Historical minor leagues

[Habsfan18]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

I spoke with Spritze and Markus and it seems that leaving the Southern Association out was indeed an oversight, not a design decision. There are just too many darn leagues to keep track of!

So the Southern Association will indeed make it into the game, as the oversight is currently being corrected

You guys are awesome!

[swampdragon]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

No one will ever be able to build a reliable data set, because the data simply doesn't exist and cannot be replicated. The best anyone can ever do is educated guesswork, and that's just not good enough.

There's just enough to be tempting, and other companies have sold Negro League disks, both All-Star and for particular seasons. I don't know how much gap filling they had to do, but I'd suspect quite a bit. What certainly doesn't exist is enough individual stats to provide ratings for full leagues for decades of Negro League baseball to be simmed OOTP style. It would of necessity be essentially a fictional league (although the names would be real) for the Kansas City Monarchs and a couple of other teams we do have information about to perform in. At least that's the impression I get from BB Reference and Seamheads, which are the best of the publicly available sources.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by bwburke94

Regarding the 1942 Three-I League, B-R doesn't have much data for it, and it was the last year before it folded for WWII. Also, there was a team in Wisconsin for some reason.

As for the 1954 Dodgers, neither St. Paul nor Montreal can reasonably be dropped.

I just made those examples up. I dunno if there's actually anything weird with them in game, probably not

[bwburke94]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

I just made those examples up. I dunno if there's actually anything weird with them in game, probably not

There's definitely something wrong with 1942, because of WWII.

In OOTP, if a team folds by historic evolution then their players are in "limbo" instead of being released. Is that fixed?

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by bwburke94

In OOTP, if a team folds by historic evolution then their players are in "limbo" instead of being released. Is that fixed?

Not sure.

[mitchkenn]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

There's just enough to be tempting, and other companies have sold Negro League disks, both All-Star and for particular seasons. I don't know how much gap filling they had to do, but I'd suspect quite a bit. What certainly doesn't exist is enough individual stats to provide ratings for full leagues for decades of Negro League baseball to be simmed OOTP style. It would of necessity be essentially a fictional league (although the names would be real) for the Kansas City Monarchs and a couple of other teams we do have information about to perform in. At least that's the impression I get from BB Reference and Seamheads, which are the best of the publicly available sources.

i personally have a handful of books on the negro leagues, there are some sites on-line (seamheads is one) that has some data on the Negro League players. But at best it's all marginal and VERY incomplete. Some one mentioned the schedules were not adhered to very well and more money was made barnstorming, which is exactly what i've found. To compensate for that, i just made a crude (and not very accurate) folder on my computer of players and years they started in the Negro Leagues and ESTIMATED stats, and manually add them into my games as free agents, and it works for me, which is all that really matters. Even found player pictures (on Seamheads.com) but that got to be way too much work with some personal issues i was dealing with (darn life getting in the way of OOTP!!!) and i stopped looking after a couple of seasons. Anyway, point being - there will never be enough info to actually have a minors of Negro leagues due to their scheduling and horrid player stats keeping. Best we could hope for is players being added as free agents or something according to their sketchy personal history and hearsay of their abilities. Spritz did a really good job in his data base but i don't know how that will work with 17?

i'd love it if there could be a Negro Leagues minors .... but it just isn't possible i'm afraid. Rant over.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by mitchkenn

i'd love it if there could be a Negro Leagues minors .... but it just isn't possible i'm afraid. Rant over.

Having spoken with Spritze about this, I do think it's possible. I know he thinks so and he's the magician behind this.

You're right in that the data is sketchy at best and there's a lot that has to be estimated and filled in and massaged and will never be close to perfect, but frankly that's the case with much of the the early MiLB data we're using here as well.

All this isn't to say that it'll certainly happen in OOTP18 or whenever, but there really is reason for optimism re: the Negro Leagues!

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

Having spoken with Spritze about this, I do think it's possible. I know he thinks so.

You're right in that the data is sketchy at best and there's a lot that has to be estimated and filled in and massaged and will never be close to perfect, but frankly that's the case with much of the the early MiLB data we're using here as well.

All this isn't to say that it'll certainly happen in OOTP18 or whenever, but there really is reason for optimism re: the Negro Leagues!

So, still using Spritze database (which is awesome - mind blown over how many hours he's put into this game over the years) for access to Negro Leaguers?

[Daletiel]

Historical minor leagues are totally a game changer for me, and will probably push me over the edge to pre-order as opposed to waiting for a sale. So exciting!

One quick question that I don't think has been addressed in the discussion thus far: if an existing historical team gets relocated, since the historical ID doesn't change will the automatic changes to the minors continue, or will it break it because the team isn't where the system expects it to be?

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

So, still using Spritze database (which is awesome - mind blown over how many hours he's put into this game over the years) for access to Negro Leaguers?

I would think that would be doable. You'd need to modify the db and remove everyone that's included in the official db, but it should be possible without a massive amount of trouble.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by Daletiel

One quick question that I don't think has been addressed in the discussion thus far: if an existing historical team gets relocated, since the historical ID doesn't change will the automatic changes to the minors continue, or will it break it because the team isn't where the system expects it to be?

I'm guessing here more than I know for sure, but so long as the ID remains correct, I suspect the game will be able to keep up with the automatic changes.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

I would think that would be doable. You'd need to modify the db and remove everyone that's included in the official db, but it should be possible without a massive amount of trouble.

No need to modify anything. Can pull them in with the "Import Historical Player" tool using the Spritze database embedded inside the regular database. That's how I've been doing it in this version anyway. Still haven't gotten a Negro Leaguer yet (I use a random number generator to determine who comes in), but lots of Japanese players, some Koreans, lots of PCLers, and even one manager who only played in the minor leagues (Harry Dunlop).

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

No need to modify anything. Can pull them in with the "Import Historical Player" tool using the Spritze database embedded inside the regular database. That's how I've been doing it in this version anyway. Still haven't gotten a Negro Leaguer yet (I use a random number generator to determine who comes in), but lots of Japanese players, some Koreans, lots of PCLers, and even one manager who only played in the minor leagues (Harry Dunlop).

Oh yeah, good point!

[frangipard]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

No one will ever be able to build a reliable data set, because the data simply doesn't exist and cannot be replicated. The best anyone can ever do is educated guesswork, and that's just not good enough.

If the options are "the best educated guesswork we can do" and "no negro leagues ever," most people would opt for the guesswork.

[Spritze]

I am not sure how much data is needed to recreate a players skill set but I bet probably not as much as you might think.

[Eugene Church]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

I spoke with Spritze and Markus and it seems that leaving the Southern Association out was indeed an oversight, not a design decision. There are just too many darn leagues to keep track of!

So the Southern Association will indeed make it into the game, as the oversight is currently being corrected

Wow!!

Great News!!

Special thanks to lukaberger for bringing this huge oversight to Spritze and Markus' attention... Kudos to them, too, for including it.

In reality the Southern Association and the Texas League were vital to MLB teams... they were the only Double A leagues... many Major Leaguers passed through these two important leagues.

The only differences in the Major Leagues and the Double A players were mainly these:

The Major League players could hit breaking balls... and the Major League pitchers had breaking balls, control, command and location of their pitches... that made them superior to the Double A players, who could throw just as hard as the MLB pitchers... their stuff was just as good.. but they couldn't locate like the Majors... the Double A batters could hit MLB fastballs, but couldn't handle the breaking stuff.

When the Double A players had command of their pitches and when they could hit breaking balls, they made the Majors.

Brooklyn would play Mobile in Spring Training in Vero Beach and sometimes in Mobile at Hartwell Field... the Dodgers won, but the games were usually competitive... rarely runaways.


In 1956 these Southern Association teams had working agreements:

Mobile Bears (Brooklyn)
Birmingham Barons (New York Yankees)
New Orleans Pelicans (Pittsburgh)
Chattanooga Lookouts (Washington)
Memphis Chicks (Chicago White Sox)
Nashville Vols (Cincinnati)
Little Rock Travelers (Detroit)
Atlanta Crackers (Milwaukee Braves)

Texas League working agreement or ownership

Houston Buffaloes (St. Louis Cardinals)
Dallas Eagles (New York Giants)
Tulsa Oilers (Chicago Cubs)
Fort Worth Cats (Brooklyn)
San Antonio Missions (Baltimore)
Austin Senators (Milwaukee Braves)
Oklahoma City Indians (Boston Red Sox)
Shreveport Sports (Independent)

[Caporegime]

Originally Posted by Eugene Church

Wow!!

Great News!!

Special thanks to lukaberger for bringing this huge oversight to Spritze and Markus' attention... Kudos to them, too, for including it.

In reality the Southern Association and the Texas League were vital to MLB teams... they were the only Double A leagues... many Major Leaguers passed through these two important leagues.

The only differences in the Major Leagues and the Double A players were mainly these:

the Major League players could hit breaking balls... and the Major League pitchers had breaking balls, control, command and location of their pitches... that made them superior to the Double A players, who could throw just as hard as the MLB pitchers... their stuff was just as good.. but they couldn't locate like the Majors... the Double A batters could hit MLB fastballs, but couldn't handle the breaking stuff.

When the Double A players had command of their pitches and when they could hit breaking balls, they made the Majors.

Brooklyn would play Mobile in Spring Training on Vero Beach and sometimes in Mobile at Hartwell Field... the Dodgers won, but the games were usually competitive... rarely runaways.


In 1956 these Southern Association teams had working agreements:

Mobile Bears (Brooklyn)
Birmingham Barons (New York Yankees)
New Orleans Pelicans (Pittsburgh)
Chattanooga Lookouts (Washington)
Memphis Chicks (Chicago White Sox)
Nashville Vols (Cincinnati)
Little Rock Travelers (Detroit)
Atlanta Crackers (Milwaukee Braves)

Texas League working agreement or ownership

Houston Buffaloes (St. Louis Cardinals)
Dallas Eagles (New York Giants)
Tulsa Oilers (Chicago Cubs)
Fort Worth Cats (Brooklyn)
San Antonio Missions (Baltimore)
Austin Senators (Milwaukee Braves)
Oklahoma City Indians (Boston Red Sox)
Shreveport Sports (Independent)

Seconded, echoed, rubber-stamped and heartily endorsed.

[Eugene Church]

Originally Posted by Spritze

I an not sure how much data is needed to recreate a players skill set but I bet probably not as much as you might think.

Several years ago I incorporated Negro and Japanese players in one of my fictional dynasties along with all-time MLB stars... the All-time All-Star Association.

I found a Negro League encyclopedia at the library that gave wonderfully detailed writeups on the Negro League players... I had another Negro Player history book that I used.

I also located a database of Negro League stats and used them.

Using all of this research I could usually find out the players' speed, arm, stuff, batting power and defensive skills... and whether or not they were a power or finesse pitcher.

I also found a website by an American that love Japanese baseball... he lived in Japan... he gave great details about the great Japanese players.

From them I could glean most of the their playing skills and create ratings for them. It took a while, but the results was pretty authentic.

[Le Grande Orange]

For those interested in the Southern Association, the following book might be of interest: The Southern Association in Baseball, 1885-1961 by Marshall D. Wright. He's also written books on the American Association, International League, South Atlantic League (1904-63), Texas League, and the Eastern League (1923-2005).

[mgom27]

Do we need historical Lineups and Transactions turned so no Transaction Errors happen?