Note From An All-Time Heavyweight Tournament

[Jersey-Jim]

Joe Louis vs. Sonny Liston
LOUIS KO13

[Jersey-Jim]

Muhammad Ali

By M. Cox

Was there ever a better Muhammad Ali than the one who fought on March 8, 1971? I challenge my readers to take a close look at the film of the Joe Frazier-Muhammad Ali world heavyweight championship match fought on that date. I have watched this film many times, including several times just recently. There are some important factors the careful analyst should make note of concerning this fight.

In a comparison to the 1960’s Ali, the 1971 version was more filled out and physically stronger than the Ali of 1966 or ’67. Ali weighed about 202 for his ’66 fight against Henry Cooper, by the time of his fights with Ernie Terrell and Zora Folley in ’67 he was 212. Against Frazier in ’71 Ali weighed 215 only a few pounds more, but his upper body musculature looks far more impressive than that of the 60’s version.

Consider that Ali was less than 2 months away from being 28 years old, having just hit his 29th birthday Jan. 17, 1971. Ali was still very close to his absolute physical prime as a fighter. It is not fair to say that the Ali who fought Frazier was past his peak, ill prepared or suffering from rust. Ali had two tune-up fights before facing Frazier, one of them a 15 round knockout of Oscar Bonavena. It was the only time in his career that Bonavena, who twice went the distance with Frazier, was ever stopped. Ali was not suffering from poor timing against Frazier, nor was he judging distance improperly, or lacking punching effectiveness, which are the usual signs of a fighter who is affected by lack of good training. The film bears this out clearly.

When did Ali ever look better than he did in the first five rounds of the ‘71 Frazier fight? Produce the film where Ali ever looked better. Ali’s punching accuracy was superb. He was sitting down on his punches and he never hit harder. The Ali of the second round was as dominant as I ever saw him. He couldn’t miss. Ali swept the early rounds of the fight. If you watch the film one would never know that Ali was coming off a lay off. Perhaps had Ali never went into exile his stamina may have been greater, but Ali never looked better in any of his other fights than he did on that night.
In all honesty, when did Ali ever go out to totally destroy a foe of such caliber ever before? Against Liston he was young, he boxed, he moved and he made old man Liston look even older than he was and it seemed as if they were moving in different time zones. But Ali did not hit as hard, nor was he as physically strong in the clinch as the Ali of ’71. Ali went after Cleveland Williams, but that was a mercy killing. Williams was not the same fighter he was in previous years due to the fact that he had a bullet lodged in him from a shooting incident. Ali tortured Terrell, he had the speed and the accuracy, but did he not hit him with the power and authority that the Ali of ’71 would have.

Ali fought a great fight against Frazier. Ask yourself would a peak Ron Lyle hit Joe Frazier harder than the right hands Ali hit Frazier with that night? Ali's punches did not lack proper timing or distance but instead were not only properly thrown but fast, accurate and powerful shots. Ali may have never thrown more consistent hard punches at any other time in his career.

Some will contend that Ali did not dance for 15 rounds like the 60’s version, but the truth is Ali would never have been able to dance like that against prime Frazier. Frazier came in too fast and was too good at cutting the ring. Frazier, probably more so than any other heavyweight champion was the most persistent at applying non stop pressure for 3 minutes of every round. Frazier’s aggressive bobbing and weaving style would have given any version of Ali fits just as he did in all of their actual fights. One must realize that during the 60's Ali never faced a fighter who could slip his jab and press him constantly on the inside. Ali did not plan on going to war with Frazier, but Frazier forced it on him. As Ali once said, “I bring out the best in everybody, but Joe Frazier brings out the best in me.”

We saw the best of Ali in their climatic first fight.
Frazier, for his part, started “smoking” in the mid rounds when he began to come on as he always did. I counted slip and duck rates for Frazier in this fight. Joe made Ali miss an average of 14-17 punches a round. This is the highest slip and duck rate I have encountered in fighters of this level. Roberto Duran averaged about 12 a round in his peak performance at lightweight against Esteban Dejesus in their rubber match. Frazier was making Ali miss and making him pay. Of their great trilogy it was this first fight where Ali and Frazier were at their best, both undefeated and neither thought that they could lose. The "Thrilla in Manila" may have been more vicious, but only because they were older and couldn't miss each other. In terms of skill level and quality of opposition, no other heavyweight fight in history can match this one.

Perhaps no other opponent would have beaten this Ali. Consider what Ali brought to the ring that night. Fantastic hand speed, accurate jabs and precise combination punching, a hard right cross that never looked better, strength to clinch, maul and brawl on the inside, and in this fight he proved he could take a tremendous punch. Had Ali never went into exile perhaps we may have seen a better Ali between 1968-1970, that we will never know. What we can recognize is that we never actually saw a better Muhammad Ali than the one who fought Frazier on March 8, 1971.

Neither Ali nor Frazier were ever quite the same after that fight. Despite having won the decision the fight seemed to take more out of Frazier who never again achieved the same level of success. Ali, although he would go on to enjoy another long reign as champion, never looked sharper. It is ironic that perhaps the greatest heavyweight champion of all time, on his best night ever, lost.

[Jersey-Jim]

MIKE TYSON

By M. Cox

Mike Tyson is the most controversial heavyweight champion in boxing history. Fans and historians alike vehemently argue over whether Iron Mike deserves to be rated among the all time greats. Some fans insist that the young Tyson was perhaps the most dangerous if not the greatest heavyweight champion in history, while others argue that Tyson has been vastly over-rated citing that he lost all of his legacy fights. Both views have some credence.

How good was Mike Tyson? From 1986-1990 he was one of the most feared heavyweight champions ever. His unique melding of fantastic hand speed and shocking punching power made him a threat to any opponent he faced. Like Joe Louis and Sonny Liston before him Tyson’s baleful stare and stunning power struck terror into the hearts of his opponents.
Because he scored some crushing one-punch knockouts some observers tend to think of Tyson as strictly a limited power puncher. However, in his youthful prime, he was much more than just a devastating hitter. Hank Kaplan, speaking of the young Tyson, wrote in Boxing Digest, “He has the best defense seen in the heavyweight division in many years.” Tyson had excellent fundamentals, he showed good balance, exceptional head movement, kept his hands high, ducked and bent at the waist to remain in punching position and he slipped, blocked and countered punches very well. Tony Tucker and Bonecrusher Smith each managed to land only one significant punch in their entire fights against Tyson.


Iron Mike also was a fine combination puncher in his youth, an important skill that the later versions of Tyson abandoned possibly due to a lack of good work ethics. Famous trainer Angelo Dundee said after his fight with Trevor Berbick, “Tyson throws combinations I never saw before. When have you seen a guy throw a right hand to the kidney, come up the middle with an uppercut, then throw a left hook. He throws punches . . . like a trigger.”

Tyson was also a debilitating body puncher. Watch the film of Tyson work over Jesse Ferguson; his body punching is incredible and just as workmanlike as that of a prime Joe Frazier.

The one legendary fighter that Tyson is most often compared to is Jack Dempsey who was one of his ring idols. Like Dempsey, Tyson was an aggressive bobbing and weaving perpetual motion machine that rushed his opponents from the opening bell. In the December 1988 Ring Magazine, Tyson and Dempsey: Is History Repeating Itself? writer John Reeves wrote about an incident in a bar while viewing the Tyson-Pinklon Thomas fight. Reeves had said to an old pug watching the fight, "A lot like Marciano huh?" "Not really" the old man replied, "I wouldn't say so. He fights more like Dempsey."

There are a lot of similarities between Tyson and Dempsey. Reeves noted, "Like Tyson, Dempsey fought out of a crouch, constantly moving in a bobbing and weaving fashion so taller men would be forced to punch down at a mobile target. Both learned to pressure their way inside and unleash furious volleys of head and body punches. Both ended a lot of fights early with devastating power."

Tyson was a bigger, faster, stronger and more powerful version of Jack Dempsey. Against the other 3 great swarming heavyweights that include Dempsey, Rocky Marciano, and Joe Frazier, Tyson is tops in size, natural strength, defense, hand speed, and raw power. It is difficult to imagine any man weighing less than or around 200 pounds surviving long against a rampaging Tyson. Although lacking the toughness and durability of the other 3, Tyson was naturally bigger and stronger and had so much speed and power he might just walk right threw them.

The one heavyweight of similar size that could match Tyson in hand speed, punching power and boxing skill was Joe Louis. Perhaps Louis, who was the epitome of the complete boxer-puncher, could frustrate Tyson by keeping him on the end of his ramrod jab and neutralizing Mike’s aggressiveness. Louis was a master of dissecting an opponent’s weaknesses such as Tyson’s ducking left before throwing the hook. Louis would counter by setting up his perfect right hand.

Louis counter-punching skill was superior to that of Evander Holyfield who defeated a comebacking Tyson and Louis definately had the power to discourage him. Louis also had greater mental toughness proving he could come from behind to win. It would be no easy fight and there is always a chance (albeit slim) that Tyson could end things early. The pick though is Louis by mid-rounds knockout.

The type of opponent who gives Tyson at his peak the most trouble are the bigger sized sluggers like Sonny Liston and George Foreman, or an exceptional quick handed out-boxer like Muhammad Ali. Foreman, in particular, is a bad match up for Tyson. Foreman was at his best against short, stocky pressure fighters who came to him. Although Tyson had superior, speed and power as compared to Joe Frazier he would still be right in front of George and few men in history would be able to stand up to Foreman in a slugfest and hope to survive.

Writer F. Lotierzo was told by Ronnie Lott that Tyson used to watch the film of Frazier-Foreman (I) with his mentor Cus D'Amato, who had no idea Foreman could one day be a Tyson opponent. Cus used to tell Tyson that no heavyweight who ever lived could beat Foreman by going to him, and swarmers like Dempsey, Marciano, and Frazier couldn't beat him in a million years. Tyson never forgot it and when the opportunity came for them to fight in 1991 Tyson was not interested. Liston matches up similarly to Tyson and Mike once said that the only great heavyweight he ever saw that would intimidate him is “Sonny Liston.” With the mental battle already won there is little doubt as to the outcome of a Tyson-Liston match up.

Tyson’s weaknesses as a fighter were not physical but rather were psychological. If Iron Mike could not intimidate his opponent he tended to fade as the bout progressed. He had a front-runner mentality and became frustrated if he could not gain control of the bout in the early rounds. This was especially obvious in his defeats to Buster Douglas and Evander Holyfield. He would freeze up when his opponent’s fought back aggressively. Tyson had fists of Iron enough to wreck many an opponent but if one could frustrate him he proved to have feet of clay and would begin to fall apart at the seams. Tyson’s lack of mental discipline and focus was his Achilles heel.

The one fighter who would completely dominate Tyson is Muhammad Ali. Ali was the master of psychological warfare. He would get into Tyson’s head and he would frustrate him with his own speed and lateral movement and lightning like strikes from the outside. After a few rounds Tyson would get impatient as Ali punished him with quick combinations. Ali would take Tyson to the later rounds and eventually knock him out in Buster Douglas like fashion. Tyson does fairly well when matched head to head with some of the greatest heavyweights who ever lived. From an accomplishments view point he unified the titles at a time when they were seemingly fractured beyond repair, which is something that Larry Holmes did not do. He was the youngest fighter in history to win a version of the heavyweight title at age 20 and the second youngest lineal champion in history at age 21. He made 9 successful defenses of the title (non-linear), which is more than either Dempsey or Marciano. His 91-second knockout of Michael Spinks rates with Dempsey-Willard, Louis-Schmeling 2, and Foreman-Frazier (1) among the most dominating performances of one heavyweight champion over another.


Tyson lost to Buster Douglas in his physical prime at age 23 and his skills rapidly deteriorated. In some ways Tyson is a lot like the great young champions Terry McGovern and Wilfred Benitez. McGovern won his first world title at age 19 and in a 10 month period knocked out the bantamweight, featherweight and lightweight world champions. He once won 10 fights in a total of 17 rounds. But by age 22 he was finished as a top fighter.

Benitez was similar, at age 17 he was the youngest boxing champion in history in any weight class and a triple-crown champion by age 22, but by age 25 he was shot. Tyson lost 3 of his "prime" years to incarceration in Indianapolis for a convicted rape, a blotch on his record that is unforgivable in the eyes of many. During this time he was not able to work on his boxing skills at all and his deterioration was obvious to veteran Tyson watchers once he began fighting again. In fact he never defeated a real top heavyweight since before that time. His last major win against a live top contender was against Razor Ruddock in 1991.
A man of iron fists with a psyche of clay, Tyson was a great young fighter who could not stay on top of his game mentally. If he had the heart and toughness of Joe Frazier he might rank among the top 3 heavyweights of all time, but the simple fact is he didn't. Tyson took his beatings against Douglas and Holyfield in their first fight, as well as Lennox Lewis, but quit in the 2nd Holyfield fight by fouling, he later failed to beat the count against Danny Williams and quit against Kevin McBride at the end of his career.

The fact that he did not come from behind to beat Douglas, or win against Holyfield or Lewis hurts his standing. Does Tyson deserve to be considered an all time great? Based on his physical attributes, speed, boxing skill and punching power the answer is yes. Like McGovern and Benitez he peaked at a young age and then faded quickly. Unfortunately he will be remembered more for his late career failures, when his skills and desire had long vanished, than for his early success. Mike Tyson was good enough at his youthful peak to be considered among the best heavyweights in history.

[mikehoudini]

Excellent reads, Jim, and the Louis-Liston fight was a classic!

[Jersey-Jim]

Originally Posted by mikehoudini

Excellent reads, Jim, and the Louis-Liston fight was a classic!

Thanks Mike! I felt like I was actually watching Louis and Liston as it unfolded.

[Jersey-Jim]

Originally Posted by Claybor

Very close again, I have it even unless the 2 KD round was a 10-7. hard to tell from this angle. :] Hell of a fight.

This was a great, great fight to watch unfold. Seeing Louis get up from two knockdowns and comeback to win only added to the realism of the fight.

[Mad Bomber]

Jim, that was an instant classic.


Greg

[Jersey-Jim]

Originally Posted by Mad Bomber

Jim, that was an instant classic.


Greg

I can only hope the remaining fights come close as far as action and entertainment go

[Mad Bomber]

Jim, I have also been reading Cox's Corner for years, and it seems the only heavyweight in history that Monte thinks could have beaten Ali in his prime was Louis, so I find that article fascinating.

Greg

[Jersey-Jim]

It's Ali and Tyson later tonight - here at the Atlantic City Convention center.

Earlier, I caught up with Ali for a brief moment and he had this to say about tonight's fight;

Ali: "Tonight, Son of Kong's gonna take a big fall. Tyson ain't no George Foreman. And if Tyson can't hurt you or make you scared, he can't beat you. He doesn't have the stamina or Frazier or the power of Foreman. The man's gonna take a beatin'. The man's already beat! I feel sorry for him and I haven't even hit him yet."

Jersey-Jim: Conventional wisdom sides with Ali for tonight’s fight. Yet, there are a few intangibles that have yet to be pointed out. While Tyson may not possess the single, on punch power of George Foreman, his hand speed and punching volume are noticeably higher. On the right night, a prime Tyson can TKO any Heavyweight in history. His size, speed and power can lead to a forced stoppage even if a fighter like Ali, Louis or Dempsey remain on their feet. Remember, this isn’t best out of 3, 4 or more fights. This is one fight – one night – tonight. Stay tuned!

[Jersey-Jim]

Ali, like Jack Johnson before him, seemed to fight down at times to the level of the competition. Ali could be beat by fighters like Ken Norton, Jimmy Young, Doug Jones and others.

Against Louis he'd be 100% as he was in the 3 Frazier fights. If they found 3 times, he'd lose at least once. The power Frazier hand in the left hand - Louis had in both hands.

Originally Posted by Mad Bomber

Jim, I have also been reading Cox's Corner for years, and it seems the only heavyweight in history that Monte thinks could have beaten Ali in his prime was Louis, so I find that article fascinating.

Greg

[Jersey-Jim]

Muhammad Ali vs. Mike Tyson


Welcome my friends to Atlantic City, New Jersey. We’re here at the convention center tonight for the Quarter Finals match-up between Muhammad Ali and Mike Tyson. There are loads of celebrities here tonight at ringside including, Norman Mailer, Jackie Gleason, Mark Twain and Humphrey Bogart.

Now let’s go down to ringside as the fighters get the last minute instructions from the referee in charge of tonight’s action – Mills Lane.

Lane: “Alright, you both received you instructions in the dressing room. Protect yourself at all times. I want a good, clean fight! Let’s get it on!

Tyson’s pacing back and forth like a caged animal. Ali’s already talking to him from across the ring. I think he’s saying, “Goin down, Kong! Goin down!”

There’s the bell!

[Jersey-Jim]

ROUND 1
Tyson races from his bobbing and weaving – up and down, side to side. Ali’s flicking the jab. The jab’s are missing. Tyson scores with a straight left. Big uppercut from Tyson! Ali’s stunned! He's hurt! Right hand from Tyson. Ali’s legs buckle! He’s hurt! The crowd’s going crazy here in the first! Ali with a three punch combination. That caught Tyson by surprise. Tyson continues bobbing and weaving his way forward. Ali misses with the jab. Two thunderous shots to the body by Tyson! And there’s the bell. Great first round from Mike Tyson!

[Jersey-Jim]

ROUND 2
Tyson crowding Ali, here in the 2nd. Tyson nails Ali with another hard uppercut. He’s having a lot of success with that punch. Ali catches Tyson with a fast combination to the head. Tyson’s legs buckled! That last combination hurt Tyson! Tyson lands another straight left and a hard right. Ali's doubling up with two lefts and a right to the head! Ali slips a Tyson hook and nails him right a quick right-left to the head. Ali with a good right hand. That punch rocked Tyson slightly and there’s the bell! Great round for Muhammad Ali.

[Jersey-Jim]

ROUND 3
Tyson takes a fast jab from Ali. He’s stalking Ali with his gloves tucked tightly beneath his chin. Tyson with a lot of upper body movement. A right hook from Ali lands. Tyson scores with his own right hand to the body. Ali jabbing well. Tyson digs two murderous shots to the body! Ali ties Tyson up and the referee separates them. Tyson going hard to the body again. I have to say, Ali took the thunder to the body from Foreman, and now he’s taking it from Tyson. Those shots are hard enough break a hole in the side of a ship! And there’s the bell ending the 3rd.

[Jersey-Jim]

ROUND 4
Tyson closes the distance quickly. He’s staying right on top of Ali. Tyson with a quick uppercut. Ali with a quick combination to the head. Tyson blocked a few of those punches. Ali with a good right to the head. That punch slowed Tyson a bit. A combination to the body and a big right to the head from Tyson. Ali holds. Both fighters measuring one another. Ali with right to the head. Ali scores with two lefts to the chin and another right to the head. Ali jabbing Tyson again… and they clinch.
There’s the bell.

[Jersey-Jim]

ROUND 5
Ali jabbing with authority now. Tyson eats several hard jabs and bobs and weaves beneath several others. Ali scoring with a sharp right hand. Oh, Tyson’s cut! Tyson’s pawing at the cut. Ali nails Tyson with a combination. Tyson with a hard uppercut! Ali with two quick lefts to the head! Tyson goes to the body and Ali was already moving. Ali with a hard right hook to the chin! Tyson’s stunned! That right hand stunned Tyson! Ali with a big right uppercut and another left to the chin! There’s the bell. Ali’s trash talking to Tyson and Cus D’Amato is in the ring cursing at Ali and leading Tyson back to the corner!

[Jersey-Jim]

ROUND 6
Here we are in the 6th. And Tyson walks right into a huge uppercut from Ali! Tyson staggers! Ali misses with a right. Tyson explodes with two rights to the body and a big left uppercut. A right to the head from Tyson! Ali’s must have taken a thumb or something to the eye. Ali’s eye is suddenly halfway shut! I didn’t see the thumb, but Ali’s eye looks bad! Ali with a right to the head. And there’s a double right uppercut from Tyson that rocked Ali back into the ropes! They tie up and there’s the bell!

[Jersey-Jim]

ROUND 7
Angelo Dundee went to work on Ali’s eye in between rounds. The swelling looks like it came down a bit, but Ali’s going to have to protect that eye. Ali’s on his toes. Ali working the jab effectively and moving. Tyson follows. Tyson’s have problems getting around the jab. Ali with two more jabs followed by a right cross. They clinch, and the bell stops the action.

[Jersey-Jim]

ROUND 8
Here we are in the 8th. Tyson hooking to the body and bobbing and weaving his way inside again. Ali jabbing and scoring with the clean right to the head. Tyson with a right to the body and missing with a left hook upstairs. Ali’s snapping Tyson’s head back with the jab. Tyson with two huge shots to the body! Ali flurries to the head and the bell sounds ending the 8th! Ali's talking to Tyson again and Tyson is starting to look frustrated.