Let's talk starting pitcher stamina

[AlpineSK]

Originally Posted by Shake Appeal

I've observed the same thing, and I'd argue a user hitting "new standard game" shouldn't have to ever think about "autocalc" or multipliers to get an approximation of 2021 baseball.

This. 100% this. Most users are not adapt at messing with these sorts of settings. Prior to 20, I never touched them but this has been an issue for a few years now.

[slugga27]

Originally Posted by AlpineSK

This. 100% this. Most users are not adapt at messing with these sorts of settings. Prior to 20, I never touched them but this has been an issue for a few years now.

It's been longer than a few years. This is not my first (or second) thread created dedicated to this issue.

[slugga27]

I started a fresh MLB standard game and three games in...I'm rolling my eyes. Sample size is small...I will not dispute that. However, what I am observing is alarming even for a three-game sample size.

As the Mariners, in all three games, my starting pitcher has thrown exactly 88 pitches. I've been doing mound visits to track the responses, and I'm frequently getting the response of "Obviously I can still pitch, but it's your call." Translation: I can keep going if you need me, but get me out ASAP.

Meanwhile, on the other side of the ledger for the opposing GIants, the pitch counts have been 111; 126; and 110. So it begs the question...why are my pitchers seeing such a huge discrepancy?

Here are the stamina matchups, my pitcher first.

66 vs. 71
72 vs. 77
69 vs. 94

Note: I understand "scouted" vs. 100%. Scouting accuracy for me is Normal.

I can understand the third game, where Johnny Cueto was the pitcher for the GIants. Somewhat. But what is with the huge discrepancy in the other games?

So this is concerning, because it's as if the user's pitchers are being held down stamina-wise. I should also note that this is with Build 34, and I increased the stamina setting to Low. I did not touch the stamina modifier, which is at .962 by default.

If I adjust the modifier, who knows what could happen, because it would also affect non-user controlled pitchers. If we've got a 71 stamina (out of 100) at 110 pitches, it's reasonable to believe that increasing the modifier would push that number higher.

[OutS|der]

Originally Posted by slugga27

I started a fresh MLB standard game and three games in...I'm rolling my eyes. Sample size is small...I will not dispute that. However, what I am observing is alarming even for a three-game sample size.

As the Mariners, in all three games, my starting pitcher has thrown exactly 88 pitches. I've been doing mound visits to track the responses, and I'm frequently getting the response of "Obviously I can still pitch, but it's your call." Translation: I can keep going if you need me, but get me out ASAP.

Meanwhile, on the other side of the ledger for the opposing GIants, the pitch counts have been 111; 126; and 110. So it begs the question...why are my pitchers seeing such a huge discrepancy?

Here are the stamina matchups, my pitcher first.

66 vs. 71
72 vs. 77
69 vs. 94

Note: I understand "scouted" vs. 100%. Scouting accuracy for me is Normal.

I can understand the third game, where Johnny Cueto was the pitcher for the GIants. Somewhat. But what is with the huge discrepancy in the other games?

So this is concerning, because it's as if the user's pitchers are being held down stamina-wise. I should also note that this is with Build 34, and I increased the stamina setting to Low. I did not touch the stamina modifier, which is at .962 by default.

If I adjust the modifier, who knows what could happen, because it would also affect non-user controlled pitchers. If we've got a 71 stamina (out of 100) at 110 pitches, it's reasonable to believe that increasing the modifier would push that number higher.

Are you able to share the actual stamina ratings in the editor? Scouting on normal throws all accuracy and comparison out the window.
66 vs. 71 is what your scout sees the ratings as, not what the AI or even the game sees it as.

[slugga27]

Originally Posted by OutS|der

Are you able to share the actual stamina ratings in the editor? Scouting on normal throws all accuracy and comparison out the window.
66 vs. 71 is what your scout sees the ratings as, not what the AI or even the game sees it as.

Fair. I’ll post later today.


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[OutS|der]

Originally Posted by slugga27

Fair. I’ll post later today.


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Thanks. I know there's a lot of factors that go into Pitcher usage and I agree it needs an overhaul.

Also to me "Obviously I can still pitch, but it's your call." says to me he still has juice left and wants to finish the inning but understands if you want him out. So if at 88 pitches should be able to give 10-20 more

[Matt Arnold]

Yeah, that comment comes up if he's within about 15 pitches of his limit, give or take. The comment is actually "Obviously, it's your call, but I can still pitch", which does ever so slightly change the interpretation. So if you're pulling them when you see that comment, that could be another reason why you're seeing significantly lower pitch counts than the AI.

[slugga27]

Here's the editor info. Remember, for this sample, all three of my pitchers went 88 pitches (coincidence, not by design). My pitcher stamina on top; AI on bottom

Game 1 (88 pitches vs. 111 pitches)
135
143

Game 2 (88 pitches vs. 126 pitches)
144
153

Game 3 (88 pitches vs. 110)
132
185

I want to specifically call out game 2. Their pitcher threw 126!!! pitches with a 153 stamina rating.

[timmermac]

This is why I always set SP stamina to very high. I like my pitchers to go very deep into games, getting as many CG's as possible.

[OutS|der]

Originally Posted by slugga27

Here's the editor info. Remember, for this sample, all three of my pitchers went 88 pitches (coincidence, not by design). My pitcher stamina on top; AI on bottom

Game 1 (88 pitches vs. 111 pitches)
135
143

Game 2 (88 pitches vs. 126 pitches)
144
153

Game 3 (88 pitches vs. 110)
132
185

I want to specifically call out game 2. Their pitcher threw 126!!! pitches with a 153 stamina rating.

You need to dig deeper into why Game 2 had that pitch count.
I can't help but look at Game 3 and see nothing wrong or even an issue where they didn't throw enough pitches.
If you're pulling your guy at 88 pitches and "Obviously, it's your call, but I can still pitch" then you would be closer to 103 pitches if you left them, which is what the AI could be doing. At that the difference is negligible and runs into small sample size issues. Game 2 gets evened out by Game 3

[slugga27]

Originally Posted by OutS|der

You need to dig deeper into why Game 2 had that pitch count.
I can't help but look at Game 3 and see nothing wrong or even an issue where they didn't throw enough pitches.
If you're pulling your guy at 88 pitches and "Obviously, it's your call, but I can still pitch" then you would be closer to 103 pitches if you left them, which is what the AI could be doing. At that the difference is negligible and runs into small sample size issues. Game 2 gets evened out by Game 3

I didn't see anything overtly strange in Game 2.

However, now I'm an additional game into the season. I took a look league-wide for pitch counts. FIFTY pitchers in the first four days of the season threw over 100 pitches. 26 pitchers threw 110+ and eight threw 120+.

Something is wrong. This is with stamina on low with hook at minus-3.

Edit: Due to time constraints, I had to exit out and I'll take a closer look later. However, I noticed that one of the 120+ outings was in five innings. I invite anyone to show me a recent (last decade) game where this has happened in real life.

[Dave Stieb II]

I just had a great, uplifting, envigorating opening day experience regarding this issue and thought I should post it. I hope it extends into the season.
I always start multiple saves while the devs iron out the bugs so I started a new save (my second) with SF.
Only 2 SP threw more than 100 pitches on opening day:
Brandon Woodruff, 65 stamina (and no I did not check the editor), threw 109 pitches over 8 IP in a gem.
Zack Greinke, 70 stamina (and no I did not check the editor, some things you accept at face value) threw 104 pitches over a less than sterling 5 IP.
And I note: Old school Dusty is the manager in Houston and might very well be geared toward working SP's longer than most managers today.
That's it. Only two. Very good. Very, very good.
A few guys who pitched effectively went into the 90's.
A lot of guys, many who also were pretty good on opening day, threw in the mid-80's.
As for my played out game, Gausman, a 65 stamina (and no I did not check under the hood), took a no hitter into the 6th. He ended up allowing only 3 hits, 1 run through 6.2 and was in the 90's. When I visited him, he told me he had "a couple batters left in him". (HIs meter had just arrived at the red.) We all know that could be true, but it might just be a pitcher trying to stay in the game. I gave him the hook.
But the point is: In game and simmed games pitch counts were very similar and very realistic.
So what were the settings?
That's interesting.
As I forwarded to opening day, I saw the banner up top saying that the engine was calculating MLB stats for the year.
I thought maybe i would pass on doing an auto calc this time. But when I saw the modifier was 1.25-something and the SP hook -1 I had 2nd thoughts.
So I ran the auto calc and these were the settings for the engine that produced a near perfect opening day re this issue IMO.
Modifier 1.1
SP Hook -5 (Very Quick)
Pitcher Stamina Very Low.

And for you Giants fans, NO the BP did not blow our 6-1 lead.
Thank Goodness.
To blow a lead like that on opening day would just be entirely unrealistic and belong in another thread.

[Dave Stieb II]

Day 2 follow up - things look even better.
Crusty old veteran Lance Lynn (White Sox) throws 98 pitches through 5 mediocre innings for the high count of the day. He plays for crusty old manager Tony LaRussa.
Makes perfect sense to me.
Most pitchers with decent stamina are in the high-80's; a couple in the low to mid 90's. (fewer games)
And, as we start to get into lower stamina SP, Ohtani was pulled after 60-odd pitches in a 'meh' start.
In the played out game, Marco Gonzalez started for Seattle and Jose Quintana, acquired from LAA started for the Giants. Both have 60 stamina (no, I didn't check under the hood). Both threw well. Both went 7 IP, 2 runs allowed, never in any serious trouble aside from one inning each when the runs were scored.
Gonzalez threw 95 pitches and was near the end of his rope for the Mariners.
Quintana threw 87 pitches for me.
My concern has always been uniformity between the played out games and the simmed games and, secondly, reasonable pitch counts for SP's in 2021.
The results in the first two days of the season are closer to perfect than I have any reasonable right to expect.
A few more days of this and I will stop checking pitch counts and just enjoy the game again.

[slugga27]

Originally Posted by Dave Stieb II

Day 2 follow up - things look even better.
Crusty old veteran Lance Lynn (White Sox) throws 98 pitches through 5 mediocre innings for the high count of the day. He plays for crusty old manager Tony LaRussa.
Makes perfect sense to me.
Most pitchers with decent stamina are in the high-80's; a couple in the low to mid 90's. (fewer games)
And, as we start to get into lower stamina SP, Ohtani was pulled after 60-odd pitches in a 'meh' start.
In the played out game, Marco Gonzalez started for Seattle and Jose Quintana, acquired from LAA started for the Giants. Both have 60 stamina (no, I didn't check under the hood). Both threw well. Both went 7 IP, 2 runs allowed, never in any serious trouble aside from one inning each when the runs were scored.
Gonzalez threw 95 pitches and was near the end of his rope for the Mariners.
Quintana threw 87 pitches for me.
My concern has always been uniformity between the played out games and the simmed games and, secondly, reasonable pitch counts for SP's in 2021.
The results in the first two days of the season are closer to perfect than I have any reasonable right to expect.
A few more days of this and I will stop checking pitch counts and just enjoy the game again.

This is encouraging. I’ll move the hook to -5 and see what happens. I had it on -3.


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[LeftHandPath]

I think the new patch massed up the coefficients in the Stats & AI screen completley.

At Opening day 2021 these coefficients change in random fashion from the default coefficients at game start. That does not only apply for pitching stamina, but also for all other coefficients like balks, sac flies, etc.
If you are not aware for this, this leads to highly unrealistic and partially absurd results (I have seen two no-hitters been thrown at opening day).

Here is the proof:
I started a new standard game. No changes in the settings were applied (I think that is what 80%+ of all other users do, who do not care that much about those "deeper details" and just want to play the game.)
I checked the coefficients in the stats & AI section at game creation and at opening day.
I did this multiple times to check if there are any differences.

This is what the coefficients look at game creation for every game I created. I think these are the "intended" default settings.



Now here is my point:
When you get to Opening Day, all these coefficients are totally messed up. Each game I created had totally different settings at Opening Day!
Here are three examples: Every game had the same (default) settings at game creation:

Game 1:


Game 2:


Game 3:


As you see, these differences are huge. Starting Pitchers stamina ranges from .971 to 1.201 in that very small sample. I also had games with a coefficient above 1.3!
Furthermore, the setting for Hook for Starting Pitchers is interesting, too.
The default setting at game creation is +2 slow. At Opening Day I saw changes to either to default or even -1.

I highly doubt that this is intended as these settings lead to a whole different game environment. In my opinion this issue should be fixed as soon as possible.

Shall I post these findings in the bug section, too?

EDIT:
As my knowledge about this part of the game settings is kind of limited, I created a game with "automatically adjust league totals modofiers for accuracy" unticked.
The coefficients (obviously) did not change. So I assume, that the "adjustment process" do not work properly after the latest patch.

[Dave Stieb II]

This is interesting and mirrors what I saw in the latest save I referenced above BEFORE I did an auto calc on the morning of opening day - which provided the settings that are working well re: pitch counts.
I wasn't nearly as thorough as you, but I did have my eye on the pitch count related areas and the vast change as I forwarded to opening day, and then again when I auto calced, is similar to what you've posted.
This is my fifth consecutive version of the game. When I first started, I never even looked at the Stats and AI page. Then, as I followed these forums, more experienced players - the ones who contribute positively and constructively - suggested strongly that you hit the auto calc button (once!) just before starting play on opening day. (you can't auto calc after the season begins)
Some suggested auto calcing a day or two before opening day would suffice. But from what I witnessed, and per your experiences, I'm not so sure it shouldn't wait until the morning of opening day. Because the co-efficients definitely changed from the originals to what happend overnight into opening day to after the auto calc.

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by slugga27

This is encouraging. I’ll move the hook to -5 and see what happens. I had it on -3.


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I've now played through Monday, April 5th and the results remain consistent and realistic - maybe even moreso now that we are seeing the back of the rotation guys. Won't bore with all the details.

[LeftHandPath]

Originally Posted by Dave Stieb II

This is interesting and mirrors what I saw in the latest save I referenced above BEFORE I did an auto calc on the morning of opening day - which provided the settings that are working well in my current save.
I wasn't nearly as thorough as you, but I did have my eye on the pitch count related areas and the vast change as I forwarded to opening day, and then again when I auto calced, is similar to what you've posted.
This is my fifth consecutive version of the game. When I first started, I never even looked at the Stats and AI page. Then, as I followed these forums, more experienced players - the ones who contribute positively and constructively - suggested strongly that you hit the auto calc button (once!) just before starting play on opening day. (you can't auto calc after the season begins)
Some suggested auto calcing a day or two before opening day would suffice. But from what I witnessed, and per your experiences, I'm not so sure it shouldn't wait until the morning of opening day. Because the co-efficients definitely changed from the originals to what happend overnight into opening day to after the auto calc.

I don't think that this is intended. If you leave everything on the default settings you can once get a modifier for starting pitcher stamina around .95 and once around 1.3. This difference alone has a huge impact on your game.
That in mind I would recommend unticking the adjust modifiers box before the opening day of the first season and maybe check it afterwards.
For my new game which I created yesterday, I had 3 shoutout wins on opening day with a pitch cound of 130+ for these starters. After I noticed that, I changed all modifiers to the default ones, as I would have unchecked the box for modifiers adjustments.

[Dave Stieb II]

I'm not sure I fully understand.
I wasn't referencing the 'adjust modifiers' checkbox at all. It is way too early for me to know how things will 'adjust' or won't 'adjust' over the course of the season.
I am referring to the 'auto calc' button.
We both experienced the initial co-efficients changing drastically as we forwarded into opening day. (i.e. my SP modifier went from .95-something to 1.2-something)
So I understand and agree with you to that point.

Then, on the morning of opening day, I hit the auto calc button (once!) and the co-efficients changed drastically again, leading to settings that are producing results I really like and I think are realistic - at least with regards to pitch counts. (It would be too early to make judgements in any other area).

You kind of lost me in referencing the 'adjust modifiers' checkbox.

[LeftHandPath]

Originally Posted by Dave Stieb II

I'm not sure I fully understand.
I wasn't referencing the 'adjust modifiers' checkbox at all. It is way too early for me to know how things will 'adjust' or won't 'adjust' over the course of the season.
I am referring to the 'auto calc' button.
We both experienced the initial co-efficients changing drastically as we forwarded into opening day. (i.e. my SP modifier went from .95-something to 1.2-something)
So I understand and agree with you to that point.

Then, on the morning of opening day, I hit the auto calc button (once!) and the co-efficients changed drastically again, leading to settings that are producing results I really like and I think are realistic - at least with regards to pitch counts. (It would be too early to make judgements in any other area).

You kind of lost me in referencing the 'adjust modifiers' checkbox.

Auto-calc clealy does not solve the problem I mentioned above.
I did a quick test and created a couple of games. After doind the auto-calc on opening day I had huge deviations regarding SP stamina.
Once I had values around 0.95, and once around 1.25.
In my opinion, if you run a game with default settings you should enter a default baseball world. But with such huge deviations, which appear to be randomly assigned, the game can develop into total different directions.