Questionable AI decisions

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

McCutchen was running. Speed = 10, running = 15 (1-20)

I don't see a problem there. That play happens constantly irl, even against guys with elite arms. It would be a much bigger problem imo, if it didn't ever happen in game.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

I don't see a problem there. That play happens constantly irl, even against guys with elite arms. It would be a much bigger problem imo, if it didn't ever happen in game.

I agree it should happen. I'm just questioning it happening with a very good, veteran runner. If it happened to a guy with 13 speed and 7 running, I would think that's plausible. I'm less convinced with a guy who is rated as a 15 runner and is 33 years old.

Also think about the mechanics of how this is happening. Are we seeing a guy ignoring the third base coach and gambling to get to third or is this the third base coach waving him on, perhaps showing a flaw in the base coaches in game logic?

[Dyzalot]

The pbp indicated it was "close". This isn't an isolated incident. This happens way too much.

[awick]

I agree that it happens way too much. I just saw Brett Gardner (veteran, very fast, excellent base runner) get thrown out trying to stretch a single into a double, running on a center fielder who can't throw (Curtis Granderson).

Oh wait! That was on television last night...

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

I agree it should happen. I'm just questioning it happening with a very good, veteran runner. If it happened to a guy with 13 speed and 7 running, I would think that's plausible. I'm less convinced with a guy who is rated as a 15 runner and is 33 years old.

Also think about the mechanics of how this is happening. Are we seeing a guy ignoring the third base coach and gambling to get to third or is this the third base coach waving him on, perhaps showing a flaw in the base coaches in game logic?

Good runners get thrown out as well. Hopefully less often, but they're good, not perfect.

As for the mechanics, I dunno. But in real life players will get thrown out running through a base coaches sign and they'll get thrown out even when the coach waves them on at times.

So that it happens in game is not an ai shortcoming, imo.

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

The pbp indicated it was "close". This isn't an isolated incident. This happens way too much.

If that was true then it'd be an issue, but you'd need a lot of data to figure that out. Far more than just posting a few plays here. To convince Markus a change is needed you'll have to mine the game logs for data and get several seasons worth of info that shows an issue. Just saying it happens way too much isn't going to sway anyone that doesn't already agree with you, and certainly not the people who can actually make changes.

Not trying to be critical by saying that, you've posted some good stuff that may need to be tweaked. But without far more data this one seems like a total non-starter to me.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by awick

I agree that it happens way too much. I just saw Brett Gardner (veteran, very fast, excellent base runner) get thrown out trying to stretch a single into a double, running on a center fielder who can't throw (Curtis Granderson).

Oh wait! That was on television last night...

Did he do it in a game where they were down multiple runs in the 9th?

[Dyzalot]

Bottom of the sixth, down three runs, AI leaves the starting pitcher in to hit with the bases loaded and two outs. He had thrown 85+ pitches. It was also opening day so everyone was rested.

[Dyzalot]

AI decides to pinch hit for Arcia with Herrmann....

[Dyzalot]

Bring lefty in to face a lefty then remove him before the next lefty hitter to bring in a righty, who also just happens to be the last "rested" reliever left in the pen.

[Dyzalot]

First time I've seen this weird AI decision.

[Dyzalot]

I'll just let this one speak for itself.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

I'll just let this one speak for itself.

My bad.

[Okay]

FWIW, I play in online games (edit: leagues) and usually watch replays of all my team's games. There are constantly games in which, after some pinch hitting and/or running that late in the game there are, for example, two fielders playing positions that the other fielder is better at. I mean a 8 rated SS playing 2nd (where he is rated 3) and a guy playing 2nd, who is rated much lower for second than for SS. This also happens in the Of. I'm almost like screaming at the game: Why the heck you got those fielders that way? If I could, I'd step in and switch them. To me, there is no way this game's AI is programmed to make the best defensive decisions. No way.

[MKG1734]

FWIW, I play in online games and usually watch replays of all my team's games. There are constantly games in which, after some pinch hitting and/or running that late in the game there are, for example, two fielders playing positions that the other fielder is better at. I mean a 8 rated SS playing 2nd (where he is rated 3) and a guy playing 2nd, who is rated much lower for second than for SS. This also happens in the Of. I'm almost like screaming at the game: Why the heck you got those fielders that way? If I could, I'd step in abd switch them. To me, there is no way this game's AI is programmed to make the best defensive decisions. No way.

100% agree. I posted the EXACT same issue last year ... no changes noted this year as I constantly see this issue. Now that I've seen someone else post it ... I will start watching games more often in order to continue to post this issue.

[Okay]

erased, so it won't detract from my above post

[Leo_The_Lip]

I've long complained about the OOTP AI using guys out of position when there were 'better' alternatives staring it right in the algorithm. However, Buck Showalter's actual, real life choice of starting Steve Pearce at second base and Jimmy Paredes, a card-carrying utility infielder, at DH boggled my noggin:

Steve Pearce Is Playing Second Base | FanGraphs Baseball

So is Showalter the template for the OOTP AI, or does he now have an implant chip in his brain, coded my Markus? Either way, it seems The Singularity is upon us.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Leo_The_Lip

I've long complained about the OOTP AI using guys out of position when there were 'better' alternatives staring it right in the algorithm. However, Buck Showalter's actual, real life choice of starting Steve Pearce at second base and Jimmy Paredes, a card-carrying utility infielder, at DH boggled my noggin:

Steve Pearce Is Playing Second Base | FanGraphs Baseball

So is Showalter the template for the OOTP AI, or does he now have an implant chip in his brain, coded my Markus? Either way, it seems The Singularity is upon us.

Showalter is considered a managerial genius by many people. He is, in fact, choosing offense over defense which is a core part of the OOTP "best batting lineup" design.

[MKG1734]

Originally Posted by RchW

Showalter is considered a managerial genius by many people. He is, in fact, choosing offense over defense which is a core part of the OOTP "best batting lineup" design.

I hope this comment is not directed (and expected to be taken) as being part of the above conversation with regard to where players are positioned on the field. Because if it is, then it certainly makes zero sense. And if it isn't ... then I'm misinterpreting your comment and I'm sorry.

You say:

choosing offense over defense which is a core part of the OOTP "best batting lineup" design

If there are two players who have already been substituted into the game, and they're both playing the field at the same time ... OOTP continually (and I will start posting these as I start playing games when I have time, as I did last year) will play two players completely out of logical positioning. This has nothing to do with fielding the 'best batting lineup.' Both players are in the game, already. OOTP should THEN optimize the fielding positions of the players on the field.

For example (from my post last year):

I have a long-running dynasty running (currently in year 2032 after starting in 2014). I will only watch a game played (as GM) when I consider it an important game (usually an elimination-type game).

Recently, in a game #7 scenario I watched my team's manager make a move which was questionable at best....but seemed like the AI should easily NOT make this decision.

The game went into extra innings, and after several substitutions, my backup infielders were in the game. I have a backup utility INF who is good at every infield position - but best at 2B [by a slim margin], and a backup second baseman who is ONLY able to play 2B.

Sadly, my AI manager put my Utility INF at this best position of 2B (even though he was nearly equally as good at SS and 3B) but left my backup 2B [who, again, can ONLY play 2B] at a totally unfamiliar position of SS. This led to disaster as a ground ball hit to the SS ended the game on a 2 out error. This is game #7 of the World Series. Not a spring training game.

Why would the AI do this? Is there a measure to help this not happen that I am not aware of?

There was one response that made sense:

The Wolf: "Sounds like the AI programming needs work"

[RchW]

Originally Posted by MKG1734

I hope this comment is directed (and expected to be taken) as being part of the above conversation with regard to where players are positioned on the field. Because if it is, then it certainly makes zero sense. And if it isn't ... then I'm misinterpreting your comment and I'm sorry.

You say:
If there are two players who have already been substituted into the game, and they're both playing the field at the same time ... OOTP continually (and I will start posting these as I start playing games when I have time, as I did last year) will play two players completely out of logical positioning. This has nothing to do with fielding the 'best batting lineup.' Both players are in the game, already. OOTP should THEN optimize the fielding positions of the players on the field.

I responded to Leo's post on Showalter/Pearce and feel that the meaning is crystal clear.

[t-bone shuffle]

Originally Posted by MKG1734

I hope this comment is directed (and expected to be taken) as being part of the above conversation with regard to where players are positioned on the field. Because if it is, then it certainly makes zero sense. And if it isn't ... then I'm misinterpreting your comment and I'm sorry.

You say:
If there are two players who have already been substituted into the game, and they're both playing the field at the same time ... OOTP continually (and I will start posting these as I start playing games when I have time, as I did last year) will play two players completely out of logical positioning. This has nothing to do with fielding the 'best batting lineup.' Both players are in the game, already. OOTP should THEN optimize the fielding positions of the players on the field.

For example (from my post last year):


There was one response that made sense:

This is a long standing issue. I've complained about this very thing as far back 13, and again in 14, see http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...me-sub-ai.html. The stock explanation/response is that the AI will look to optimize offense first/always.

The bottom line is that while the in-game strategy AI has consistenty improved over the past 3 or 4 versions, Roster Management, both in-game and organizational has stagnated in spots leaving really big holes like the one here. I'd never think to understand the coding difficulty here (or anywhere else for that matter), or suggest that it could be changed with ease. And i do see less of this type of thing.

One bit of help I can offer is that if you let the AI set line-ups and replacements, it will not fill in a replacement spot where there is no player rated for this position available. Which will often lead to the problem above when there isn't a replacement set in the line-up's page. I Always set my replacement players and will put the most logical player in the slot, even if he's not rated at that position. I've never seen the AI override that. It won't shuffle the available players into their optimal defensive spots, as it should, but unless the situation is dire it will keep the AI from putting your back-up C into CF simply because he might have a better stick.