Your opinions please... - Page 7

Simmo13 · 09-30-2006, 05:03 AM

Hellion9, good post apart from that "Watneys Party Seven" picture which sent shivers down my spine!

Kemp · 09-30-2006, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

It's never going to happen, but this game series should be officially split into two products:

Out of the Park Baseball 2007 and Baseball Manager 2007.

This pretty much touches on what I said in my post on page 4 of this thread. While I didn't suggest making two products out of it, I do think there is a large "disconnect" between the way people view/use the game.

Personally I don't manage in game at all. I'm fine with simming games but I'm highly focused on player development, trade AI, drafts, etc. I also play fictional. But I do realize there are those who go the historical route and who like to manage every single game.

To me, the problem stems in trying to satisfy those two HIGHLY disparate groups! I really believe OOTP needs to select a path here and focus on what it "wants to be".

Raderick · 09-30-2006, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

It's never going to happen, but this game series should be officially split into two products:

Out of the Park Baseball 2007 and Baseball Manager 2007.

The first game should be a more traditional baseball simulation with emphasis on the game of baseball itself, a highly accurate game engine, and excellent managerial AI. It should also feature robust historical play, replay accuracy, and features that will keep the game simple and highly enjoyable for the fan that does not want the features of the typical SI game. Some of the features for scouting, media, and purely wild fictional baseball should be removed in order to make room for a more accurate simulation of contemporary major league baseball and its past history.

The second game, Baseball Manager, should basically be a baseball version of Football Manager. The development could focus largely on career play, limitless customization, countless options for fictional play, global features, and all the media interaction, scouting, and other features that have made SI famous.

I truly believe that this is the ultimate solution, although it might require another programmer to take on the development of the traditional OOTP series while also working with Markus to share code and ideas as he focuses on the FM-style game.

I think that SI has no understanding whatsoever of the traditional American sports simulation market, and it only knows the career-based simulation market that emerged in the mid-90's. That's understandable considering that SI operates on a different continent and hasn't come out of the realm of Strat-O-Matic, APBA, Diamond Mind, Cactus Development, DK Sports, and all the rest.

But something has to be done to divide this series into two products with separate agendas, otherwise this game is going to become the baseball version of FM and drive all of the more traditional gamers to products like PureSim and back to games from the companies mentioned above. And I'm pretty sure that I will be one of them, even though I'm a fan of the FM series. I just have no interest in seeing OOTP become the baseball version of FM, because I know that it will come at the expense of the features and playability that I'm looking for.

I can tell you which one will be the better seller, and it the difference would be so outrageous that it wouldn't be funny.

Curtis · 09-30-2006, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raderick

I can tell you which one will be the better seller, and it the difference would be so outrageous that it wouldn't be funny.

Fictional would swamp historical, if for no other reason than historical would be competing against Strat-o-Matic, Diamond Mind and half a dozen others, while fictional apparently has no competition.

Bobble · 09-30-2006, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

It's never going to happen, but this game series should be officially split into two products:

Out of the Park Baseball 2007 and Baseball Manager 2007.

The first game should be a more traditional baseball simulation with emphasis on the game of baseball itself, a highly accurate game engine, and excellent managerial AI. It should also feature robust historical play, replay accuracy, and features that will keep the game simple and highly enjoyable for the fan that does not want the features of the typical SI game. Some of the features for scouting, media, and purely wild fictional baseball should be removed in order to make room for a more accurate simulation of contemporary major league baseball and its past history.

The second game, Baseball Manager, should basically be a baseball version of Football Manager. The development could focus largely on career play, limitless customization, countless options for fictional play, global features, and all the media interaction, scouting, and other features that have made SI famous.

I truly believe that this is the ultimate solution, although it might require another programmer to take on the development of the traditional OOTP series while also working with Markus to share code and ideas as he focuses on the FM-style game.

I think that SI has no understanding whatsoever of the traditional American sports simulation market, and it only knows the career-based simulation market that emerged in the mid-90's. That's understandable considering that SI operates on a different continent and hasn't come out of the realm of Strat-O-Matic, APBA, Diamond Mind, Cactus Development, DK Sports, and all the rest.

But something has to be done to divide this series into two products with separate agendas, otherwise this game is going to become the baseball version of FM and drive all of the more traditional gamers to products like PureSim and back to games from the companies mentioned above. And I'm pretty sure that I will be one of them, even though I'm a fan of the FM series. I just have no interest in seeing OOTP become the baseball version of FM, because I know that it will come at the expense of the features and playability that I'm looking for.

And the first post on the forums would be, "Why can't they put Baseball Manager and OOTP together!!?!?!??? It's the SAME company for fork's sake!" I'm paraphrasing. I'm not sure they will use the term "fork's".

Zitofan75 · 09-30-2006, 11:36 AM

Interesting read.

I suppose the overall polarized reaction to the game was predictable. It's a new version. New versions tend to have a cloud over them because A) fans of the game are used to the old version and some of them will resist the change and B) a new version hasn't had the time to become as refined as the old version. I know Markus had two years to work on this but how many years did he spend making 6.51? Remember that evolved from 6.12, which evolved from 6, which evolved from 5, which evolved from 4 ... you get the idea. 6.51 was so great becuase it evolved, it wasn't thought out from scratch. If it had been then people wouldn't have been so happy with it.

Still, Markus was ready to move on. It was risky but he said he needed to and he did it. It's clear a decent percentage were ready to go with him. It's also clear a decent percentage weren't prepared to make the journey. I don't think those polarized results are indicative as to whether Markus made the correct decision or the incorrect decision. The idea that we were all going to joyfully embrace the new version was naive. Even if the initial release was the equivalent of the last patched game there would have been opposition.

Well, I think OOTPBB2006 is going to evolve. It's going to grow through future versions and likely get as tight and refined as 6.51. When will that be? Beats me. Maybe not 6 versions since presumably Markus has learned more programming skills than he knew before. We'll see. I'm willing to stick around and watch. We all liked what early OOTP evolved into right? I have faith Markus can pull the same thing off again.

That hope will likely satisfy people in "B" above. It may not satisfy people in "A" but then to a degree that's inevitable. Going to a new version is always going to be too big of a jolt for some. Markus, like any designer, has to gauge whether serious changes are worth losing some customers. What do the changes bring? Better code, better flexibility, better access to the market (and therefore more customers than ever before)? I'm sure he doesn't want to lose any old time customers mind you but a realist will see that he will. Maybe a version or two from now we can reflect and decide if, in the balance, he made the right decision. But I think it's too early to do that now.

Zitofan75 · 09-30-2006, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobble

And the first post on the forums would be, "Why can't they put Baseball Manager and OOTP together!!?!?!??? It's the SAME company for fork's sake!" I'm paraphrasing. I'm not sure they will use the term "fork's".

That's the curse of trying to please everyone. That's why DMB is great, they don't even bother trying. To do one thing and they do it very, very well. Markus is trying to please multiple groups and the purists on both sides get upset over it.

fhomess · 09-30-2006, 02:32 PM

Ok, so I finally was able to read the actual "review" that Marc asked about. I have to first say that to consider that a review is a bit of a joke. It's a blog entry and a rant. It's not even consistent. In the first paragraph he calls it a fine product and then in the next says to stay away. He rips the game and then says it's still interesting enough to play regularly. I haven't read his other stuff, but my review of his review:

Stay away. Don't bother reading it. It's not informative. He tells you what he thinks but doesn't provide details.

If you really want to know what's good/bad about the game, read this thread.

option.j · 09-30-2006, 02:45 PM

I've enjoyed playing baseball sims, way back from when DMB was PTP. I very much enjoyed playing OOTP v6.12 and even more 6.51. However, 2006 has been an unmitigated disaster.

Basic Game Interface

I think that the idea behind the interface was a good one. However, it was implemented in a very poor fashion. It was extremely unintuitive and not user friendly. Things don't work as you'd expect. It was clear that the game was trying to tap in to an existing context that most people who have used computers would understand. However, this feeling was broken almost immediately. If you aren't going to give users the benefit of convention, then you are better off with a completely different interface. I know that programmers are not often the best UI designers. I think much more attention should be paid to this next time.

Bugs

Yeah, they are going to happen. However, there were so many, and on such simple things, that it was clear that the game was slapped together. This is quite frustrating.

Complexity

Echoing what others have said, there was too much complexity in things that should be abstracted, at least to my mind. These things should be better made optional, such that the game can be played by the casual user.

Conversion

Quite honestly, I think it is ridiculous that conversions from v6.51 are not seamless. This isn't a case where we're talking about some weird format change. We're talking data. I can't think of a single reason why this doesn't work well, other than that it wasn't thought of as essential. Given that your installed base for v6 is your main pool to buy 2006, I will say that I humbly disagree with this decision.

Summary

I think that is most of what I have to say for specifics. My experience with 2006 has left a really bad taste in my mouth. This was further exacerbated by the various emanations from SI, to be brutally frank. I'm quite irritated by the responses of 'design decision' and the like for things that just don't work. I slapped my money down for 2006 to get it on the release day, with mucho excitement. This will not be the case with 2007. Once bitten, twice shy. This version harmed my trust in the company, and the subsequent actions hurt it further.

option.j · 09-30-2006, 03:06 PM

And also, I'm curious about the new nomenclature. This was version 2006. Next will come version 2007.

Seems pretty clear that this is meant to be similarly to the way that EA names their games, not the way that Microsoft labels their products.

However, at the minimum with EA games, you get updated rosters, even if the gameplay was largely untouched. Some people gladly pay for this change. Given that roster sets are freely available, and in fact are not included with OOTP, the updates need to be pretty strong in order to justify buying a new version each year. Additionally, many will want to continue playing with their previous leagues in a new version, so that update path between versions better be rock solid.

disposableheros · 09-30-2006, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by option.j

And also, I'm curious about the new nomenclature. This was version 2006. Next will come version 2007.

Seems pretty clear that this is meant to be similarly to the way that EA names their games, not the way that Microsoft labels their products.

However, at the minimum with EA games, you get updated rosters, even if the gameplay was largely untouched. Some people gladly pay for this change. Given that roster sets are freely available, and in fact are not included with OOTP, the updates need to be pretty strong in order to justify buying a new version each year. Additionally, many will want to continue playing with their previous leagues in a new version, so that update path between versions better be rock solid.

oh, you mean like, Office '95, Office '97, Office 2000, Office 2002, Office 2003, Office 2007?

option.j · 09-30-2006, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by disposableheros

oh, you mean like, Office '95, Office '97, Office 2000, Office 2002, Office 2003, Office 2007?

Presactly. Usually at least a couple years between releases. In the case of 02->03, it was also a fairly major upgrade.

Cork55 · 09-30-2006, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by option.j

And also, I'm curious about the new nomenclature. This was version 2006. Next will come version 2007.

Seems pretty clear that this is meant to be similarly to the way that EA names their games, not the way that Microsoft labels their products.

However, at the minimum with EA games, you get updated rosters, even if the gameplay was largely untouched. Some people gladly pay for this change. Given that roster sets are freely available, and in fact are not included with OOTP, the updates need to be pretty strong in order to justify buying a new version each year. Additionally, many will want to continue playing with their previous leagues in a new version, so that update path between versions better be rock solid.

It will be interesting to see how much they can manage to add each year to justify a purchase. OOTP2007 should be worthy of purchasing, but after that what more could they add to warrant a full purchase?

-Cork55

ballman · 09-30-2006, 05:59 PM

1. After version 1.3, I have come to like the game very much.

2. There are still some things I would like to see. The AI is still not up to par with any decent human manager. The difference, I believe, is that human managers have the ability to draft from the world whereas the AI never will. Yes, the preponderance of good players has declined, but if you're the only one signing them, then you have a distinct advantage. It's like doubling your draft picks every year. So, my first concern is the AI. I'd like to see it get a bit better.

3. That said, all that is possible with a large market team. I can see definite challenges when I start managing market sizes 1-4. BTW: I play commish mode because thirty bucks AND you get fired is no fun.

4. I love the options because that makes the game so adaptable to whatever style I play. I start with one league, 8 teams and expand every ten years. I start with a VERY deadball league and gradually increase the ratings as the years pass. That makes older team records harder to break. I leave my rookie league with default settings so that I don't forget what they were. I eliminate the short season A league as unnecessary.

5. BTW Reprise: I was curious what a pitcher with ratings of 100-100-100 would do, so I created a player with my name and he got so good, so fast that I broke his arm and retired him.

6. I much prefer 2006 to 6.5 or ANY of the previous incarnations because those versions were so easy to beat. This one presents some challenges. I predict that if I create a size 1 team that it will not be quite so easy. I was able to dominate every league I ever created no matter how small my market was in those previous versions. Trust me, I DO NOT miss those blue stars. That made the game way too easy to control.

Good work to everyone responbsible for this game. I really enjoy it have no rocks to throw other than the mediocre AI.

Thanks again

Theonlystd · 09-30-2006, 10:20 PM

I havnt touched Ootp 2006 since like the second week it came out.

There where alot of things. I liked simming a league 50,100 years before it took a team over. And it was basiclly impossable for me to do cause of varius things..

One time Everyone started losing there names, another the majority of poeple from s.america countries had the same first name.. Forgot to manually change the finiciails for each other league i had a couple times.. So winter leagues wouldnt be taking players from the MLB. Or id have to go manually ad Players to a Team cause the Ai couldnt keep there minor league teams properly stocked and that'd stop the sim.

After awhile of trying i just gave up..

One of these days ill download the newist patchs and see if its any better.

MadMax58 · 10-01-2006, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobble

And the first post on the forums would be, "Why can't they put Baseball Manager and OOTP together!!?!?!??? It's the SAME company for fork's sake!" I'm paraphrasing. I'm not sure they will use the term "fork's".

I for one, would be one of those forkers upset.

I don't want to oversimplify anybody's concerns...but if I want to replay one historical season, I'd go buy DMB or like product. If I want to manage historical teams & players over multiple seasons, with player progression, financials, GM capabilities, etc, & thus introduce variables that did not exist IRL, then OOTP would be the game I'd choose.

That does not mean OOTP should not continue improving the historical replay ability, thus proving it can portray the introduced variables properly, but I think splitting the product into 2 games is a big fat dealbreaker for many who enjoy both historical & fictional aspects of the game.

I dont like the scouting, I dont like the world league concepts, but it certainly does not force me to use it...and I believe it when Markus & co. say it did not occupy a significant amount of time to implement. Now sure...I'll buy that if it only took 5 minutes to implement & code, then thats 5 minutes better spent on perfecting something else. But that's probably something SI & Markus realize now, and might take back if they could.

Well...they can't, so all of those who are unhappy with some aspects, just keep letting them know about it, as I'm sure most fict & hist players agree with most suggestions. But to simply cut a game in half, which has many aspects & combinations many people like integrating, simply shouldnt be necessary.

Zitofan75 · 10-01-2006, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadMax58

I don't want to oversimplify anybody's concerns...but if I want to replay one historical season, I'd go buy DMB or like product. If I want to manage historical teams & players over multiple seasons, with player progression, financials, GM capabilities, etc, & thus introduce variables that did not exist IRL, then OOTP would be the game I'd choose.

Let's not forget cost. Diamond Mind is considerably more expensive than OOTP and the reason for that is it's specialization and attention to detail. OOTP is a reasonably priced baseball simulation that is designed for a broader and therefore more generalized segment of the market. DMB caters to a much narrower and selective niche of the overall baseball sim market and is correspondingly more expensive to own. Now it does things in terms of history that OOTP can't and likely never will but then again they are different products for different slices of the market.

Sweed · 10-01-2006, 06:13 PM

I am a solo only player that started with v4 and real players and has let the league over time become more and more fictional by attrition. So my comments
are made with no knowledge of online playing.

First thing that sticks out is the "reviewer" will go through the pain of playing the game because there is something there underneath but doesn't seem to think anyone else should have to do this. So nice of him to throw himself on the sword for everyone else

With reagard to oopt, the merger, and this years "new" version. It was indeed released too soon, thought I don't believe waiting was a realistic option either.
No matter what was done people were going to complain (not ready or let us have it now and we can help fix what's wrong).

My feeling in solo play is the game, after patching, gave me a much deeper and better game of baseball than any previous version. I only use a MLB and minor league setup, no world leagues. I still don't see why people complain about the world leagues or what they have to do with soccer.

First the leagues are no different than using the options provided and setting up a fictional world. The only differences between any leagues in the game are the variables you use to set them up. In other words setting up a Korean
league does no more harm then going in and setting up a fictional 16 team league or mirroring MLB baseball in the '50's or 60's.

IMHO the merger is succesful and produced a good game with a solid foundation in place for future versions. As has been said many times the rewrite of oopt is so similar to the rewrite of FM. I believe, like FM, that OOTP will benefit very quickly from this turbulent year and be the unquestioned leader in the baseball sim world. I would hope this will be with
v2007 and am optomistic that it will turn out this way. Marcus spent a massive amount of time getting the base in place. Now that it is done that time can be put to better use.

rewc27 · 10-01-2006, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

Unfortunately, I think the blogger is right.

I'd say that the biggest overall problem with the merger is that Markus tried to make OOTP more like Football Manager with this release. And I think that is a mistake.

Great point. I don't think OOTP and SI merger was a bad thing. I think the game got too ambitious.

I also have to agree with 'fun factor' and 'feel' of the game points. I play both solo leagues and have been an online commish for about 3 years.

I like to play out my solo leagues. I get about 3 innings in to playing my games and get bored and sim to the end. It's overkill, it's hard to look at, and it takes too long. The well documented bugs and most of my owners saying that if we convert to 2006, they would quit prevent me from switching my online leauge.

To me 6.5 was near perfect. If it had the stat tracking and 'Cato' style history built in, it would be perfect. Yes I know there were some issues with the AI, but it was things you could look past.

I am still hopeful about the future of the game. I have been around OOTP since version 3 and know given time, Markus will get it right. That said, I don't know I will be pre-ordering 2007 like I did the last several versions of the game. I don't think Markus or SI owe me anything. Caviat Emptor (spelling?) let the buyer beware. No one held a gun to my head and made me pre-oder the game before I played a demo.

Am I dissapointed with this version of the game? Yes
Do I play it anymore. No, although I may pull it out from time to time to retry it.
Will I buy 2007? Probably, but after I play the demo to see that it is something I can enjoy.

Eugene Church · 10-02-2006, 01:56 PM

IMO Chris' review of V2006 is fairly accurate. I pretty much had the same feeling in the early days of release. I am trying real hard to like the game, but so far, it is just too complex and overdone for me to enjoy it. But I am still trying to set up my ultimate universe.

Although I think he went too far in saying not to buy it. A better recommendation would have been to try the demo and see for yourself.

As far as the SI merger, I thought it was a good thing, since Markus would now have access to all of their coding and testing experience. I really felt that with the additional manpower and game development expertise, V2006 would really be a fine product. But when the game was released, there were many glaring mistakes and oversights. The game was rushed for release and was not properly tested. I would have been embarrassed to release the game in its condition.

It is almost like it was produced with volunteer help.

Where were the SI professionals that produced, designed and tested the wonderful FM soccer game?

I mistakenly thought V2006 would be like the 6.5 version, but with expanded play results, news stories, almanac, PBP text and complete minor leagues. I expected the game would be relatively free of major bugs and design problems because of SI's vast knowledge and expertise in game development.

For V2007, just give me expanded play results, news stories and PBP text. Make the game fun and easy to play again like the 6.5 version.

Please improve the in-game graphics and unclutter the screens with useless information, just for the sake of information.

And please don't rush the release. Get it basically right before releasing it.

You could also give some tech support to V2006. It looks like it has been forgotten.

09-30-2006, 02:32 PM	#128
fhomess Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 3,693	Ok, so I finally was able to read the actual "review" that Marc asked about. I have to first say that to consider that a review is a bit of a joke. It's a blog entry and a rant. It's not even consistent. In the first paragraph he calls it a fine product and then in the next says to stay away. He rips the game and then says it's still interesting enough to play regularly. I haven't read his other stuff, but my review of his review: Stay away. Don't bother reading it. It's not informative. He tells you what he thinks but doesn't provide details. If you really want to know what's good/bad about the game, read this thread. __________________ StatsLab- PHP/MySQL based utilities for Online Leagues Baseball Cards - Full list of known templates and documentation on card development.

09-30-2006, 05:59 PM	#134
ballman Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: riverside, ca Posts: 145	My review 1. After version 1.3, I have come to like the game very much. 2. There are still some things I would like to see. The AI is still not up to par with any decent human manager. The difference, I believe, is that human managers have the ability to draft from the world whereas the AI never will. Yes, the preponderance of good players has declined, but if you're the only one signing them, then you have a distinct advantage. It's like doubling your draft picks every year. So, my first concern is the AI. I'd like to see it get a bit better. 3. That said, all that is possible with a large market team. I can see definite challenges when I start managing market sizes 1-4. BTW: I play commish mode because thirty bucks AND you get fired is no fun. 4. I love the options because that makes the game so adaptable to whatever style I play. I start with one league, 8 teams and expand every ten years. I start with a VERY deadball league and gradually increase the ratings as the years pass. That makes older team records harder to break. I leave my rookie league with default settings so that I don't forget what they were. I eliminate the short season A league as unnecessary. 5. BTW Reprise: I was curious what a pitcher with ratings of 100-100-100 would do, so I created a player with my name and he got so good, so fast that I broke his arm and retired him. 6. I much prefer 2006 to 6.5 or ANY of the previous incarnations because those versions were so easy to beat. This one presents some challenges. I predict that if I create a size 1 team that it will not be quite so easy. I was able to dominate every league I ever created no matter how small my market was in those previous versions. Trust me, I DO NOT miss those blue stars. That made the game way too easy to control. Good work to everyone responbsible for this game. I really enjoy it have no rocks to throw other than the mediocre AI. Thanks again

09-30-2006, 05:03 AM	#121
Simmo13 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: those blue remembered hills Posts: 955	Hellion9, good post apart from that "Watneys Party Seven" picture which sent shivers down my spine!

09-30-2006, 11:36 AM	#126
Zitofan75 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: California Posts: 1,413	Interesting read. I suppose the overall polarized reaction to the game was predictable. It's a new version. New versions tend to have a cloud over them because A) fans of the game are used to the old version and some of them will resist the change and B) a new version hasn't had the time to become as refined as the old version. I know Markus had two years to work on this but how many years did he spend making 6.51? Remember that evolved from 6.12, which evolved from 6, which evolved from 5, which evolved from 4 ... you get the idea. 6.51 was so great becuase it evolved, it wasn't thought out from scratch. If it had been then people wouldn't have been so happy with it. Still, Markus was ready to move on. It was risky but he said he needed to and he did it. It's clear a decent percentage were ready to go with him. It's also clear a decent percentage weren't prepared to make the journey. I don't think those polarized results are indicative as to whether Markus made the correct decision or the incorrect decision. The idea that we were all going to joyfully embrace the new version was naive. Even if the initial release was the equivalent of the last patched game there would have been opposition. Well, I think OOTPBB2006 is going to evolve. It's going to grow through future versions and likely get as tight and refined as 6.51. When will that be? Beats me. Maybe not 6 versions since presumably Markus has learned more programming skills than he knew before. We'll see. I'm willing to stick around and watch. We all liked what early OOTP evolved into right? I have faith Markus can pull the same thing off again. That hope will likely satisfy people in "B" above. It may not satisfy people in "A" but then to a degree that's inevitable. Going to a new version is always going to be too big of a jolt for some. Markus, like any designer, has to gauge whether serious changes are worth losing some customers. What do the changes bring? Better code, better flexibility, better access to the market (and therefore more customers than ever before)? I'm sure he doesn't want to lose any old time customers mind you but a realist will see that he will. Maybe a version or two from now we can reflect and decide if, in the balance, he made the right decision. But I think it's too early to do that now.

09-30-2006, 02:45 PM	#129
option.j Bat Boy Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 6	I've enjoyed playing baseball sims, way back from when DMB was PTP. I very much enjoyed playing OOTP v6.12 and even more 6.51. However, 2006 has been an unmitigated disaster. Basic Game Interface I think that the idea behind the interface was a good one. However, it was implemented in a very poor fashion. It was extremely unintuitive and not user friendly. Things don't work as you'd expect. It was clear that the game was trying to tap in to an existing context that most people who have used computers would understand. However, this feeling was broken almost immediately. If you aren't going to give users the benefit of convention, then you are better off with a completely different interface. I know that programmers are not often the best UI designers. I think much more attention should be paid to this next time. Bugs Yeah, they are going to happen. However, there were so many, and on such simple things, that it was clear that the game was slapped together. This is quite frustrating. Complexity Echoing what others have said, there was too much complexity in things that should be abstracted, at least to my mind. These things should be better made optional, such that the game can be played by the casual user. Conversion Quite honestly, I think it is ridiculous that conversions from v6.51 are not seamless. This isn't a case where we're talking about some weird format change. We're talking data. I can't think of a single reason why this doesn't work well, other than that it wasn't thought of as essential. Given that your installed base for v6 is your main pool to buy 2006, I will say that I humbly disagree with this decision. Summary I think that is most of what I have to say for specifics. My experience with 2006 has left a really bad taste in my mouth. This was further exacerbated by the various emanations from SI, to be brutally frank. I'm quite irritated by the responses of 'design decision' and the like for things that just don't work. I slapped my money down for 2006 to get it on the release day, with mucho excitement. This will not be the case with 2007. Once bitten, twice shy. This version harmed my trust in the company, and the subsequent actions hurt it further.

09-30-2006, 03:06 PM	#130
option.j Bat Boy Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 6	And also, I'm curious about the new nomenclature. This was version 2006. Next will come version 2007. Seems pretty clear that this is meant to be similarly to the way that EA names their games, not the way that Microsoft labels their products. However, at the minimum with EA games, you get updated rosters, even if the gameplay was largely untouched. Some people gladly pay for this change. Given that roster sets are freely available, and in fact are not included with OOTP, the updates need to be pretty strong in order to justify buying a new version each year. Additionally, many will want to continue playing with their previous leagues in a new version, so that update path between versions better be rock solid.

09-30-2006, 10:20 PM	#135
Theonlystd Minors (Double A) Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 159	I havnt touched Ootp 2006 since like the second week it came out. There where alot of things. I liked simming a league 50,100 years before it took a team over. And it was basiclly impossable for me to do cause of varius things.. One time Everyone started losing there names, another the majority of poeple from s.america countries had the same first name.. Forgot to manually change the finiciails for each other league i had a couple times.. So winter leagues wouldnt be taking players from the MLB. Or id have to go manually ad Players to a Team cause the Ai couldnt keep there minor league teams properly stocked and that'd stop the sim. After awhile of trying i just gave up.. One of these days ill download the newist patchs and see if its any better.

10-01-2006, 06:13 PM	#138
Sweed Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 7,018	I am a solo only player that started with v4 and real players and has let the league over time become more and more fictional by attrition. So my comments are made with no knowledge of online playing. First thing that sticks out is the "reviewer" will go through the pain of playing the game because there is something there underneath but doesn't seem to think anyone else should have to do this. So nice of him to throw himself on the sword for everyone else With reagard to oopt, the merger, and this years "new" version. It was indeed released too soon, thought I don't believe waiting was a realistic option either. No matter what was done people were going to complain (not ready or let us have it now and we can help fix what's wrong). My feeling in solo play is the game, after patching, gave me a much deeper and better game of baseball than any previous version. I only use a MLB and minor league setup, no world leagues. I still don't see why people complain about the world leagues or what they have to do with soccer. First the leagues are no different than using the options provided and setting up a fictional world. The only differences between any leagues in the game are the variables you use to set them up. In other words setting up a Korean league does no more harm then going in and setting up a fictional 16 team league or mirroring MLB baseball in the '50's or 60's. IMHO the merger is succesful and produced a good game with a solid foundation in place for future versions. As has been said many times the rewrite of oopt is so similar to the rewrite of FM. I believe, like FM, that OOTP will benefit very quickly from this turbulent year and be the unquestioned leader in the baseball sim world. I would hope this will be with v2007 and am optomistic that it will turn out this way. Marcus spent a massive amount of time getting the base in place. Now that it is done that time can be put to better use.

10-02-2006, 01:56 PM	#140
Eugene Church Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 36,205	IMO Chris' review of V2006 is fairly accurate. I pretty much had the same feeling in the early days of release. I am trying real hard to like the game, but so far, it is just too complex and overdone for me to enjoy it. But I am still trying to set up my ultimate universe. Although I think he went too far in saying not to buy it. A better recommendation would have been to try the demo and see for yourself. As far as the SI merger, I thought it was a good thing, since Markus would now have access to all of their coding and testing experience. I really felt that with the additional manpower and game development expertise, V2006 would really be a fine product. But when the game was released, there were many glaring mistakes and oversights. The game was rushed for release and was not properly tested. I would have been embarrassed to release the game in its condition. It is almost like it was produced with volunteer help. Where were the SI professionals that produced, designed and tested the wonderful FM soccer game? I mistakenly thought V2006 would be like the 6.5 version, but with expanded play results, news stories, almanac, PBP text and complete minor leagues. I expected the game would be relatively free of major bugs and design problems because of SI's vast knowledge and expertise in game development. For V2007, just give me expanded play results, news stories and PBP text. Make the game fun and easy to play again like the 6.5 version. Please improve the in-game graphics and unclutter the screens with useless information, just for the sake of information. And please don't rush the release. Get it basically right before releasing it. You could also give some tech support to V2006. It looks like it has been forgotten.