lifetime .305 hitter, with over 2000 hits
-- Won FOUR batting titles
-- Career OPS+ of 123
-- Career OPS of .807
-- Career WAR of only 41, with 49 oWar, and minus 8 dWar
-- No Gold Glovers. Terrible fielder

Mattingly:
-- 6 time All Star
-- Lifetime .307 hitter, with 2153 hits
-- Won ONE batting title
-- Career OPS+ of 127
-- Career OPS of .830
-- Career WAR of only 40, with 47 oWar, and minus 6 dWar
-- Nine Gold Gloves

Keith Hernandez:
-- 5 time All Star
-- Lifetime .296 hitter, with 2182 hits
-- Won ONE batting title
-- Career OPS+ of 128
-- Career OPS of .821
-- Career WAR of 46, 45 oWar, and +1 dWar
-- Eleven Gold Gloves
He's in the Hall of Very Good

Jim Edmunds:
-- Four time All Star
-- Lifetime .284 hitter, with 1949 hits
-- No batting titles
-- Career OPS+ of 132..best of this bunch
-- Career OPS of .903
-- Career WAR of 57...significantly higher than the rest
-- Eight Gold Gloves


Let's now look at Mauer stats:
-- Six time All Star
-- Lifetime .308 hitter, with 2025 hits
-- Three batting titles
-- Career OPS+ of 126
-- Career OPS of .832
-- Career WAR of 53
-- Three Gold Gloves

If you put Mauer in, RIGHT NOW, then you have to put in all five, plus another 15 players I can mention...Dave Parker and Harold Baines, Dale Murphy, Sheffield, Crime Dog, Jim Rice....they're everywhere.

IF Mauer plays another five years, with decent stats, then maybe. He will not get 3000 hits, he will not have a career .300 average, he will not be an All Star again, and his cumulative stats just aren't anywhere near high enough.

His career OPS+ of 126 is very, VERY low for a future Hall of Famer.

His career OPS of .832, as compared to Edmunds' .901, clearly doesn't measure up.

The ONLY advantage Mauer had is his defensive position as a catcher. In this position, his defense sucked so hard (minus career dWar) that he was moved away from being a catcher, into a prime offensive position, DH. I can argue that he sucks as a DH as well..limited power.

The elephant in the room is that Mauer, just once, drove in more than 85 runs. This is TERRIBLE. Yeah..Piazza did it 11 times.

Mauer is in the Hall of Very Good..in no way, shape or form a Hall of Famer.

Not sure where you're getting your overall WAR numbers from. You're getting the oWAR and dWAR correct for everybody, but the overall WAR numbers are...off. I'll round to the nearest number for each:

Madlock: 49 oWAR, -9 dWAR, 38 rWAR, 35 fWAR

Mattingly: 40 oWAR, -6 dWAR, 42 rWAR, 41 fWAR

Hernandez: 46 oWAR, 1 dWAR, 60 rWAR, 59 fWAR

Edmonds: 57 oWAR, 6 dWAR, 60 rWAR, 65 fWAR

Mauer (through games of May 27, 2018): 53 oWAR, 3 dWAR, 55 rWAR, 49 fWAR

Where rWAR = BB-Ref WAR, and fWAR = fangraphs WAR

I would definitely stump for Edmonds' and Hernandez' inclusion in the Hall, but not Madlock or Mattingly. As for Mauer's position there is only one question to ask: Where did he accrue the most value as a player? Mauer is a catcher for the same reason Ernie Banks is a shortstop and Rod Carew is a second baseman (despite the fact that both Banks and Carew accrued more playing time as first basemen). I think Mauer's a lot closer than some in this thread, and I think his lifetime OBP (.391) has a lot to do with it, to go with having some great offensive seasons while playing catcher. I also have a question re: Mauer's defense at catcher. Was it that his defense "sucked so hard" or was it recurring concussions, and wanting to move a terrific athlete/face of the franchise from behind the plate to a spot where there is much less of a concussion risk before those concussions cost him his career? Before answering, consider this.

[Jeffy25]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

If you look at Yogi Berra, he is VASTY superior to Mauer. Look at the number of times he was in the top five for various categories. If he would have played 154 games a year, I can easily see 3-5 MVPs. Dude was a GREAT player.

...unlike Mauer.

You see, you say all of this like it's unknown or something.

Advanced stats, clearly show Yogi to be the superior all time catcher.

But you are so hell bent on finding chinks on the armor to argue against Mauer, that you are ignoring very broad things, and that those that aren't so easily dismissive of him do know about his flaws.

I haven't seen anyone say he belongs in the Hall right now. Most people are saying it's going to take some more, 3-4 years of good hitting and durability for it to even be a possibility.

Yogi was a very good defensive catcher, and caught a ton more than Mauer. But their bats were pretty equivalent in total value. OPS+ is only park and league adjusted OPS. That's it.

Yogi also won some MVP's he probably shouldn't have.

55 should have been Mantle, 54 should have been Minoso or Williams probably. I do see his argument for 51 though (though Garver and Williams should be given strong consideration).

Some times reputation proceeds output.

[CMH]

Why even use Yogi as an example?

That's like arguing an outfielder doesn't deserve the Hall because Ted Williams was much better.

The Hall may not be the Hall of very good but it's also not the Hall of the legendary elite.



Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[Jeffy25]

Originally Posted by CMH

Why even use Yogi as an example?

That's like arguing an outfielder doesn't deserve the Hall because Ted Williams was much better.

The Hall may not be the Hall of very good but it's also not the Hall of the legendary elite.



Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

Yogi was only used in the OPS+ comp. He was one of several names.

[pilight]

Originally Posted by Jeffy25

It's better than Yogi Berra, Kirby Puckett, the same as Johnny Bench

Those players all won championships and played well in the post-season, Mauer...not so much.

[Jeffy25]

Originally Posted by pilight

Those players all won championships and played well in the post-season, Mauer...not so much.

I guess Joe Mauer should have been drafted by the Yankees instead

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by pilight

Those players all won championships and played well in the post-season, Mauer...not so much.

This is pretty laughable when you watch what is currently happening in this regard to Mike Trout's career.

[pilight]

Originally Posted by Jeffy25

I guess Joe Mauer should have been drafted by the Yankees instead

I'm just saying that post-season heroics (or at least solid play) are the sort of thing that can push marginal players over the hump. Mauer doesn't have that.

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by pilight

I'm just saying that post-season heroics (or at least solid play) are the sort of thing that can push marginal players over the hump. Mauer doesn't have that.

What Mauer did have was a stronger peak (he accumulated more WAR than Berra through their Age 30 seasons). Berra was great AND had longevity. Mauer was even better, but wasn't able to sustain the peak. If people want to hold Mauer's shortish peak against him I get that, what I am seeing too much of here is a glossing over of how great that peak was.

[ihatenames]

As a catcher Mauer rates very well for hall of fame inclusion. As a first baseman not so much. Considering by retirement he will have more time at first than catching I think it will be a difficult fight for him. He was very good during his peak though.