Bonds vs. Ruth rehashed - Page 6

sixfour210 · 01-29-2004, 11:57 PM

The only reason I bring up race is that people grossly underestimate the level of talent in the negro leagues. Do you think blacks all of the sudden developed talent in baseball as soon as they integrated? Was it 10-20 years before blacks caught on? No. I think it was always there. The talent for hitters anyway was immense in the negro leagues but they got little publicity and did not keep acurate records of performances.

Seeing as how blacks were often leaders in their leagues in many offensive categories shortly after integration, we either have 2 scenarios:

A) Black and latin players, in the span of 5 years, took to the game of baseball and became instant stars at it.

or

B) Black and latin players were always good and were never given the opportunity to showcase their talent.

Take your pick.

JML · 01-30-2004, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sixfour210
The only reason I bring up race is that people grossly underestimate the level of talent in the negro leagues.

So why didn't you say that in the first place!?!?!? A multi-page trainwreck of a thread could have been avoided.

holyroller · 01-30-2004, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sixfour210
B) Black and latin players were always good and were never given the opportunity to showcase their talent.

Who in the **** is disagreeing with this? Are you arguing with us or with a ****ing figment of your imagination? R-E-A-D!

sixfour210 · 01-30-2004, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by holyroller
Who in the **** is disagreeing with this? Are you arguing with us or with a ****ing figment of your imagination? R-E-A-D!

Quote:

Originally posted by Carlton As for the Negro Leagues, they are highly overrated of "what if". Yea, what if Josh Gibson got schooled by pitchers comparable to Satchel Paige every day? No one likes to hear that, but it could have happened. There were Great players on the Negro Leagues, but alot more bad ones...just like MLB...would 10 black players really effect or be as good as Babe Ruth? Doubt it...because it STILL hasn't happened.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cooleyvol Don't get me wrong, you're talking to someone who thinks that Negro players were the equivalent of their MLB counterparts as far as the star players are concerned. There just werent the quantity of SOLID players that you speak of.

You're just coming off and trying to say that the bigs would have been so much tougher to hit in had the negro players been allowed and it just simply, IMO, is not true.

holyroller · 01-30-2004, 12:37 AM

Neither one of the posts says what you seem to think it is saying.

JML · 01-30-2004, 12:44 AM

As much as it pains me to say this....

HR is right.

Crapshoot · 01-30-2004, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cooleyvol
You know what, Aadik..........I can speak for myself and I never worded it the way you paraphrased me.

Here's my point the best way I know to put it:

Add the top 20 black pitchers to the MLB and I don't think Ruth's numbers would be affected noticably.

Cooley, let me point out again- put the top 20 blacks and Ruth's relative dominance, whether using OPS+ and ERA+, goes down- because these are undoubtedly above average players...

sixfour210 · 01-30-2004, 12:48 AM

You all keep saying stuff about how athletes today play other sports that could have played baseball. That's also speculation. You don't know how many players could have an impact on baseball that are currently playing basketball, football or even hockey. And I don't know exactly how many people did not play baseball in Ruth's time because the game wasn't as popular. Sports weren't as popular. Like I said, sports weren't a way of life in terms of playin g professionally. Players had to work in the offseason just to support their families. That's a fact. I would imagine many people would be turned away from baseball because they needed other means of making more money and couldn't live off of their salaries, ESPECIALLY during the Great Deperession.

So, basically, we don't know how many potential baseball players pursued other careers back then and we don't know how many have today either. And you can even forget about population growth and all of that.

So, again, let's go with what we do know. People of color were not allowed to play. These are the same people of color who later on, were stars of the league. I think my assumption that, if these same stars were allowed to play during Ruth's time, Babe Ruth could have possibly been in someone elses shadow. IMO, it's more likely that Ruth was not a freak of nature but that he just played with players that were not at his level. I think, just like in every other era of baseball, for every great black player, there was an equally good white player and vice versa. I believe there was at least one player in the negro leagues that was at Babe Ruth's level.

sixfour210 · 01-30-2004, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by holyroller
Neither one of the posts says what you seem to think it is saying.

Quote:

would 10 black players really effect or be as good as Babe Ruth? Doubt it

How is that not saying that underestimating negro league players?

holyroller · 01-30-2004, 12:52 AM

You know what sixfour, you are welcome to that opinion and it is obvious you aren't going to consider anything else. Just don't expect us to be convinced.

sixfour210 · 01-30-2004, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cooleyvol
You know what, Aadik..........I can speak for myself and I never worded it the way you paraphrased me.

Here's my point the best way I know to put it:

Add the top 20 black pitchers to the MLB and I don't think Ruth's numbers would be affected noticably.

This is also underestimating negro league players.

Like I said before, if blacks weren't as good as whites at baseball in Ruth's era, when do you propose they started getting good?

holyroller · 01-30-2004, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sixfour210
How is that not saying that underestimating negro league players?

I think it is entirely probable that there wasn't even one negro league player that was as good as Ruth, let alone ten.

Besides that, neither one of the posts you quoted said that blacks and latins couldn't play baseball or even play baseball well. They just doubted that it was filled with superstars as you seem to contend.

holyroller · 01-30-2004, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sixfour210
If blacks weren't as good as whites at baseball in Ruth's era, when do you propose they started getting good?

WTF!!!!11

No one is ****ing saying that, jesus christ!!!!11

matskralc · 01-30-2004, 12:56 AM

JML · 01-30-2004, 12:57 AM

This is becoming painful.

matskralc · 01-30-2004, 12:57 AM

^^ Best.Sig.Ever.

THANKS FOR RUINING IT JML!!!1

JML · 01-30-2004, 01:00 AM

Why thank you, mats.

btw, you're welcome.

Kezzek · 01-30-2004, 01:00 AM

64210....remember the number!!!

Rockze is still amazing.

sixfour210 · 01-30-2004, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by holyroller
I think it is entirely probable that there wasn't even one negro league player that was as good as Ruth, let alone ten.

Besides that, neither one of the posts you quoted said that blacks and latins couldn't play baseball or even play baseball well. They just doubted that it was filled with superstars as you seem to contend.

How could you deduce that not one black OR latin player was as good as Babe Ruth seeing as how there are numbers of black and latin players as good, if not better, than the best white player today? Even after players like Frank and Jackie Robinson, Aaron and Mays put up MVP calibre seasons rshortly after integration?

What has changed between races that black and latin players weren't as good back then? Why is it becasue Babe Ruth was so good that people automatically assume that it's not likely that a black or latin player could ever match his greatness?

sixfour210 · 01-30-2004, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by holyroller
WTF!!!!11

No one is ****ing saying that, jesus christ!!!!11

Quote:

I think it is entirely probable that there wasn't even one negro league player that was as good as Ruth, let alone ten.

I believe YOU just did.

01-29-2004, 11:57 PM	#101
sixfour210 All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,227	The only reason I bring up race is that people grossly underestimate the level of talent in the negro leagues. Do you think blacks all of the sudden developed talent in baseball as soon as they integrated? Was it 10-20 years before blacks caught on? No. I think it was always there. The talent for hitters anyway was immense in the negro leagues but they got little publicity and did not keep acurate records of performances. Seeing as how blacks were often leaders in their leagues in many offensive categories shortly after integration, we either have 2 scenarios: A) Black and latin players, in the span of 5 years, took to the game of baseball and became instant stars at it. or B) Black and latin players were always good and were never given the opportunity to showcase their talent. Take your pick. __________________

01-30-2004, 12:37 AM	#105
holyroller Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: OTBL Forums Posts: 3,532	Neither one of the posts says what you seem to think it is saying. __________________ Back to work, but not drawing a paycheck. TonyJ et. al.'s alias “I confused it with the chicken’s neck,” Mocanu, who was admitted to the emergency hospital in Galati, was quoted as saying. “I cut it ... and the dog rushed and ate it.”

01-30-2004, 12:48 AM	#108
sixfour210 All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,227	You all keep saying stuff about how athletes today play other sports that could have played baseball. That's also speculation. You don't know how many players could have an impact on baseball that are currently playing basketball, football or even hockey. And I don't know exactly how many people did not play baseball in Ruth's time because the game wasn't as popular. Sports weren't as popular. Like I said, sports weren't a way of life in terms of playin g professionally. Players had to work in the offseason just to support their families. That's a fact. I would imagine many people would be turned away from baseball because they needed other means of making more money and couldn't live off of their salaries, ESPECIALLY during the Great Deperession. So, basically, we don't know how many potential baseball players pursued other careers back then and we don't know how many have today either. And you can even forget about population growth and all of that. So, again, let's go with what we do know. People of color were not allowed to play. These are the same people of color who later on, were stars of the league. I think my assumption that, if these same stars were allowed to play during Ruth's time, Babe Ruth could have possibly been in someone elses shadow. IMO, it's more likely that Ruth was not a freak of nature but that he just played with players that were not at his level. I think, just like in every other era of baseball, for every great black player, there was an equally good white player and vice versa. I believe there was at least one player in the negro leagues that was at Babe Ruth's level. __________________

01-30-2004, 12:52 AM	#110
holyroller Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: OTBL Forums Posts: 3,532	You know what sixfour, you are welcome to that opinion and it is obvious you aren't going to consider anything else. Just don't expect us to be convinced. __________________ Back to work, but not drawing a paycheck. TonyJ et. al.'s alias “I confused it with the chicken’s neck,” Mocanu, who was admitted to the emergency hospital in Galati, was quoted as saying. “I cut it ... and the dog rushed and ate it.”

01-30-2004, 12:56 AM	#114
matskralc Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,076	__________________ Well, they have a saying here in Texas ... but they probably don't have it in California, so never mind. OTBL - Pennsylvania Fightin' Amish ABC - Pittsburgh Puma OCHO - Pittsburgh Pirates EBU - Commissioner

01-30-2004, 12:44 AM	#106
JML Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The act or process of locating. Posts: 2,154	As much as it pains me to say this.... HR is right.

01-30-2004, 12:57 AM	#115
JML Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The act or process of locating. Posts: 2,154	This is becoming painful.

01-30-2004, 12:57 AM	#116
matskralc Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,076	^^ Best.Sig.Ever. THANKS FOR RUINING IT JML!!!1 __________________ Well, they have a saying here in Texas ... but they probably don't have it in California, so never mind. OTBL - Pennsylvania Fightin' Amish ABC - Pittsburgh Puma OCHO - Pittsburgh Pirates EBU - Commissioner

01-30-2004, 01:00 AM	#117
JML Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The act or process of locating. Posts: 2,154	Why thank you, mats. btw, you're welcome.

01-30-2004, 01:00 AM	#118
Kezzek All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Keyboard - frantically typing in subtle insults to raise my self-esteem Posts: 973	64210....remember the number!!! Rockze is still amazing. __________________ - Kez, P.E.