A poll about women's / mixed leagues

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Athletics17

The last I remember baseball mogul has the option for women in it.

At least 2008 did. Unless you just avoided it and went on with your life.

Yeah, it has a "Year Women Enter Baseball" value in league setup, which everybody I know who plays BM sets to 0 (never). I kid the BM guys right back about that.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by GMLoophole

Anyone who thinks MLB The Show is "real baseball" is probably beyond help, and people who laugh at you for what game you play are probably not worth your time, or energy, to care about.

Oh, I don't know. Two of them are my brothers.

[GMLoophole]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Oh, I don't know. Two of them are my brothers.

Still not sure what the problem is here. Do they buy the game for you, or prohibit you from playing it because of all the dorks on this board? I could beat them up for you if that will help.

[Muzamba]

Originally Posted by Chicagofan76

theres plnety of lesbians that would go see it, where do u think WNBA and NFP gets 80%% of its fans base from.

Actually, this brings up an interesting point.

It is true that the WNBA and the WPSL (or whatever the major women's soccer league is called now) have at least had some degree of success attracting female fans to their respective sports. And the market goes way beyond lesbians. They also draw the interest of a lot of young girls who play basketball or soccer.

So the question is, what if by allowing female players to be represented in OOTP, this game could get the attention of women/girls? I'm sure there are some young ladies out there who are fans of games like The Sims, who also happen to play high school softball. What if by adding some relatively simple code, Markus could allow the option of female players and THAT results in, say, a dozen girls buying OOTP?

I realize that may be a stretch, but ask yourselves this: Would it be worth it if it meant adding a different demographic - small as it may be - to the customer base? Or is it ultimately more important that OOTP maintains its "integrity" and doesn't stoop to such gimmicky shenanigans just to (possibly) sell a few more copies?

[Muzamba]

It's funny. Once again, I find myself defending an idea I have no real interest in. Guess I should have been an ACLU lawyer, huh? (Uh-oh, did I just out myself as a card-carrying commie? )

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I hate bad ideas and bad things

Ok, but again, that's YOUR OPINION. What makes your judgment of what's "bad" any more valid than anyone else's? Maybe you think it's just semantics, but what's so wrong with simply saying, "I don't personally like the idea." The fact is, you don't speak for - at last check - about 55% of the people who voted on this topic. But even if 95% agreed with you, it doesn't make the other 5%'s opinion wrong. It's just their opinion.

Originally Posted by The Wolf

...if it isn't in real baseball, then I do not want it in my baseball simulation. Ever.

Not a single person has suggested that they want to see female players "forcibly intergrated" into OOTP. All they seem interested in is the OPTION. So you wouldn't have to have it in YOUR baseball simulation. Ever.

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

This is becoming a very political thread. The way I see it, the ones who are supporting this ridiculous feature are the politically correct leftist types who were taught in school that everything and everyone is equal all of the time.

I don't disagree that this discussion has taken on political overtones, although I think it's more of a social/cultural issue than a truly political one. Unfortunately, some people tend to turn these disagreements into political issues, as happened with a previous (now mercifully closed) thread on this topic.

I'm not sure what kind of "political correctness" you're perceiving here. If you're somehow implying that this has to do with gender equality, or the idea that some people want women in the game because "everyone is equal", I think I can safely speak for everyone on this side of the issue and say that this has absolutely nothing to do with it. The conflict in this thread didn't start with people saying they didn't like the idea. It started when people began calling other people's ideas and opinions "bad" and "ridiculous".

If standing up for other people's right to share an idea without being ridiculed for it is being politically correct, then I'm happy and proud to say that I'm politically correct.

Here's the thing: Last year, I compiled all the suggestions from the "Suggestions for Future Versions" thread for Markus, and believe me, there were some doozies. But I didn't arbitrarily cherry pick the ones I thought were worthy and discard the rest. I passed them all along, no matter how impractical, implausible, or impossible they were. That's because it wasn't my place. I figured if Markus saw a reason to consider an idea I found silly, we would have a chance to debate its merits during the development stage.

And speaking of Markus...

What's interesting is that you never see Markus or Andreas responding to someone's wacky suggestion by tearing them down. Apparently, it's good business practice to be civil. And whether we like it or not, those of us who have been around for the past decade are probably seen as de facto representatives of the OOTP community, if not the company itself, by new members. So I believe it's in everyone's best interest that we try to be respectful to one another and set a good example. I don't really care - nor do I think Markus really cares - whether other people think we're sci-fi dorks or not, but I can assure you that he doesn't want people to think OOTPers are obnoxious jerks. And THAT is what this whole thing boils down to. Be polite. Be respectful. Have civil disagreements. Offer constructive criticism. Plain and simple "golden rule" stuff.

Now, if anyone feels this thread is turning into a distracting political argument, perhaps we should continue it over in the OT Debates sub-forum. FWIW, I really have no interest in this. But frankly, I just don't see this thread changing course and becoming a productive discussion at this point. If it's allowed to be prolonged, I'll gladly continue to take a stand on this subject. However, I don't see the point in keeping such a thread open, lest it devolve into an unseemly and wholly unnecessary ideological tug-of-war.

[MimesisBTG]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

No, that's not the point. That's the PROBLEM.

It's a problem for you because you don't want these sorts of "fantasy" leagues. It may be seen as a benefit by others, though, who want to make leagues that, for example, include women.

It seems to me like this is an argument about what the focus of OOTPBB should be. On the one hand, there are those who would prefer OTTPBB to think of itself as a "traditional" baseball simulation to the exclusion of options that seem unlikely (or impossible) in the real world. If this is your vision for the game, then indeed the option to make a women's league might seem "silly." On the other hand, there are those who would prefer (or at least wouldn't object to) the option to create "non-traditional" leagues. Many in this camp use the customization options already present in the game to create these sorts of leagues.

Ultimately, these decisions about the direction of the game are obviously in the hands of the developers, but it is interesting for me to hear about the different ways that people play the game. While the game presently isn't designed around these "non-traditional" leagues, there are obviously those who use the game's customization options to play it that way. I personally play mostly present-day fictional leagues that I design myself, but more power to those who employ their creative energies to make more "non-traditional" leagues. Cool stuff.

Just my

[kingcharlesxii]

I honestly don't get why anyone would be against adding an option, most of the "fantasy/sci-fi" options weren't explicitly created for that type of thing but were enabled by the game's great flexibility, which is the biggest plus for me versus the competition. It's not like I asked Markus to create a Viking league back in the day, I made the name files myself and since the game was flexible to the start year and other options, I could do that on my own.

Basically, if the game is made flexible, everyone can play what they want, whether is real baseball, robots, historical or (the most boring option by far to me) replays. More happy customers = more sales = new versions with new features. It's a win-win. If OOTP ever becomes MLB: The Show but with text, that's the day I quit buying and playing.

[The Wolf]

Muzamba, you tell me that my opinion is my opinion, but that you, on the other hand, can speak for everyone on your side of the issue? Not listening to you ever again.

Mimesis, this is "Out of the Park BASEBALL," not "Out of the Park Sports RPG (now with hobbits and women!)." There's a difference.

Well, at least there's supposed to be one.

[The Wolf]

Flying Squirrel - Oddly enough, what many of us on the reality-based side dream about is MLB The Show with an OOTP engine.

[The Wolf]

I still haven't had an answer to this question: why isn't reality-based baseball enough?

[Muzamba]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Muzamba, you tell me that my opinion is my opinion, but that you, on the other hand, can speak for everyone on your side of the issue? Not listening to you ever again.

Considering that you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge that this argument is about civility and politeness and NOT whether an idea is good or bad, it honestly doesn't sound as if you ever really were listening to me.

But ok, fair enough. I'll let the others speak for themselves.

To refresh everyone's memory, here's the statement Wolf seems to be referencing...

Originally Posted by Muzamba

I'm not sure what kind of "political correctness" you're perceiving here. If you're somehow implying that this has to do with gender equality, or the idea that some people want women in the game because "everyone is equal", I think I can safely speak for everyone on this side of the issue and say that this has absolutely nothing to do with it. The conflict in this thread didn't start with people saying they didn't like the idea. It started when people began calling other people's ideas and opinions "bad" and "ridiculous".

If this was a misrepresentation of anyone else's position on this issue, please let me know and I will happily and humbly admit I was mistaken, retract my statement, and apologize for overstepping my bounds.

But Wolf, it is somewhat telling that you would single out this one statement in my post among everything else that was said. I'm not sure if this would be labeled as displacement or rationalization, but whatever it is, it's ignoring the gist of the argument... that no one here - save for Markus (who would likely never do it) - has the right to call someone else's idea "bad" or "ridiculous".

Anyway, feel free to have the last word on this, as I'm closing up shop for the night.

Or - here's a novel concept - maybe we can all just accept one another's right to have our own opinion and leave it there. If you need to use a negative tone to express yourself, it's not like anyone's gonna change your mind.

Just know that any time I happen to notice board members disrespecting other board members, I'm gonna chime in and call them out on it.

[Muzamba]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I still haven't had an answer to this question: why isn't reality-based baseball enough?

Why is fantasy-based baseball too much?

-out-

[Carplos]

Originally Posted by Muzamba

Why is fantasy-based baseball too much?

Because people will make fun of us and words hurt.

[Chicagofan76]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

This is becoming a very political thread. The way I see it, the ones who are supporting this ridiculous feature are the politically correct leftist types who were taught in school that everything and everyone is equal all of the time.

U seriously need to get to know me better if u think that with me.

[Chicagofan76]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Exactly. Threads like this are why people I know both online and offline laugh at us for playing OOTP. "At least Baseball Mogul/SOM/Diamond Mind/Action PC/MLB The Show/whatever is about REAL BASEBALL," they will post or IM me or say to me, "and not about hobbits/Vikings/weird fictional worlds/robots/Ghana/women/whatever."

The problem is that we have a vocal minority who appear to believe that this IS a role-playing game and not a baseball simulation and who lobbies Markus that way. And they also start threads like this one.

You're right, though, it really is just silliness.

Baseball Mogul has women in it buddy, they even had pictures of various women ...if u played far enough into the future say after 2025 women started coming in. Tracy Kennedy made the HOF as a SP when I played Mogul I added her to my league in HH and soon to my Endor league on OOTP.

Part of what makes OOTP great is the ability to pl;ay fictional, if u r past 2010 in OOTP 11 u r playing fictional. If your league doesnt have real players u r also playing fictional. If u have a 3rd team in major city that already has 2 teams like moving the Dodgers back to Brooklyn u r playing fictional. If u added the DH to the NL or took it away from the AL u r playing fictional.

[Chicagofan76]

Wolf as for me the only reason I play OOTP is so I could do my Endor League in full, and also my ABF league. If OOTP did not have the option of "fantasy" league, I and probably half this board would go out but a PS3/XBox and play The Show, or I would have stuck to High Heat 2003. Now while i dont play modern, since technically the online league I am in would be considered fantasy in 2013. I do play a solo historical league amd have played 5 single season replays.
What I dont get Wolf, is while I see your point on the subject, u r so adamantly against us who want to play "fantasy" leagues of any sort...and I did say I wasnt for Markus adding women to the game unless the coding process is something easy to do.

As to not having women added to BM I had forgot that was an option but I believe the default was yes not 0.(dont know which yr)

Whats wrong with saying u r not for the option and leaving it at that instead of blasting people in this thread?
We are about 5 pages past where this thread should have ended.

[jmm8356]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Exactly. Threads like this are why people I know both online and offline laugh at us for playing OOTP. "At least Baseball Mogul/SOM/Diamond Mind/Action PC/MLB The Show/whatever is about REAL BASEBALL," they will post or IM me or say to me, "and not about hobbits/Vikings/weird fictional worlds/robots/Ghana/women/whatever."

The problem is that we have a vocal minority who appear to believe that this IS a role-playing game and not a baseball simulation and who lobbies Markus that way. And they also start threads like this one.

You're right, though, it really is just silliness.

If this isn't a role playing game, why are there manager identities?

Any well-developed and immersive simulation is, almost by definition, a role-playing game. ("Put yourself in the pilot's seat / captain's chair / Joe Torre's shoes!")

In other words, 'fantasy' does not equal 'role-playing' does not equal 'science fiction'. Since the game explicitly supports fictional baseball universes, I do not understand all the "hate" for someone else's chosen fiction.

If you don't like my fantasy, stay in your own universe!

[jmm8356]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I still haven't had an answer to this question: why isn't reality-based baseball enough?

Why should it be "enough"? Why should anything ever be "enough"? Just because you're content in your universe(s) doesn't mean the rest of us should conform to your... I think I have to go with "ideology" here...

There is no such thing as "enough". Also, there is no spoon.

P.S. Isn't it a lot of effort being a lone Wolf? I get tired just thinking about it...

[Tony M]

In response to the thing about it being "Out of the Park BASEBALL" and not "Out of the Park RPG" - you could say it's "Out of the Park BASEBALL" and not "Out of the Park MLB" so why should it JUST cater for the MLB crowd?

Anyway, hopefully Markus gets the Blernsball option into the game this year - the multi-ball option is sadly missing from my 31st century sims!

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by David Watts

If Markus was to add women to the game, won't he have to completely rewrite the play-by-play?

Some bits of it maybe.

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Flying Squirrel - Oddly enough, what many of us on the reality-based side dream about is MLB The Show with an OOTP engine.

Exactly. That might be the only time in this thread we agree.

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I still haven't had an answer to this question: why isn't reality-based baseball enough?

Why does it have to be enough? It's personal preference.