Competitive balance discussion

[matingly23]

Originally Posted by stl jason

then go play solo league in commissioner mode so you can control everything... sheesh.



my F2P/pack-only team just got swept in their silver league LCS and outscored 31-12.... I guess I should whine and complain until I get the devs to make me a personal league where I can win it all without spending any money....


on the other side of my silver league, my F2P/pre-ww2 team is up 2-1 in their series... if they're lucky, they win their LCS and meet the team that kicked my other team's backside... if my other team meets the same fate, so be it... still was a fun and entertaining season.

I don't need to "control everything", my free team just made it to the round before the Silver WS, and my other profile is almost in that same WS, they need one more win. They will then get CREAMED by WHALES.

I don't know how long you've played this game, but there's no need to be in Commish mode to avoid BS like this in plain OOTP.

This is ridiculously one-sided and broken.

[el_gringo]

Originally Posted by matingly23

As much as I am complaining, I have an idea that would both create $$ and keep things balanced.

Offer an option to be in a league of teams that can not buy any PP.

But to be in such a league, you must pay a monthly subscription fee.

I'd be down for that if the fee is reasonable. I'm willing to pay a little bit to have a fair league.

This has been proposed a lot; there's a sizable group that would like this option and happily pay a reasonable subscription/one-time-buy-in-fee/whatever, but it's a non-starter right now for Markus and the team due to the potential financial implications of offering an alternative to the PT revenue that must pay for itself at present if we all want PT to continue. Plus, setting up a whole other environment would take time and energy away from the extant league; hopefully this will be less of a concern once new coders are hired from the proceeds of PT.

While I understand all that for the present, I maintain that it would be a good piece of fan service to someday go back and offer this for older versions (i.e. once OOTP 20/21/22 are out, go back and create a subscription-based, truly level playing field in the 19 engine). So, I'm happy to see the idea continuing to pop up

I think it'll make simple economic sense as part of some future OOTP business model, because such a subscription eventually won't inherently detract directly from a singular PT revenue stream, but that's not the case yet sadly.

Tournaments, etc. in 20+ will also help create more gameplay variation and options, and certain of those will inevitably be capped in player cost/quality/etc., creating something at least similar to what you mention.

My own two cents about competitive balance, having played a few teams for a few weeks now:

Pretty good, overall, though smallball still feels super weak from an economic standpoint.

My grandfather has been able to reach Diamond leagues as a F2P player with little knowledge of modern analytics, and is holding his own. He has a solid team of players he loved watching as a kid and young adult, plus some modern favorites. He loves 'RBI guys,' and often calls saying 'I've got several thousand points to spend, and I need your advice on a few auctions.' He almost always buys the 'best RBI guy' being considered at any given position, regardless of my advice.

My F2P team has fared rather worse than his in record and points; it feels like PP generation for smallball teams still lags behind that of 'three true outcomes' teams, but the gap has definitely narrowed since the beta. Lots of small-score bronze achievements, but few silver/gold ones accomplished by contact/speed lineups. Regardless, I think the guys are really ready to put it all together this coming season and crawl back up to gold after an embarrassing couple of collapses and a very low PP budget for the first few seasons...

My 'smallish whale/large dolphin' team is competing just fine with the $1,000+ WHALES up in Perfect by pursing a smallball/defense strategy. Still feels like it has low PP generation/achievements compared to other teams of similar calibre, but it's less noticeable when you spend money/flip high-level cards to build your team instead of waiting for achievements. The big HR/strikeout teams just seem to get far more silver/gold achievements than I do, and I don't think the bronze ones quite compensate cumulatively.

There's no real competing against the WHALES by F2P teams, but we're still in early days for the league sorting so there should be fewer WHALES still in gold/silver leagues soon. More than 5 league levels might be useful though, given the sheer volume of teams. I don't know if more levels can be added or not, or if promotion/relegation within the perfect league level (i.e. between perfect leagues, creating one more recursive layer of sorting amongst the WHALES and the very best F2P/dolphin teams) is possible, but I can certainly imagine a strong case for more sorting layers than exist now.

[mcdog512]

Originally Posted by matingly23

I don't need to "control everything", my free team just made it to the round before the Silver WS, and my other profile is almost in that same WS, they need one more win. They will then get CREAMED by WHALES.

I don't know how long you've played this game, but there's no need to be in Commish mode to avoid BS like this in plain OOTP.

This is ridiculously one-sided and broken.

Here's the thing. You made your point. After the 300th time you make the same point it gets tiresome.

[matingly23]

That's fine, then the Whales can enjoy because if this keeps up I'll just stop playing.

It was fun and can be made very fun, This is their first attempt at PT and it has some severe kinks in it.

I'm fine with putting it aside while they work those kinks out. Losing to Whales isn't baseball, it's just being outspent which is lame.

[mcdog512]

Originally Posted by matingly23

That's fine, then the Whales can enjoy because if this keeps up I'll just stop playing.

It was fun and can be made very fun, This is their first attempt at PT and it has some severe kinks in it.

I'm fine with putting it aside while they work those kinks out. Losing to Whales isn't baseball, it's just being outspent which is lame.

Actually being outspent because MLB is too weak to get a salary cap in is what baseball is all about.......so in a a sense it's realistic.

[el_gringo]

Capping the whole league would have interesting effects (some good, some bad, all disruptive at this point), but as discussed won't happen for 19's sole environment. These discussions are good for seeding and refining ideas for future versions though, which will probably be more varied and numerous.

Salary caps will likely be (from my understanding) incorporated into some tournaments and other features in OOTP 20+, and perhaps there will be enough servers for multiple differently-configured leagues someday.

I'd love to have a rating capped league and/or tournaments in future versions! I agree it would add a fun strategic layer, one the optimizer/economist in me would really dig.

[webdox]

Originally Posted by mcdog512

Actually being outspent because MLB is too weak to get a salary cap in is what baseball is all about.......so in a a sense it's realistic.

Luxury tax and we all split the PP proceeds

[mcdog512]

I will say this mode is brand new so throwing around new ideas is a good thing.

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by mcdog512

Actually being outspent because MLB is too weak to get a salary cap in is what baseball is all about.......so in a a sense it's realistic.

The equivalent in MLB would be a team who can sign anyone from the entire history of baseball and has a payroll of 10 billion dollars.

MLB does have things in place to limit salaries such as a luxury tax and draft penalties. PT encourages unlimited spending, even between playoff series.

[mcdog512]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

The equivalent in MLB would be a team who can sign anyone from the entire history of baseball and has a payroll of 10 billion dollars.

MLB does have things in place to limit salaries such as a luxury tax and draft penalties. PT encourages unlimited spending, even between playoff series.

Those things are small speed bumps. You generate enough local revenue and it means nothing.

What real baseball doesn't have (which would be great by the way) is a promotion and relegation system. That moves high spending team away from you.

[zrog2000]

I think rating cap leagues would lead to the same players being on every player over and over. Ichiro and Len Barker would be on every team, etc.

I'm more on board with paid leagues that don't allow PP spending.

[webdox]

I just want a draft at the beginning of each season where a few 100 cards are thrown in and I, of course, always get to pick 1st

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by mcdog512

Those things are small speed bumps. You generate enough local revenue and it means nothing.

What real baseball doesn't have (which would be great by the way) is a promotion and relegation system. That moves high spending team away from you.

The other thing real baseball doesn't have is an unlimited number of identical players from the entire history of baseball. I mean there is nothing to even compare to PT other than the baseball terminology and familiar names. You couldn't even spend $10 billion in MLB because most of the best players are under team control.

[mcdog512]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

The other thing real baseball doesn't have is an unlimited number of identical players from the entire history of baseball. I mean there is nothing to even compare to PT other than the baseball terminology and familiar names. You couldn't even spend $10 billion in MLB because most of the best players are under team control.

Let's not devolve this into a realism discussion. In single player OOTP as in real baseball I can reel in several top players with straight up cash homey.

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by mcdog512

Let's not devolve this into a realism discussion. In single player OOTP as in real baseball I can reel in several top players with straight up cash homey.

The realism comment was what I disagreed with.

There are not nearly as many top players available to a team with an unlimited budget in MLB as there are to PT players who are shopping on the AH. If you disagree with that, I'll just agree to disagree.

[matingly23]

My other team is going to the WS, yeah!

They get to be served up to the Whale God for $$!!! What FUN!!

[mcdog512]

Originally Posted by matingly23

My other team is going to the WS, yeah!

They get to be served up to the Whale God for $$!!! What FUN!!

Relentless aren't you. You made your point already.

[Mat]

This is an amazing idea.

I am sure the developers never considered this!

[Kushiel]

Every kind of cap imaginable has been thrown out by now. Ratings caps too, this is not new.

I am with Zorro, the best teams only have a handful of perfects. The rest of their team rosters as he said are low to mid diamonds and golds

[imhoff2]

Originally Posted by matingly23

My other team is going to the WS, yeah!

They get to be served up to the Whale God for $$!!! What FUN!!

Wait.

Are you complaining that you won more games than you lost and made the playoffs?

Or are complaining that your team made the playoffs and advanced to the World Series?

Or are you complaining that you don’t think you can compete in the next season, even though you beat out 28 teams in your current season?

Or are you complaining that once you reach the ultimate level of this game you won’t be able to complete?

I’m confused...


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