Anyone still not purchased yet...

[masoo]

I pre-ordered, so I'm no help on the "still haven't purchased" front. I convinced my brother to buy a copy ... well, I'm not sure if he bought a copy for himself or his son/my nephew, but whatever, they got a copy. I've also written about it some on my blog, which doesn't exactly have a huge readership, and those that do read it aren't game-sim players, so that's likely meant little (although an artist friend is fascinated with FaceGen).

I'll keep typing for a bit, even though I think this thread is more for folks to explain why they didn't buy than to explain why we did. I fear I'm just a fanboy (odd term to use for a 53-year-old), but ...

I've been playing CM/FM for almost a decade, and believe it to be the greatest game of them all. And I am a big soccer fan, which helps ... but I'm also an American, a Giants fan since 1958, so baseball's got a bit more of a hold on me than soccer. Pretty much since the first time I played ChampMan, I thought "damn, I wish they had one of these for baseball!" I've tried Mogul and PureSim, and have no real complaints about either ... I got some good playing time out of them. But from the first time I played OOTP ... I can never remember the version, maybe 2? ... I knew it was the one. This was back when OOTP still had what I can only call a "German" feel to it, as if the programmer hadn't yet gotten the game under his skin ... the stats were good, but the text and just something indefinable was a bit off. Like if I had created ChampMan, I guess. In any event, I was hooked, and have gotten every version since.

Point of all this is, I was going to buy OOTP 2007 no matter what, just as I always buy each new version of FM. I never minded OOTP 2006 that much ... now that we've got 2007, the limits of the 2006 UI are clear, but back then, it just felt like a baseball version of the FM UI, so I didn't care.

I feel like the above is a bit off topic, but it seems important to include in this thread some of the reasons why some of us DID buy the game already. Not to disparage those who haven't ... far as I can tell from reading this thread, there are plenty of good reasons to hold off. But as for me, if my students knew that the real reason I haven't finished grading their latest essays is because I'm trying to decide whether or not to change the facial hair on my slumping short-stop ... well, you get the idea.

[red95vette]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

I'd be interested in hearing the reasons why you've not yet laid out for the game.

OK, here is my laundry list, not in any particular order. Nothing here is intended to be overly critical. These comments are particular to myself only and may be in the minority versus the general gaming community.

First the background. I am a 38yo gamer with a preference for sporting/racing simulators. Although I've enjoyed games like MVP 05 and MLB the Show, these games are less interesting to me as I age and am more interested in intellectual games that challenge the mind more than twitch muscles. I love the great graphics from games like these, but it's hard to stay immersed in the experience when the season stats show (for example with "The Show") that your team is first in BA, first in ERA, last in strikeouts, last in walks, first in hits, et cetera. I'm now on a quest for a proper baseball sim.

2005: I started my quest with Baseball Mogul. I purchased the game based on a favorable game site review, but quickly found myself getting bored with it. It was much too easy especially once one figured out the very basic financial system and AI GM tendenacies.

2006: After playing the BM demo, I thought things had improved enough to warrant a purchase. I enjoyed this version a bit more. But the game was still too easy to beat and was pretty much bug ridden as well. After waiting patiently for patches and realizing for every issue "fixed" another seemed to break, baseball season came and went and my entusiam for BM waned as well, probably forever.

Tried OOTP 2006 demo looking for a change/alternative. Well, more accurately I should say downloaded the demo, installed it, tried to run it. But, the UI was attrocious and the game crawled on my PC. After about 3-4 hours of pure frustration, I gave up on the 2006 demo and started looking forward to football season.

2007: Since BM did an open beta, I decided to have another look. Some changes were made to the game, but incredibly it seems to be even MORE bug ridden than last year's game. It became pretty clear as opening day approached that BM would remain very buggy. I wish developers would focus on making existing features work in the 99%+ range with better and more extensive testing BEFORE adding any new features whatsoever. Likewise, why does it seem that new enhancements often break stuff that used to work? That's simply poor programming practices. I'm a self-employed engineer who designs and programs automation systems. I know coding bug-free software is more difficult and time-consuming. But believe me it is VERY possible with proper testing. Try doing a control system for a pharmaceutical plant some time and you'll see what I mean.

Anyway, still on my quest I've given OOTP another try this year.

First impression was that this year's game is MUCH better. BUT, after trying several times to become immersed in the experience, here's where I stand.

The UI is STILL too cumbersome. Yes, I've gotten used to it and could live with it, but still it seems like a chore rather than fun to play.

I've tried to start a few fictional leagues, but have a real hard time developing affinity for the "unknown names". Plus more importantly, I am not thrilled by the options available for starting such a game.

E.G., I started a game with inaugural draft. But, I HATE the fact that playing this way allows you to sign everyone to minor league contracts with financials being assigned later. I'd rather have each player assigned a "price" in terms of either an existing contract or what they demand to earn.

So, I tried again and this time, started a game with players on teams and then released everyone to free agency. This was initially a lot more fun for me. Except.... I got nearly every single player I wanted-- many for less than the contract they were asking.

As an experiment, I redid the above process again, but this time. I didn't make immediate offers to the FAs. Instead I did "Act As" on other teams in the league and noticed NONE had any FA offers out. So, I surmised that they take some time in making these offers and thus I had an advantage apparently in making offers on day 1. I simed a day and checked again. But then again disappointment... yes teams were making offers now. But guess what, most teams were after the exact same players. Yeah that's understandable to a certain degree. But when checking out the situation using "act as" each team seemed to be offering the EXACT same amount to the FAs they were bidding for.

This completely disillusioned me regarding the computer GM AI. I mean each team should have different agendas. One might value pitching/defense more; one wants power hitters; et cetera. And more importantly, these different teams should have tempered their offer prices to the FAs based on what their financial budgets looked like and what their individual scounting viewpoint was for the players. They were not doing this.

So, I'm not an online league type of guy and therefore my decision to buy/not buy OOTP is strongly influenced based on my confidence in getting a challenge from the AI both in terms of competitiveness and differentiation between teams. This experience didn't bode well from that regard.

Other niggly issues abound. I dislike the fact that OOTP used league totals for BA, Hits, HRs, et cetera. That makes ratings a sliding scale I feel. For instance if suddenly all the Ace pitchers in a league were replaced by high-school rejects (either due to rampant illiness, injuries, or alien abduction for that matter) whilst the star batters blossomed, I'd expect better BAs, more HRs, less strikeouts, et cetera -- and vice-versa if the situation is reversed. I dislike thinking the "SIM" is adjusting gameplay based on a stats quota that is predetermined.

I also have found the computer depth chart and batting order generation to be suspect in my opinion. Again, this makes me feel unchallenged if I'm properly creating depth charts and BOs for my guys but playing computer GMs where this process is sub optimal.

In summary I'd say that my experiences with the demo were somewhat positive and will cause me to continue to check in on progress of OOTP in the future, but probably won't lead to a near-term purchase.

In closing, for ME PERSONALLY the two biggest thing I'm after are as follows. (1) I'd much rather have a game that has less features/functionality, but each of those features is nearly bulletproof. (2) I want challenging computer AI with personality (i.e., all teams don't all go after the same guys and offer the same contract offers).

I hope these comments are valuable to you. I'd be happy to answer any questions regarding these views either in this forum or via PMs if it would provide any further insight.

Sorry for such a long response, but I have a tendancy to get too detailed a lot of times. ;-)

[Dagrims]

Excellent detailed post red95vette. Welcome to the forum - that's some valuable information for Marc and the gang to consider.

[MorseMoose]

Originally Posted by Dagrims

Excellent detailed post red95vette. Welcome to the forum - that's some valuable information for Marc and the gang to consider.

"

One of the better first posts I've read in a while.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by MorseMoose

"

One of the better first posts I've read in a while.

Indeed. Well written and nicely laid out.

I agree on some of your thoughts as I still prefer the simplicity of the v6 UI, but the game really has me immersed for the first time since v6.5.

red95vette,

Have you played Front Office Football? Seems like it would be right up your alley as far as football sims go.

[OmahaBaseball]

Originally Posted by Bobbo

One thing I really liked was the pre made fake MLB that shipped with version 6. It was good to jump into something that looked somewhat familiar and had accurate rosters, just fake names. It was easy to start hating Pedro deGuzman instead of Alex Rodriguez.

Same here - real player stats with "mixed up" player names and teams - it was easy to fix and made for quick immersion into the game.

[OmahaBaseball]

Originally Posted by kq76

The demo limit of only going to August 1st is far too of a restrictive factor in testing the game to help decide one way or another to buy the game and especially in recommending to an online league of whether they should switch or not. You basically just have to go off what other online leagues are saying so far, which isn't much. And then, what they do say you pretty much just have to take their word for it and if you don't know them well from playing against them, it can really be difficult to have faith in their assessment. I don't mind the 21 real day limit, but the partial season limit is just not enough. You at least need to see what the results are after an off-season.

Agreed - With a game that prides itself on player development, stats, etc - how can we judge any of that by playing to August. I understand the 21 days limit - I could even understand restricting the game to the start of the following season, but to limit the game to August does a disservice to the game's very strengths.

[Bishop]

I have to agree. I can say I've bypassed games after the demo because I just couldn't check out all the features that occured in an 'offseason'.

[endgame]

Originally Posted by red95vette

the two biggest thing I'm after are as follows. (1) I'd much rather have a game that has less features/functionality, but each of those features is nearly bulletproof. (2) I want challenging computer AI with personality (i.e., all teams don't all go after the same guys and offer the same contract offers).

Great comments, 'vette, and all while maintaining a very rational approach. Thanks for that. As to the last two personal areas you mentioned, I have to believe the majority of us, if we thought about long enough, couldn't agree more. It'd make a adequate and complete suggestion/wishlist. The rest'd be perks. Again, thanks for the candor and welcome to the forums.

[Bishop]

Originally Posted by Neags23

The creation of this thread makes me worry a little that sales of OOTP 2007 are falling short of expectations. And that makes me worry about future versions of OOTP. [...]

So, Marc asking (seemingly pleading) for people to tell him why they haven't bought, asking if those that have bought have convinced others to buy, mixed in with Markus's stress issues... all leads me to worry about flat sales which leads me to worry about the future of OOTP.

Though perhaps I'm just way off base and worry too much.

Originally Posted by Sdpm100

I don't think it is right for me to keep repeating what I've said in other threads here so I'll just say that as EHM was cancelled it suggests (to me at least) that the same thing could quite easily happen to OOTP, maybe even after this iteration.

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

Lets spread the word so we never even get to this point.

I kind of wondered that myself reading the threads last night, and they way they came across.

I must say I am curious about the future now, which is sad, considering how things have improved.

[endgame]

Originally Posted by Sdpm100

I don't think it is right for me to keep repeating what I've said in other threads here so I'll just say that as EHM was cancelled it suggests (to me at least) that the same thing could quite easily happen to OOTP, maybe even after this iteration.

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

Lets spread the word so we never even get to this point.

I don't know if that's a calculated attempt at effective panic-marketing or an ounce of affirmation exists in answer to Sdpm's concerns.
Not the most reassuring of your possible choices of responses.

[BCStone57]

I also have bought every version since OOTP4 and really loved all the versions until 2006 came out. I took a wait and see attitude to hear what people said about 2006 and eventually downloaded the demo and really didnt like it at all, I felt the game had been ruined. I love 6.5 and I would be hard pressed to give it up unless a significantly better game came out. I have downloaded 2007 and there is a lot I really like about this game, but also some things I don't that will probably make me stay with 6.5 for the time being. What I love about 6.5 is it's ease of use and it's not overly done. It has everything I need in a sim. I like being in control of the baserunners because it give's me a little more suspense than not having control over them. It's the little things I love about this game, Yes it dosent have all the bells and whistles that 2007 has, but to me it still is a better game.

[sfgiants88]

Originally Posted by endgame

I don't know if that's a calculated attempt at effective panic-marketing or an ounce of affirmation exists in answer to Sdpm's concerns.
Not the most reassuring of your possible choices of responses.

No kidding. Ugghhh.

[chanman]

I have been playing since version 5. I also have bought EHM,BBCF,TCB, etc so you can tell I really love this genre of games. Here are my reasons why I haven't bought this year.
1. Last year. It was unplayable. It basically turned out to be 2007.5. I did not appreciate being charged $35 to beta test for you guys. And I know this has been said plenty of times so no need to dwell on that. But by saying you didn't just wash your hands of it by having a meeting in Germany about it so you didn't put out 2 straight crappy games doesn't prove otherwise. There was nothing done to try and bring back the unhappy customers from the last go around. I work in the corporate world where a part of my job is sales and if I tried to tell my clients that I'd be out on my butt. Without some sort of financial incentive to get back on board there is no reason to reward a company who has given you sub-par service in the past.
2. The demo is way too restrictive. Other companies offer a set number of weeks of unlimited play. There is no reason to stop the demo during the season. It actually discourages me from buying it by frustrating me further. This is a policy that needs to be looked at.
I think that should do it for now.

[EGGUZMAN]

I know you guys are sick of this already....I tried the demo, still boring!!!, no baseball sound or animation to keep me interested..sorry, I know this game is the best for a text BB game, but I can't seems to get into it. I feel like I'm working on spreadsheets...I hope next year Mark can be a little inovated and include some BB sounds or a some sort of a radio anouncer....

Peace
Ernesto

[JMowery]

It appears desperation is indeed in effect, I had thought about why this thread was created, and now I can already see it, OOTP is indeed falling short of expectations of SI, and if they don't turn a profit with this game this year or next, I'm willing to bet Sega will cut them loose as well. I didn't fully realize it when this thread was created, but it appears to be more serious than I had given first thought.

Maybe the demand for Baseball and Hockey sims is just not big enough to support the cost of developing the game?


I did purchase the game because I do like SI, and I like Football Manager, but I think it's clear that this thread is an indication that things need to get better with regards to game sales.

I just hope in 2008 some major changes happen to the interface, make it faster to navigate, easier to compare players, and take some things from Football Manager with regards to player interactions and player development and such.

I'd be really sad to see Sega cut this project as well.


Please, search the community for real roster makers and offer them the tools to make rosters, and maybe help them join together as a group to do their own thing so it isn't in the hands of one person, as even though I don't mind the fictional stuff, I think it hurt the spirits of a lot of customers and probably cost you guys potential big bucks from the people that would have bought if there were rosters available.

Just some help, I hope this isn't the final version of the game, or soon to be make or break, but, gotta fix this interface and make it faster to navigate and easier to compare stats, move players around, look at information, check player development, and all that, I think that is the key, and should be a top priority from here on.

Also, make it more fun for non hardcore sim guys, I always liked how FM would snatch you away from the game with the interaction, the tutoring, the news, the halftime talks, the player promises, mutual terminations, it really gives the feeling that you are really interacting with your players.

OOTP, I must say, feels just strictly like a simulator, with a "Play the Game" mode thrown in as an added bonus.

I just think that FM does a really good job of making you feel like you have to deal with your players and get to know them and deal with their short term and long term goals and all that stuff, it just makes it so much fun.

Add in some media, add in player interaction, make it seem like we have to deal with players, we have to deal with fans concerns, we have to deal with players not getting along with each other and such. Player personality, and human-like behavior was amazing in FM and it would just be out of this world to see that in OOTP.

These are only my personal opinion, but, just make the game more fun and accessible to the average user and give us things to interact with, player drama on and off the field. Maybe a player gets jealous and talks to the media about another player and it starts havok in the whole team, and you are forced with having to talk to them, or go to the media and tell them they both will lose their job if they don't shut it or whatever.

[rbartlett]

Good comments, Vette.

Let me give everyone my story... even though I've purchased the game. For those that haven't, maybe this will help you decide.

I, too, am a 38 year old gamer (or nearly so)... so I'm not a 'young' guy despite the fact that I own a playstation and have purchased and played the console baseball games as well as online sim games.

I tend to enjoy different varities of games, as long as they capture and hold my attention.

Let's face facts. The 'console' baseball games give out one type of enjoyment... while you get something completely different from something like OOTP.

However, you're never going to get a 'perfect' sim from either. It's impossible no matter how much you want it to be so. It's impossible to accurately simulate the human mind.

I played fantasy baseball for years until a friend of mine turned me on to a High Heat sim league a couple of years ago that a group of guys had been running since 2001.

I found it fascinating. I liked the added realism of being able to test myself in a different way than I was in the fantasy leagues.

See, I'm a baseball geek. It's okay. It's self-admitted and despite the fact that this will sound a little conceited.. not only am I a geek but I'm a walking dictionary when it comes to baseball. There's little I don't know about the game.. whether it's historical or present day.

I didn't even mind that in that High Heat game it was the year 2009 already and a lot of the players were 'fictional'. I just liked the challenge.

But honestly after a while it became somewhat boring as the 'sim engine' in High Heat is flawed. Seriously flawed.

So last year I downloaded and tried both Baseball Mogul and OOTP 6.

Baseball Mogul won out. No it wasn't perfect, but it was better than High Heat and honestly (despite what I consider a pretty good intelligence level on my part).. I just got frustrated with the complexity of even trying to start an OOTP game.

Well 2007 comes around and without a 2nd thought I purchased the newest Baseball Mogul 2008 (don't ask me why it's 2008).... and didn't give OOTP a 2nd thought.........

until after playing BM for about 4 days I just wanted to throw it out the window.

Not only was it a complete step back.. but it was full of bugs.. and the sim engine had reverted back to something that I thought was even worse than High Heat back in 2002.

So, somewhat desperately, I came back to OOTP after hearing rumors of an 'extreme makeover' and downloaded the free trial version.

I purchased the game later that night after playing with it for about 4 hours.

Is it perfect? As I explained no sim will ever be.

Is it about as close to perfect as maybe anyone should expect? Probably not. We each have our own wish list of things that could be... or should be added.. and there probably always will be little things that will be tweaked.

But let's face facts. As a human player, playing against a computer sim there are always going to be problems with the game. You 'should' be able to beat it.

But that doesn't mean that if you play 'fair' you can't have a great relationship with the game... and basically set it up to be as fair as it can be... and as honest a sim (especially historical) as you'll find anywhere.

But... and this is to you, Vette, and those like you.

If you REALLY want a challenge. Buy the game and join an online league.

Then you get the best of both worlds.

You're playing what I consider the best baseball sim there is on the market...... and you're playing it against real competition that you can't manipulate.... and you can't fake it against.

In the end there are a lot of comments and wish lists and honestly just plain gripes on this forum about what people want or expect.

Some of them are probably good suggestions.. some are just suggestions coming from people that expect everything handed to them on a silver spoon... and others are suggestions that while might be decent ideas... just probably aren't plausible in the game.

Some people want to complain about real rosters... and others want to argue about why the game does this or that.

My suggestion is take the game for what it is.

Be appreciative of the work that a group of guys do on this site to make this game even that more enjoyable (the face packs, modifications... and yes, even the rosters for those that do them - or just do them yourself if you're that desperate to have it done right away)....

And for those of you that haven't even given it a chance.

Download the free trial version and don't get intimidated when you can't just 'plug and play'. That's not what this game is about.

And I, for one, am happy that it's not.

To me, it's just about a perfect mix of 'playability' and 'simulation'.

I think if you give it a shot.. a real shot... you'll feel the same in a very short time.

[Marc Duffy]

I know you guys are sick of this already....I tried the demo, still boring!!!, no baseball sound or animation to keep me interested..sorry, I know this game is the best for a text BB game, but I can't seems to get into it. I feel like I'm working on spreadsheets...I hope next year Mark can be a little inovated and include some BB sounds or a some sort of a radio anouncer....

Peace
Ernesto

I honestly fail to see how that can be the deciding factor in a text sim. Surely, it's gameplay that should be the killer?

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by BCStone57

I also have bought every version since OOTP4 and really loved all the versions until 2006 came out. I took a wait and see attitude to hear what people said about 2006 and eventually downloaded the demo and really didnt like it at all, I felt the game had been ruined. I love 6.5 and I would be hard pressed to give it up unless a significantly better game came out. I have downloaded 2007 and there is a lot I really like about this game, but also some things I don't that will probably make me stay with 6.5 for the time being. What I love about 6.5 is it's ease of use and it's not overly done. It has everything I need in a sim. I like being in control of the baserunners because it give's me a little more suspense than not having control over them. It's the little things I love about this game, Yes it dosent have all the bells and whistles that 2007 has, but to me it still is a better game.

How about a 5 day preview to further evaluate the game engine?

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by CHOWDERHEAD

Agreed - With a game that prides itself on player development, stats, etc - how can we judge any of that by playing to August. I understand the 21 days limit - I could even understand restricting the game to the start of the following season, but to limit the game to August does a disservice to the game's very strengths.

A demo is meant to be a taster of the game. You should generally know quite quickly if you are interested in purchasing.